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FM
Former Member

Failure to address deep racial division before oil, another huge mistake by Govt. – Ramson


 

“We risk being taken advantage of by those who love the divide and conquer technique; and, if we perfect the division on our own, then we really making it easy for the outsiders.”

 

By Abena Rockcliffe-Campbell

“Blacks are thieves and hardcore criminals; Indians are greedy, scamps.

Attorney-at-Law and former MP, Charles Ramson

“Unfortunately, in this day and age, this is how we see each other. But one of the worst things that we can do to ourselves as a nation is to allow this sort of division to continue as we move closer to becoming an oil producing nation.”
Attorney-at-law and politician, Charles Ramson Junior said this yesterday during an interview with this newspaper.


He recalled his comments of Guyana’s state of ill preparedness for oil in face of the likelihood that production will begin next year.


Ramson said, “Remember I spoke about the fact that the government has little in place to manage the sector? I highlighted the fact that we have absolutely no policy in place, no Sovereign Wealth Fund, no Local Content Policy and a very small budget for the Department of Energy. Well all of that is bad and tell us that we will struggle. But, just as bad is the fact that the government is doing little to nothing to address the deep racial division that exists in our country.”


The former People’s Progressive Party/ Civic (PPP/C) Member of Parliament said that oil often brings its own problems, “Literally too numerous to mention.”
Ramson said that the government has been warned about how oil can destroy a country with ethnic rivalry.


The lawyer recalled that the Carter Center had warned, in a report following the 2015 election, that the “anticipated influx of oil revenue has the potential to exacerbate ethnic and political conflicts.”
Ramson said that the Carter Center spoke about that as it highlighted the need for Constitutional Reform.


Ramson said that if Guyana continues on its current trajectory, the country would never reach the “potential of which we, politicians, like to speak.”
The lawyer said that one of the most dangerous things about deep division in an oil producing country is that “we risk being taken advantage by those who love the divide and conquer technique and if we create the division on our own, then we really making it easy for the outsiders.”


“Only recently, I spoke extensively about the need to address division. This was at the forum hosted by the Institute of Chartered Accountants.” He said that the topic then was, “a changing society from the controversial and often understudied perspective of race looking specifically at a way forward.”


Ramson said that, during his presentation, he made reference to the many daily comments on Facebook that spew race hate. “But I also pointed out that things can get worse.”


The lawyer said that he is convinced that Guyanese cannot continue to ignore the racial issues with the hope that somehow, time will heal all wounds and the problem will fix itself.
“Why am I convinced of this? Well, it has been 180 years since the two main races have been here together and things vacillate from good to bad to good to bad in a perpetual cyclical way.”


Ramson said that a read of the Report of the Wismar, Christianburg, Mackenzie Commission, termed the “Wismar Report” gives a good understanding into how bad things were and how bad it can get.


He said that the report was a result of the enquiry of a Commission appointed in 1964 by the Governor of British Guiana into what is famously called the Wismar Massacre.
Ramson recalled that the Wismar Massacre was a race war when people were killed, homes were burned; buses and a boat were bombed; women were raped and many were beaten and maimed.


Ramson said, “This has left generational scarring. And if you think we are so far from that today, think again. As recent as May 2015, at the end of the election, we were on the precipice of something similar when the two main ethnic groups were arming and preparing themselves to come to Georgetown, which would have resulted in a lot of bloodshed. This was only averted when a call was made in my presence, having discovered what was taking place, for one of the two groups to stand down.”
“On the bright side, I genuinely feel that the mood of the nation is that we are ready to move on but we just do not know how,” said Ramson.


The politician said that the time to act, in order to minimize the risks of the bad that can happen, is yesterday.


He said that while he feels that too much time has been wasted, government can still make efforts to address the division.


He said that a simple but effective step would be to make the work force equal.
According to Ramson, “A fierce battle to obtain and protect state jobs created a totally unbalanced and unfair state employment. Have a look at the public service and you will see domination by one ethnic group. When you add to that the security forces – the police, and the army – the distrust really starts to resonate. No society can be at ease with itself once there is distrust especially in the state institutions, which you depend on for your protection.”


He said that there needs to be housing programmes that can foster integrated living.


Ramson said, “Generally, as we moved out of Africa, we changed our pigmentation together. So the point is we are not only comfortable in our own skin but among our own skin –this comfort is instinctive. So that is the basis of our race instincts. It’s tribal. But, it should not mean that we cannot live together.”


