caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

It was mentioned Racism was exacerbated in the 60's by both the PNC and PPP.The two major races weren't so much polarized before that period.

Also mentioned after India got Independence,Nehru said, East Indian Immigrants of British Colonies shouldn't look to India,pledge allegiance to the Country they reside.

Our Historians fail to mention such in their narratives.

The mere fact that Guyana descended into a violent civil war shows that people were very polarized.  Their feelings were subjugated but it was a quick trigger for all of this distrust to quickly manifest into dehumanizing violence.   The trigger was the impending departures of the colonialists, which opened up space for Indian vs. black (and maybe mixed) conflict to occur.  The colonial authorities kept both subjugated but their absence then meant that conflict began to occur. Each seeing Guyana as a zero sum game.

It is clear that the BGEIA did NOT see British Guiana as a multi ethnic/cultural/religious space where various groups should engage in mutually beneficial interactions.  They saw BG as a colony which Indians must numerically dominate.  And there were even wiling to pretend as if horrendous abuse of Indian indentures wasn't occurring.  This so that they could entice more Indians to migrate, not necessarily as indentures.

The fact that India felt compelled to tell Indo Caribbean people (and others) to shift their gaze from India in fact strengthens my contention that Indians did NOT see their place within a context of a multi ethnic/cultural/religious society.  Instead saw themselves as a separate "nation" sharing some "real estate" with other groups, but not having any interest in cooperation.  In fact continuing to see their role as carving out a piece of India in a piece of real estate located in South America.

D2 wanted an in depth discussion of Indo Guyanese cultural and ethnic identities, and how these melded into that of a diverse nation. He was called an Indian Hater, and a man who demanded an Indian Holocaust.

Why is it that the same people who will call Granger and Indian Hating Racist and daily scream that he is turning Guyana into an African nation, become hysterical whenever issues of Indian attitudes towards non Indians is raised. Attempt to discuss the Indian role in our ethnic tensions and people melt down into irrationality.

Well until Indians start having an intelligent debate on this we will not move forward.

So just as people demand that the PNC and blacks as a whole cease their paranoid behavior towards Indians you need to discuss what Indians should be doing to enable them to stop doing this.  It is as clear as day where the root causes of black paranoia towards Indians came from. 

D2 does hate the East Indian.

Burnham considered Pan-Africanism and so did every black person. One could have felt the transformation of the country.

Multi-ethnic society does not mean everybody has to be of the same mind.

seignet posted:

It is a miserable and grotesque fate which has decreed that the East Indian, spending the span of his days in his native Eastern land, should imitate the habits, the vices and the misery, of the scum of distant European cities which has never been seen; of a people with whom he has nothing in common. Born in the East; in the Land of the Sun: the land of minaret and cupola, of the palm tree and the pipal: of the sun-flower and the citron: of marble tombs and crescent-crowned arches: of hidden courtyards and high zenana walls: of  arcades of the orange and lemon, and of fountains scented with jasmine: the land of attar and pan: of finger nails tinted with henna and eyes rimmed with surma: of veiled and secluded women: of durbars and caparisoned elephants: of deverishes, dancing girls, snake charmers and opium eaters: of yataghans and jeweled slippers and praying carpets: the land of Holi and the Fateha: of a people who still pray on the house tops, and offer sacrifices and burn their dead: of temples built before the Parthenon and gods worshipped before Jupiter; in this ancient land in which the East Indian has his heritage, he lives, not the life of the people around , but the life of the gin-drinking, wife-beating, evil smelling, foul minded and foul-bodied denizens of the slums of  London.       

seignet posted:

D2 does hate the East Indian.

Burnham considered Pan-Africanism and so did every black person. One could have felt the transformation of the country.

