Django posted:

Guyana's polarization of the two major races,fighting for turf came when Jagan and Burnham entered politics.

It will be disingenuous to link Luckhoo-Nunan Scheme with present day politics.

Just my two cents.

For all your research you deserve an honorary doctorate award. THAT will shut up Drugb who doggedly demeans your learnedness.

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

Guyana's polarization of the two major races,fighting for turf came when Jagan and Burnham entered politics.

It will be disingenuous to link Luckhoo-Nunan Scheme with present day politics.

Just my two cents.

For all your research you deserve an honorary doctorate award. THAT will shut up Drugb who doggedly demeans your learnedness.

Bhai,inquisitiveness is a bad thing,from a young age my mind was curious.

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

 

Listen dummy, don't cuss Indians for a PLAN the Brits had which the Indian Gov't torpedoed.  Now, go back and claim your space there rather than cussing and robbing someone of their space here!  Or go cuss the Queen!

The plan was developed by the East Indian leadership who solicited the British gov't for support.  If you cannot read don't comment.

So what's your point?  As I said, if you feel that strongly regarding your "space" down there, then pack up you grip and go take up your passion.  Your brothers waiting for you!

Why waste time here fighting for space in the White man's country!

Sorry baseman but MH cracked the truth in that Luckhood scheme. It was to ensure that the Indian population began to outnumber the combined black and colored populations.  The black and colored organizations sniffing a rat then demanded that immigration from the Caribbean also be encouraged.

Clearly it was cheaper to bring in workers from Jamaica, which at the time had massive migration if labor shortages were the only issue.  Clearly a political issue of ethnic dominance was the main goal.

Baseman posted:

 

So what's your point?  As I said, if you feel that strongly regarding your "space" down there, then pack up you grip and go take up your passion.  Your brothers waiting for you!

Why waste time here fighting for space in the White man's country!

OK I understand that this plot of Indian domination was exposed and now you no longer want it discussed.  This so you can resume your rant that Granger wants to annihilate Indians.

Django posted:

Guyana's polarization of the two major races,fighting for turf came when Jagan and Burnham entered politics.

It will be disingenuous to link Luckhoo-Nunan Scheme with present day politics.

Just my two cents.

In fact this race for dominance came long before Burnham and Jagan, which is why it was possible, because the seeds were already there.

If importing labor was the main focus then sources of labor closer to Guyana would have been tapped.  Bringing people all the way from India under the terms that Luckhoo wanted was expensive.  So what was his motive for this singular source?

caribny posted:

Django posted:

Guyana's polarization of the two major races,fighting for turf came when Jagan and Burnham entered politics.

It will be disingenuous to link Luckhoo-Nunan Scheme with present day politics.

Just my two cents.

In fact this race for dominance came long before Burnham and Jagan, which is why it was possible, because the seeds were already there.

If importing labor was the main focus then sources of labor closer to Guyana would have been tapped.  Bringing people all the way from India under the terms that Luckhoo wanted was expensive.  So what was his motive for this singular source?

I will disagree with the highlighted statement,from what i read there were no race dominance between the locals,the Plantation Owners were in control.There were not many Associations,notably there was the BGEIA and the Sugar Producers Association.

Regarding to tap of labor from the Caribbean,that will be for another research.After the ban on Indian Indentured Labor,Immigrants was sought from the coast of Africa.

Also after Emancipation of Slavery  there were economic decline on the plantations in British Guiana,hence the Indentured Laborers scheme started and the economy was reinvigorated.

caribny posted:

Sorry baseman but MH cracked the truth in that Luckhood scheme. It was to ensure that the Indian population began to outnumber the combined black and colored populations.  The black and colored organizations sniffing a rat then demanded that immigration from the Caribbean also be encouraged.

Clearly it was cheaper to bring in workers from Jamaica, which at the time had massive migration if labor shortages were the only issue.  Clearly a political issue of ethnic dominance was the main goal.

Sorry Caribj, I frankly don't give a shyte.  As I said, if you feel that strongly about your space there, then go and take up possession.  Its still there, all 83k Sq miles.  I'm sure Granger could fit you in easy!

BTW, the Indian population did outnumber the others without Guyana's Hindustan!  As I said, we sex up we women and dem get nuff nuff pickney!

Base, is not your fault that you are very fertile)))):

Dave posted:

Malcom Harripaul works for Granger at the Department Of Public Information. 