“The construct of how we live breeds racial conflict and tension leading to racism. We have black villages like Nabacalis, Buxton, Victoria. Then we have Indian villages like Enterprise and Annandale. Even within our capital, we have pockets of areas where you find mostly Indians—Prasad Nagar and Campbellville on the Western Side of Sheriff and other areas where there are mostly blacks such as Tucville, Albouystown, and South Ruimveldt.”


Ramson said that a serious effort now has to be made to focus on building social housing upwards within the city. He said that should be allocated to persons based on the principle of racial integration. “If we cannot literally live together, we really are just skirting around the issue.”


Ramson said that schools must now look to teach racial integration.
“Our education system is no longer fit for purpose in a modern world where the market dominates our way of life. Reading, writing and math are important yes, but we need more.


Ramson said that each citizen also has his or her role to play.


“We have bought into this notion that unless I look like you, I cannot represent you and there are politicians who, for selfish purposes, reinforce that destructive notion throughout the generations.” He said that it is time citizens put aside racial politics and vote for policies. The country needs young fresh leadership.


“Our society will never be able to be at ease with itself and will never be able to develop and realize its full potential if we do not fix it. And what happens if we do not, well, we keep fighting ourselves and foreign agents enter our world and capitalize on our division taking the lion’s share of our natural resources.”

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Nehru posted:

Stupid question, equivalent to "If shit had wings!"!

If it did, just imagine how many times your lips would be parted in order for wingedshit be set free?

cain
Last edited by cain
Nehru posted:

Being DUMB is the highlight of your life!!!

LMFAO . Dis from one of the MOST STUPID people posting hay. At least bramananananana man know when fuh run away when he get cornered. But not dis louse! He gon push mo shit out LOL.

FM
antabanta posted:
Nehru posted:

Stupid question, equivalent to "If shit had wings!"!

How so? Because the reality of these issues just dawned upon him?

Ah tink Charles muss be start reading hay. Couple of oogli man posts would clue he in. Ms. Haniffa duz apparently keep Rat Man informed suh wouldn't be surprised if Freedumb House duz tune in. The race issue relative to new wealth was discussed hay a while back!

FM
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Did you even read the article? It clearly mentionsnthe link to oil. PNC in power now and they sewed even more racial division by ther harsh treatment of Indos. They had 3 1/2 years since oil was discovered to sew the seeds of racial reconciliation, but instead they chose to treat Indos as second class citizens.

FM
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Did you even read the article? It clearly mentionsnthe link to oil. PNC in power now and they sewed even more racial division by ther harsh treatment of Indos. They had 3 1/2 years since oil was discovered to sew the seeds of racial reconciliation, but instead they chose to treat Indos as second class citizens.

  So you're saying without the discovery of oil there is no need for racial reconciliation? Or are you saying that without the discovery of oil, Ramson wouldn't be concerned about the racial divide?

A
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Because Exxon waited until five days after 2015 election to announce the oil discovery.

Bibi Haniffa
Bibi Haniffa posted:
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Because Exxon waited until five days after 2015 election to announce the oil discovery.

Shouldn't the PPP be seeking racial reconciliation all along, oil not withstanding? After all, alyuh seh dem is de best party, gat all geniuses, honest to de bone and much, much betta dan dem "evil" black man, no? Why dem continue burnhamite policy when it comes to race?

FM
Bibi Haniffa posted:
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Because Exxon waited until five days after 2015 election to announce the oil discovery.

I reiterate.... "So you're saying without the discovery of oil there is no need for racial reconciliation? Or are you saying that without the discovery of oil, Ramson wouldn't be concerned about the racial divide?"

A

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr. At this stage it's pointless to talk about consolidating support base and taking back the country. Older party leaders should heed well-intentioned advice from intelligent younger leaders.

FM

Once upon a time, we wish to believe that there was no racial divide. It was always there, stifled. The Split of 1955 was the aperture for its venting. 

Unless, one was there to observe how decent black folks behaved that day, it cannot be grasped by assumption of blames. Each community experienced it differently.

It is not that Guyanese cannot move forward together, the stumbling block is leadership. Such a leader cannot be black, indian or amerindian. Foremost, he has to be a Guyanese of the thinking, contrary to his ethnic group. 

The country needs a charismatic fella who remembers that when he gets elected he doan run off to his kith and kin. Granger was the last hope. Before him was Jagdeo, he was young and the future was sought in him.

The country is without life, lack of leadership is death. Oil is about to bury it. 