Multi-ethnic society does not mean everybody has to be of the same mind.

pitiful red herring(s) being dragged around for mediocre men to sniff, follow and bark 

smfh

Django posted:

seignet posted:

It is a miserable and grotesque fate which has decreed that the East Indian, spending the span of his days in his native Eastern land, should imitate the habits, the vices and the misery, of the scum of distant European cities which has never been seen; of a people with whom he has nothing in common. Born in the East; in the Land of the Sun: the land of minaret and cupola, of the palm tree and the pipal: of the sun-flower and the citron: of marble tombs and crescent-crowned arches: of hidden courtyards and high zenana walls: of  arcades of the orange and lemon, and of fountains scented with jasmine: the land of attar and pan: of finger nails tinted with henna and eyes rimmed with surma: of veiled and secluded women: of durbars and caparisoned elephants: of deverishes, dancing girls, snake charmers and opium eaters: of yataghans and jeweled slippers and praying carpets: the land of Holi and the Fateha: of a people who still pray on the house tops, and offer sacrifices and burn their dead: of temples built before the Parthenon and gods worshipped before Jupiter; in this ancient land in which the East Indian has his heritage, he lives, not the life of the people around , but the life of the gin-drinking, wife-beating, evil smelling, foul minded and foul-bodied denizens of the slums of  London.       

Siege,

You present a piece from British India Society,way back from 1840.

You mean fe say the man tryin fi pass it as he own nuh

seignet posted:

 

Leh meh hear yuh sey "leh bygones be bygones."

 

So you will no longer mention the Wismar massacre or what you claim that Burnham did to Indians.

Hmmm. I see. Only blacks must let bygones be bygones.  Not Indians because no way are you going to forget Wismar.

Funny thing is that I don't hear black people ranting about the 60s even as I hear Indians constantly with it.  BOTH groups suffered.

Django posted:

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read and wrote this with a heavy heart,i can picture how my ancestors were treated by the British Colonial Planters.

Yes and the BGEIA wanted even more to be cast into this misery. Just so that these elites could then dominate the country.  They were a proto PPP, possessing all of the ideologies of ethnic domination that the PPP espoused once they got the chance.

seignet posted:

 

Burnham considered Pan-Africanism and so did every black person. One could have felt the transformation of the country.

Multi-ethnic society does not mean everybody has to be of the same mind.

Funny how the "Afro centrist" Burnham installed TWO Hindu holidays in Guyana. Hindus got ONE holiday in T&T.   In Guyana Christians only get two (the same as Hindus). In T&T they get THREE.

Now were Burnham the Indian hater that you scream he is Guyana would have NO Hindu holidays.  Ash Wednesday would be a holiday, as in Jamaica.  And to rub it in he would have Whit Monday as in Barbados and Antigua.

And this is the Indian issue. Suggest to an Indian that a multi ethnic nation should be one where all groups should feel equally involved and where all should engage each other in mutually beneficial activities.

Here is the reaction.  "Indian Holocaust".   They should live in their own little corner, ignoring all and viewing others as competitors on a piece of real estate.

No wonder we have a problem.  So we can discuss every thing that blacks allegedly did to Indians but should NEVER discuss what Indians did to blacks. Rant all day about the Wismar Massacre, but ignore Son Chapman, or spread some lie that PNC operatives were taken bombs to a town where explosives were easy to get.

Here we have the BGEIA  plotting to turn Guyana into an Indian colony in South America and even Ravi Dev, not only doesn't deny this, but is very proud of this plan.

So you all really need to stop this crap about Burnham starting race wars in Guyana.  It was the BGEIA which planted the seeds of a future conflict by introducing the notion of an ethnic struggle for domination.

I look forward to evidence that the goal of the BGEIA was for Indians to fit into Guyana among the other ethnicities that populated that country. And to jointly mount a struggle against the oppressive colonial rule of the time.

caribny posted:

seignet posted:

 

Leh meh hear yuh sey "leh bygones be bygones."

 

So you will no longer mention the Wismar massacre or what you claim that Burnham did to Indians.

Hmmm. I see. Only blacks must let bygones be bygones.  Not Indians because no way are you going to forget Wismar.

Funny thing is that I don't hear black people ranting about the 60s even as I hear Indians constantly with it.  BOTH groups suffered.

Isn’t that the line many Neo-Nazi take these days?

caribny posted:

seignet posted:

 

Burnham considered Pan-Africanism and so did every black person. One could have felt the transformation of the country.

Multi-ethnic society does not mean everybody has to be of the same mind.