Django posted:

 

I will disagree with the highlighted statement,from what i read there were no race dominance between the locals,the Plantation Owners were in control.There were not many Associations,notably there was the BGEIA and the Sugar Producers Association.

Regarding to tap of labor from the Caribbean,that will be for another research.After the ban on Indian Indentured Labor,Immigrants was sought from the coast of Africa.

Also after Emancipation of Slavery  there were economic decline on the plantations in British Guiana,hence the Indentured Laborers scheme started and the economy was reinvigorated.

There was a decline after emancipation which was true of EVERY British West Indian sugar island, and in fact some like Nevis and Tobago even went out of production at that time.  Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts and Jamaica had ample labor supplies yet also experienced this decline.  Many planters went into bankruptcy and were forced to sell their plantations to their creditors as they couldn't repay their debts.  In fact some banks even failed.

The sugar plantations had to adjust from a system of free and controllable labor to one where the former slaves controlled the supply and also with the UK no longer given British West Indian sugar preference.  They bought the cheaper slave grown sugar from Cuba and Brazil and also beet sugar from France and Germany. 

Jamaicans went to Costa Rica and Panama to work on banana plantations (and also the railway and canal).  They went to Cuba to be involved in the sugar industry there. Given the dangers involved in living in Spanish speaking societies where the rule of law wasn't always certain I bet that Jamaica could have been a labor source, given that this would have been to another British colony.

The BGEIA had ambitions and those ambitions were based on a scheme to ensure that the Indian population outnumbered the combined black and colored populations.  Given that most groups in BG, aside from the plantation elites, suffered under the yoke of domination one would think that if race based competition wasn't the issue we would see more attempts at collaboration. 

But instead we see tit for tat.  The BGEIA wanted the Indian population to become numerically dominated so the black/colored leadership insisted on migration from the West Indies and Africa. By the early 20th C Africa had ceased to be a source of labor for anywhere in the Caribbean.  Africans were skeptical because of the history of slavery.  This ended once the illicit trade of enslaved people ended in the 1860s.

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Sorry baseman but MH cracked the truth in that Luckhood scheme. It was to ensure that the Indian population began to outnumber the combined black and colored populations.  The black and colored organizations sniffing a rat then demanded that immigration from the Caribbean also be encouraged.

Clearly it was cheaper to bring in workers from Jamaica, which at the time had massive migration if labor shortages were the only issue.  Clearly a political issue of ethnic dominance was the main goal.

Sorry Caribj, I frankly don't give a shyte.  As I said, if you feel that strongly about your space there, then go and take up possession.  Its still there, all 83k Sq miles.  I'm sure Granger could fit you in easy!

BTW, the Indian population did outnumber the others without Guyana's Hindustan!  As I said, we sex up we women and dem get nuff nuff pickney!

Clearly you do because you keep on responding to these posts. And in fact the paranoia of the black population of Indian domination was justified when we see what happened during the two periods of PPP rule. Apan jhat! 

Even people like Eusi, who hated Burnham from the beginning, were forced out of the PPP when they saw that it was a de facto racial party.  Yes that numeric superiority of the Indians encouraged the PPP to adopt this strategy. 

You will note that when Burnham left the PPP he took with him more than a few Indians, maybe the more urban, possibly non Hindu group.  He wasn't stupid so knew full well that a race based strategy prior to independence guaranteed losses for the PNC.

But keep on responding as clearly you do care about this topic.

caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

I will disagree with the highlighted statement,from what i read there were no race dominance between the locals,the Plantation Owners were in control.There were not many Associations,notably there was the BGEIA and the Sugar Producers Association.

Regarding to tap of labor from the Caribbean,that will be for another research.After the ban on Indian Indentured Labor,Immigrants was sought from the coast of Africa.

Also after Emancipation of Slavery  there were economic decline on the plantations in British Guiana,hence the Indentured Laborers scheme started and the economy was reinvigorated.

There was a decline after emancipation which was true of EVERY British West Indian sugar island, and in fact some like Nevis and Tobago even went out of production at that time.  Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts and Jamaica had ample labor supplies yet also experienced this decline.  Many planters went into bankruptcy and were forced to sell their plantations to their creditors as they couldn't repay their debts.  In fact some banks even failed.