The bigots would not mourn, as citizens they had nothing good to say about eachother.

 

S
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Who knows, he is young and maybe would do things differently.  When the PPP was in power, BJ called the shots, and anyone who disagreed was put in the doghouse.   That article he wrote a while ago seem to vent frustration with BJs cabal.   If the PPP loses in 2020, these guys will become more vocal for a new direction.  

Baseman
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Did you even read the article? It clearly mentionsnthe link to oil. PNC in power now and they sewed even more racial division by ther harsh treatment of Indos. They had 3 1/2 years since oil was discovered to sew the seeds of racial reconciliation, but instead they chose to treat Indos as second class citizens.

  So you're saying without the discovery of oil there is no need for racial reconciliation? Or are you saying that without the discovery of oil, Ramson wouldn't be concerned about the racial divide?

You as usual straying from the topic with these sidebars with the intent to deflect from the fact that PNC in power has seen the chasm of racial divide grow even deeper and wider.  Whatever gains the PPP made in bending over backwards for Afros were wiped out in a single blow by PNC when they proceeded to systematically purge Indos from the public sector. This is well documented so you folks who seek to rewrite history will have a hard time erasing these events at the hand of PNC.  I am not saying that PPP were angels when in power, they kept the public sector 99.9% Afro and every Black who joined the PPP were called stooges by you folks. They erroneously tried the path of appeasement and failed as they were given the boot in 2015. The PnC with their slow fiah mo fiah mantra and systematic targeting Indos for robbery, killing, brutalizing and rape has seen to it that this view of Afro is cemented in the Indo psyche. 

FM
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

He wouldn't as his perspectives are very Indian, other than admitting to some anti black stereotypes that presumably some Indians have.

The reason why the public sector is ethnically imbalanced is because much of the private sector also is.  It was so in the colonial era and this is true today, even if not to the same extent. So if blacks struggle to find employment above that of a security guard or cashier in the private sector then they will be limited to the public sector.  

This is not a matter of who owns which corporations because I bet you that most Guyanese Indians will be upset if they were told that they cannot receive a promotion because it is a white owned company.  This is about people being viewed in terms of their individual skills, expertise and mindset and not on their ethnicity.  In Guyana ethnicity is often the determining factor in who is employed and/or promoted.

When Guyanese of each ethnic group listen and learn to empathize with those of other groups then a solution will be found.  If we feel that the Wismar riots matter but not the Son Chapman, or the other way around, then we go nowhere.

The issues that matter aren't at the micro individual level.  Yes bigots exist but they aren't the defining element.  Its at the MACRO level where there is distrust.  While Campbellville might be majority Indian, it isn't exclusively so and I doubt that the neighbors are throwing rocks at each other or giving each other "cut eye".

FM
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Seems like all valid points. Why did he not raise them when the PPP was in power and had the authority to implement change?

Did you even read the article? It clearly mentionsnthe link to oil. PNC in power now and they sewed even more racial division by ther harsh treatment of Indos. They had 3 1/2 years since oil was discovered to sew the seeds of racial reconciliation, but instead they chose to treat Indos as second class citizens.

The fact that you didn't notice or refuse to admit that the PPP was equally guilty of sewing racial division just shows that you have nothing to add ro this topic.   If you seriously think that blacks and mixed people don't harbor serious disaffection with the PPP and the Indian elites then clearly you remain ignorant on this issue.

FM
antabanta posted:
 

  So you're saying without the discovery of oil there is no need for racial reconciliation? Or are you saying that without the discovery of oil, Ramson wouldn't be concerned about the racial divide?

Well apparently this didn't bother him until recently even though he admits that this issue isn't recent.

How come he didn't bring this up before?

FM
Gilbakka posted:

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr.

He isn't that impressive.  Note:

1.  He only speaks of Wismar.

2. He only shows concern for sectors where blacks are over represented.

Please tell me what assurance does he bring to blacks that he will ensure fair access, aside from telling Indians to be more polite to blacks.  He hasn't even bothered to understand why Africans feel the same ethnic distress that he indicates that Indians do.

FM
Drugb posted:
I am not saying that PPP were angels when in power, they kept the public sector 99.9% Afro and every Black who joined the PPP were called stooges by you folks.

Please don't say this because when Luncheon was asked why in LEADERSHIP positions blacks were absent, his response was that he didn't know and then trotted out the Indo KKK explanation querying how qualified blacks were to hold these positions.