Funny how the "Afro centrist" Burnham installed TWO Hindu holidays in Guyana. Hindus got ONE holiday in T&T.   In Guyana Christians only get two (the same as Hindus). In T&T they get THREE.

Now were Burnham the Indian hater that you scream he is Guyana would have NO Hindu holidays.  Ash Wednesday would be a holiday, as in Jamaica.  And to rub it in he would have Whit Monday as in Barbados and Antigua.

Is you who hate burnham, abie looove burnham. He use to gi abie free food and free electricity and free waata and kool-aid wid cassava bread and sol buttah!  He used to gi abie free plastic shoe, crimplie shutt and grabadeen pants. Just ask Nehru!!

Burnhan was an hoooooonerable man. 

He put coolie pon tap and Alyuh Black people pon the bottom.  Good fuh alyuh, alyuh like vote fuh blackman too qik!  Now look, dem coolie bais guh gi Harmon wan lil coolie gyaal, he guh screw she and he guh screw all ayuh black people....and coolie pon tap again!  Ayuh nevva kech sense!

Burnham was an hoooonerable man!

Now, you need to stop blackening abie hero name!

Baseman posted:

Now look, dem coolie bais guh gi Harmon wan lil coolie gyaal, he guh screw she and he guh screw all ayuh black people....and coolie pon tap again!

for all those who get confused with the 'political' gyrations of baseman . . . pay attention

in that stink mental sewer, playground of that certain specie of human dung, this kind of 'thinking' is regarded as genius

Baseman posted:

 

Isn’t that the line many Neo-Nazi take these days?

Yes Neo Nazis like you don't want blacks to talk about slavery or Jim Crow.  So I can see why you don't want any discussion on the antics of the BGEIA and the PPP to squeeze out blacks.

Baseman posted:

 

Is you who hate burnham, abie looove burnham.

Really! So why every election the PPP runs around screaming that "Burnham gun come back and rape you daughter if PPP don't win".  Endless wails of wanton gang rapes of Indo females at Kimbia and even in broad daylight on Regent St.

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

 

Is you who hate burnham, abie looove burnham.

Really! So why every election the PPP runs around screaming that "Burnham gun come back and rape you daughter if PPP don't win".  Endless wails of wanton gang rapes of Indo females at Kimbia and even in broad daylight on Regent St.

Burnham's problem was his followers like you, racist and arrogant!

caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

I will disagree with the highlighted statement,from what i read there were no race dominance between the locals,the Plantation Owners were in control.There were not many Associations,notably there was the BGEIA and the Sugar Producers Association.

Regarding to tap of labor from the Caribbean,that will be for another research.After the ban on Indian Indentured Labor,Immigrants was sought from the coast of Africa.

Also after Emancipation of Slavery  there were economic decline on the plantations in British Guiana,hence the Indentured Laborers scheme started and the economy was reinvigorated.

There was a decline after emancipation which was true of EVERY British West Indian sugar island, and in fact some like Nevis and Tobago even went out of production at that time.  Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts and Jamaica had ample labor supplies yet also experienced this decline.  Many planters went into bankruptcy and were forced to sell their plantations to their creditors as they couldn't repay their debts.  In fact some banks even failed.

The sugar plantations had to adjust from a system of free and controllable labor to one where the former slaves controlled the supply and also with the UK no longer given British West Indian sugar preference.  They bought the cheaper slave grown sugar from Cuba and Brazil and also beet sugar from France and Germany. 

Jamaicans went to Costa Rica and Panama to work on banana plantations (and also the railway and canal).  They went to Cuba to be involved in the sugar industry there. Given the dangers involved in living in Spanish speaking societies where the rule of law wasn't always certain I bet that Jamaica could have been a labor source, given that this would have been to another British colony.

The BGEIA had ambitions and those ambitions were based on a scheme to ensure that the Indian population outnumbered the combined black and colored populations.  Given that most groups in BG, aside from the plantation elites, suffered under the yoke of domination one would think that if race based competition wasn't the issue we would see more attempts at collaboration. 