The sugar plantations had to adjust from a system of free and controllable labor to one where the former slaves controlled the supply and also with the UK no longer given British West Indian sugar preference.  They bought the cheaper slave grown sugar from Cuba and Brazil and also beet sugar from France and Germany. 

Jamaicans went to Costa Rica and Panama to work on banana plantations (and also the railway and canal).  They went to Cuba to be involved in the sugar industry there. Given the dangers involved in living in Spanish speaking societies where the rule of law wasn't always certain I bet that Jamaica could have been a labor source, given that this would have been to another British colony.

The BGEIA had ambitions and those ambitions were based on a scheme to ensure that the Indian population outnumbered the combined black and colored populations.  Given that most groups in BG, aside from the plantation elites, suffered under the yoke of domination one would think that if race based competition wasn't the issue we would see more attempts at collaboration. 

But instead we see tit for tat.  The BGEIA wanted the Indian population to become numerically dominated so the black/colored leadership insisted on migration from the West Indies and Africa. By the early 20th C Africa had ceased to be a source of labor for anywhere in the Caribbean.  Africans were skeptical because of the history of slavery.  This ended once the illicit trade of enslaved people ended in the 1860s.

Will have to look more in to that theory.

I am aware in the early 1900's Jamaica,s population was around 1,000,000.

Django posted:

 

Will have to look more in to that theory.

I am aware in the early 1900's Jamaica,s population was around 1,000,000.

Jamaica was seen as a major source of labor by US interests who were involved in Latin America.  It was an extremely over populated island with a labor force very willing to migrate. Once they migrated they suffered abuse from both their US employers and the local Latin authorities.  They would have much preferred working in another British colony as the devil you know is better than the one that you don't.

It is also a fallacy that Guyana can support a huge population.  The interior soils are useless for farming and the sugar industry wanted to have control over the use of arable lands on the coast.  How many Indian immigrants moved to the interior at the time? And this despite the active gold, balata and timber industries that existed at the time. Almost none so this would have been just more people crowding the coast and exacerbating the already high unemployment levels which existed at the time.

This action was political and based on ethnic competition. The fact that the Indian gov't (which didn't even care about the poor of India itself) felt compelled to shut down indenture meant that the reality was that there was much abuse.  The BGEIA was trying to sell a bill of goods to India to entice their cooperation and they didn't buy into it.

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Quantum posted:

HOW DID THE PPP PERFECT ITS CHOKEHOLD ON INDIANS?  

.

 

mveldt Massacre, coming so soon after the Amritsar Massacre in India in April 1919, led to loud protests in India and a decision was taken to shelve the Colonisation Scheme thereby preventing the likelihood of Indians becoming two thirds of the population and the Africans becoming a small minority, as was the objective of J. A. Luckhoo and other Indian scholars who had supported the scheme.

 

Malcolm Harripaul 11-19-99

NB: First written in November 1999 and revised in January 2003

And here we see the real motives about the Indian Colonization plan.

Shut up your stupid ass, racist pig!

Indians just like sexing up dem wifey and mekking nuff nuff pickneys, a tradition brought from India.  There was no master plan to colonize anyone!

baseman, you need to ease up on the hysterics whenever facts do not fit neatly with received wisdom regarding the genetics of racial suspicion and conflict in Guyana

the BGEIA did have a project proposal to colonize Guyana with Indians from the sub continent

that was a century ago, but it is not a lie

LOL   There were 'responses' even before MH's article was posted.  Talk about jumping the gun!

Groan!  On this site, it's difficult to get resposes to the actual post. People either ignore it or don't see what the substance of the post is, and so they go off on a tangent. Then posters start bashing each other and it veers off even more!

Anyway, here goes:

Let me quote from my intro to MH's article:

The question is: who made Burnham’s rule possible? Who had majority support? Who was a shoo-in for national leader? Who dropped the ball? Who screwed up? Who had it all on a silver platter but - through ideological dogma, rigidity, blindness, dogged allegiance to the USSR and the Communist bloc, selfishness, ego, foolishness and stubbornness - threw it all away? That is the question.

And here is how MH himself saw the essential thrust of his essay. Quote:

The aim of this essay is to briefly outline how the PPP developed and perfected its chokehold on Indians in Guyana.

Hint: At the end of his essay, MH accurately and faithfully summarized the key points, point by point. Even if you find the essay too long to read, the summary will suffice.