The low paid slots were 99% blacks because Indians laugh at these jobs and call them work only suitable for "lazy black man".   And if 99.9% of the TOP JOBS were held by blacks then why the squeals about Indians being dismissed. Based on your rant there shouldn't have been any Indians to dismiss.

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr.

He isn't that impressive.  Note:

1.  He only speaks of Wismar.

2. He only shows concern for sectors where blacks are over represented.

Please tell me what assurance does he bring to blacks that he will ensure fair access, aside from telling Indians to be more polite to blacks.  He hasn't even bothered to understand why Africans feel the same ethnic distress that he indicates that Indians do.

One small step is better than no step. I think he is on the right track. As he ages and gains experience he should improve. 

FM
caribny posted:

Please don't say this because when Luncheon was asked why in LEADERSHIP positions blacks were absent, his response was that he didn't know and then trotted out the Indo KKK explanation querying how qualified blacks were to hold these positions.

 

 

Don't know which leadership positions you were referring. Some positions are political appointments which goes to party insiders. If Blacks refuse to join PPP who gave them milk, then there is not much to be done.  As I remember throughtout the public sector, the majority of leaders were pnc operatives who came up through the ranks.  

What PNC did was a systematical purging of Indos from non political positions, depriving them of a living. People will remember this. 

FM
Gilbakka posted:
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr.

He isn't that impressive.  Note:

1.  He only speaks of Wismar.

2. He only shows concern for sectors where blacks are over represented.

Please tell me what assurance does he bring to blacks that he will ensure fair access, aside from telling Indians to be more polite to blacks.  He hasn't even bothered to understand why Africans feel the same ethnic distress that he indicates that Indians do.

One small step is better than no step. I think he is on the right track. As he ages and gains experience he should improve. 

That young man came from a family of seasoned politicians and from both sides of the isles. Also he was an MP before taking leave to study in England.

K
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr.

He isn't that impressive.  Note:

1.  He only speaks of Wismar.

2. He only shows concern for sectors where blacks are over represented.

Please tell me what assurance does he bring to blacks that he will ensure fair access, aside from telling Indians to be more polite to blacks.  He hasn't even bothered to understand why Africans feel the same ethnic distress that he indicates that Indians do.

Ayo black leader tell blacks this. He’s not the only one calling out blacks to better themselves. 

Granger Quote : “Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

FM
Gilbakka posted:
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

The PPP needs more balanced & outspoken activists like Charles Ramson Jnr.

He isn't that impressive.  Note:

1.  He only speaks of Wismar.

2. He only shows concern for sectors where blacks are over represented.

Please tell me what assurance does he bring to blacks that he will ensure fair access, aside from telling Indians to be more polite to blacks.  He hasn't even bothered to understand why Africans feel the same ethnic distress that he indicates that Indians do.

One small step is better than no step. I think he is on the right track. As he ages and gains experience he should improve. 

Yes. The small step is "bad black man, black to blame, only focus on what Indians want".  Then you think that blacks will be happy.

No wonder the PPP is so hated by the vast majority of blacks if this is the attitude that they bring!

FM
Drugb posted:
  

What PNC did was a systematical purging of Indos from non political positions, depriving them of a living. People will remember this. 

Just as how black people remember what the PPP did in 1992 and even worse when Jagdeo came to power.

Tit for tat!

FM
Dave posted:
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

 

Granger Quote : “Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

Let Granger tell black people that they are lazy (even as his administration is packed with useless people) and see how he will have to beg Jagdeo to pay his medical bills after 2020.

The mere factor that a racist like you so approves of Granger just shows how stupid his statements were. 

This is why Volda had to run out and chat her own brand of foolishness when black people said "good we aren't going to vote and we will see how unemployment suits you all after 2020".

FM
kp posted:
 

That young man came from a family of seasoned politicians and from both sides of the isles. Also he was an MP before taking leave to study in England.

Dont know and dont care what his pedigree is. This uttering from him just shows his plain Indian bias.  The man clearly doesn't know blacks so has no idea what their issues are.  Or maybe he just doesn't care.

He claimed that violence was narrowly avoided in 2015. 

He needs to ask himself what will happen if the PPP wins in 2020 and people fear a return of "ahbe pan tap, black man time done, ah tell you we gun tek way Guyana from dem black man, is not Burnham time so no wuk fuh you except clerical wuk".

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
Dave posted:
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

 

Granger Quote : “Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

Let Granger tell black people that they are lazy (even as his administration is packed with useless people) and see how he will have to beg Jagdeo to pay his medical bills after 2020.

The mere factor that a racist like you so approves of Granger just shows how stupid his statements were. 

This is why Volda had to run out and chat her own brand of foolishness when black people said "good we aren't going to vote and we will see how unemployment suits you all after 2020".

People like your racist self , need to have Granger words stamp on your forehead or have it hang around your neck everyday. 

“Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

FM
Dave posted:
caribny posted:
Dave posted:
caribny posted:
Gilbakka posted:

 

Granger Quote : “Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

Let Granger tell black people that they are lazy (even as his administration is packed with useless people) and see how he will have to beg Jagdeo to pay his medical bills after 2020.

The mere factor that a racist like you so approves of Granger just shows how stupid his statements were. 

This is why Volda had to run out and chat her own brand of foolishness when black people said "good we aren't going to vote and we will see how unemployment suits you all after 2020".

People like your racist self , need to have Granger words stamp on your forehead or have it hang around your neck everyday. 

“Do not be wicked and slothful, go out and use your talent to enrich yourselves and your children that is economic emancipation. No matter how much we sing and dance in the final analysis our lives will be determined by how we make our living. If we make our living by hanging around the corner and liming at the Guinness Bar, we will be forever poor but if we go into our farm, go into our workshop, go into our schools we will be able to bring prosperity,”

What do you know of t he man that you come with your ingrained racist slant on things to cast shade on his character? I posted a thread for commentary and all that has happened so far as been  a barrage of moaning about the sacred victimization curse that seems to have everyone marching in place.

Young Ramson spoke to what is an intractable problem. How it got this way or why it is this way is not the question. We are this way and are stuck and need to track ourselves out of it or we are doomed. That is his thesis and it is not one to be taken lightly because everywhere there is oil wealth and ethnic disunity there is or has been a protracted tribal war. It is what happens and we need to avoid it.

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
kp posted:
 

That young man came from a family of seasoned politicians and from both sides of the isles. Also he was an MP before taking leave to study in England.

Dont know and dont care what his pedigree is. This uttering from him just shows his plain Indian bias.  The man clearly doesn't know blacks so has no idea what their issues are.  Or maybe he just doesn't care.

He claimed that violence was narrowly avoided in 2015. 

He needs to ask himself what will happen if the PPP wins in 2020 and people fear a return of "ahbe pan tap, black man time done, ah tell you we gun tek way Guyana from dem black man, is not Burnham time so no wuk fuh you except clerical wuk".

Everyone of us has our biases. It is how we locate ourselves in the world. This man has his but takes a step in seeking understanding by acknowledging that our society has to move beyond this or give the curse of oil money we are doomed to decay into violence.

He does not need to ask himself anything. He already stated his understanding and is interrogating the society as to ways on how we can get beyond it as a people given each of us are contributive units to this awful ethnic divisions in the society. 

He is asking a seminal question. Anta asked similarly on another thread. Recounting who did what to whom should be sufficient to motivate us to the understanding that it is now what we want. 

Granger won on hope and change and he is not doing a damn thing. IF you know the PPP will retrace their old pathways why harp on t hat? Speak to what you know that would get us out of this socio political trap. No one needs to apologizes or promise to be better. We need systems in place; institutions to coerce us to be better people. All this whining about who did this or t hat is a waste of time. We want to know how to get systems in place to avoid being taken advantage of.

FM
caribny posted:

He needs to ask himself what will happen if the PPP wins in 2020 and people fear a return of "ahbe pan tap, black man time done, ah tell you we gun tek way Guyana from dem black man, is not Burnham time so no wuk fuh you except clerical wuk".

Is this any different from Volda's declaration?

A
caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
  

What PNC did was a systematical purging of Indos from non political positions, depriving them of a living. People will remember this. 

Just as how black people remember what the PPP did in 1992 and even worse when Jagdeo came to power.

Tit for tat!

Don't know about that as I wasn't following politics in Guyana then. What I do know is that the purge of Indos is recent and will be in peoples memory fresh. 

FM
antabanta posted:
caribny posted:

He needs to ask himself what will happen if the PPP wins in 2020 and people fear a return of "ahbe pan tap, black man time done, ah tell you we gun tek way Guyana from dem black man, is not Burnham time so no wuk fuh you except clerical wuk".

Is this any different from Volda's declaration?

This man Carib resorts to the racial card conveniently every time he is backed up in corner. The brother just can't help himself. 

Billy Ram Balgobin

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