Billy wrote:

He (MH) speaks as if the PPP indoctrinated the East Indian population with ideology and sent the western-educated ones in camps to be re-educated like what the Chinese and Cambodians did.   We know most Indians in Guyana do not know anything much about Marxist ideology.  We know if there was an intellectual class in Guyana it was miniscule and far away from the influence of the PPP.

No, it was not that extreme, and MH does not say that. What he does say, and is irrefutable, it the the Jagans and the PPP did not embrace or encourage the retention of what he calls "Indian consciousness". In fact, they actively wrote and spoke against (sometimes even acted against) prominent Indian who wanted to retain and promote their culture - branding them "racists". That is well documented. 

The second part of what you wrote is true; numerically, the Indian intellectual class was miniscule. But that simply reinforces another central point of MH's piece - which was the tragic disconnect between the ideological Jagan's / PPP and their simple uneducated rural supporters who, sadly, did not grasp the ideology the Jagans were pursuing and the dangers that it posed to Indians - which came true. We are based overseas, are we not?

Carib, you are a good contributor and I deplore any attacks on you of a racial nature. I have no problem with Hinds and Eusi having Afro-centric perspectives. I find many things about them admirable.  Those two have contributed to Guyana, paid their dues.  Also, I can see how the idea of Indians wanting to multiply and dominate (back then) would be upsetting to a black person.  Point taken.  The thing is that is not the central thrust of the article, which still remains unresponded to. 

Hint for responders: See the stuff in bold, above.

Cheers!

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

Listen dummy, don't cuss Indians for a PLAN the Brits had which the Indian Gov't torpedoed.  Now, go back and claim your space there rather than cussing and robbing someone of their space here!  Or go cuss the Queen!

The plan was developed by the East Indian leadership who solicited the British gov't for support.  If you cannot read don't comment.

So what's your point?

Baseman’s ‘debating’ skills . . .

lol

ronan posted:

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Quantum posted:

HOW DID THE PPP PERFECT ITS CHOKEHOLD ON INDIANS?  

.

 

mveldt Massacre, coming so soon after the Amritsar Massacre in India in April 1919, led to loud protests in India and a decision was taken to shelve the Colonisation Scheme thereby preventing the likelihood of Indians becoming two thirds of the population and the Africans becoming a small minority, as was the objective of J. A. Luckhoo and other Indian scholars who had supported the scheme.

 

Malcolm Harripaul 11-19-99

NB: First written in November 1999 and revised in January 2003

And here we see the real motives about the Indian Colonization plan.

Shut up your stupid ass, racist pig!

Indians just like sexing up dem wifey and mekking nuff nuff pickneys, a tradition brought from India.  There was no master plan to colonize anyone!

baseman, you need to ease up on the hysterics whenever facts do not fit neatly with received wisdom regarding the genetics of racial suspicion and conflict in Guyana

the BGEIA did have a project proposal to colonize Guyana with Indians from the sub continent

that was a century ago, but it is not a lie

Another Black lie. Divide the fcking country and done wid it. 

Prash will finally have his country ?

seignet posted:

ronan posted:

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Quantum posted:

HOW DID THE PPP PERFECT ITS CHOKEHOLD ON INDIANS?  .

Ruimveldt Massacre, coming so soon after the Amritsar Massacre in India in April 1919, led to loud protests in India and a decision was taken to shelve the Colonisation Scheme thereby preventing the likelihood of Indians becoming two thirds of the population and the Africans becoming a small minority, as was the objective of J. A. Luckhoo and other Indian scholars who had supported the scheme.

 

Malcolm Harripaul 11-19-99

NB: First written in November 1999 and revised in January 2003

And here we see the real motives about the Indian Colonization plan.

Shut up your stupid ass, racist pig!

Indians just like sexing up dem wifey and mekking nuff nuff pickneys, a tradition brought from India.  There was no master plan to colonize anyone!

baseman, you need to ease up on the hysterics whenever facts do not fit neatly with received wisdom regarding the genetics of racial suspicion and conflict in Guyana

the BGEIA did have a project proposal to colonize Guyana with Indians from the sub continent

that was a century ago, but it is not a lie

Another Black lie. Divide the fcking country and done wid it. 

oh really?

you and baseman (the other squealing hysteric) guh argue with Ravi Dev