But instead we see tit for tat.  The BGEIA wanted the Indian population to become numerically dominated so the black/colored leadership insisted on migration from the West Indies and Africa. By the early 20th C Africa had ceased to be a source of labor for anywhere in the Caribbean.  Africans were skeptical because of the history of slavery.  This ended once the illicit trade of enslaved people ended in the 1860s.

The Luckoos wanted to ensure immigration continues. The BEGIA came on line in the same year as the end of indentureship. It was initiated by the ruhomon brothers to consolidate and conserve Indian cultural identity. 

D2 posted:

caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

I will disagree with the highlighted statement,from what i read there were no race dominance between the locals,the Plantation Owners were in control.There were not many Associations,notably there was the BGEIA and the Sugar Producers Association.

Regarding to tap of labor from the Caribbean,that will be for another research.After the ban on Indian Indentured Labor,Immigrants was sought from the coast of Africa.

Also after Emancipation of Slavery  there were economic decline on the plantations in British Guiana,hence the Indentured Laborers scheme started and the economy was reinvigorated.

There was a decline after emancipation which was true of EVERY British West Indian sugar island, and in fact some like Nevis and Tobago even went out of production at that time.  Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts and Jamaica had ample labor supplies yet also experienced this decline.  Many planters went into bankruptcy and were forced to sell their plantations to their creditors as they couldn't repay their debts.  In fact some banks even failed.

The sugar plantations had to adjust from a system of free and controllable labor to one where the former slaves controlled the supply and also with the UK no longer given British West Indian sugar preference.  They bought the cheaper slave grown sugar from Cuba and Brazil and also beet sugar from France and Germany. 

Jamaicans went to Costa Rica and Panama to work on banana plantations (and also the railway and canal).  They went to Cuba to be involved in the sugar industry there. Given the dangers involved in living in Spanish speaking societies where the rule of law wasn't always certain I bet that Jamaica could have been a labor source, given that this would have been to another British colony.

The BGEIA had ambitions and those ambitions were based on a scheme to ensure that the Indian population outnumbered the combined black and colored populations.  Given that most groups in BG, aside from the plantation elites, suffered under the yoke of domination one would think that if race based competition wasn't the issue we would see more attempts at collaboration. 

But instead we see tit for tat.  The BGEIA wanted the Indian population to become numerically dominated so the black/colored leadership insisted on migration from the West Indies and Africa. By the early 20th C Africa had ceased to be a source of labor for anywhere in the Caribbean.  Africans were skeptical because of the history of slavery.  This ended once the illicit trade of enslaved people ended in the 1860s.

The Luckoos wanted to ensure immigration continues. The BEGIA came on line in the same year as the end of indentureship. It was initiated by the ruhomon brothers to consolidate and conserve Indian cultural identity. 

Poor Caribj. He so paranoid about black peoples future.  He so obsessed with anything Indians do. The Banna getting bazidy in his old age.   He needs to take the chill pill.  

Sigh!  Let me give another quote from my intro to this thread:

His (MH's) focus is on the disconnect between the Jagan’s / the PPP and its Indian supporters, how Jagan royally screwed up and the catastrophic consequences it had on Guyanese Indians and, indeed, on Guyana as a whole. Malcolm’s paper gives the historical / political background, explains how Guyana became (and still is) a basket case and why most of us (nearly half of all Guyanese actually) live outside of Guyana today.

Frankly, way too much is being made of the initiative to bring in more Indians to the colony, way back in those days.  Apart from being off topic, we are talking about an idea that never actually materilaized.  Now, if it had gained approval and was implemented, then bad feelings could have arisen in the colony.  But that did not happen, so it can't be credibly cited for the racial polarisation in the period leading up to Independence. 

I grew up in Guyana.  I was there before and way after Independence.  I did not know or hear of this initiative and neither did the overwhelming majority of Guyanese.  In the newspapers and in the po0litical discourses and debates, it was never cited as a reason for racial tension - then or now, and the reason is simple: most people, then and now, did not even hear of this past initiative and, more importantly, it never materialized.

Glad to see this important thread still alive but, for crying out loud, stick to the topic!

Some of us really have 'race on the brain' - to the point of being an obsession and fixation.  That's not healthy.

Adios amigos.

I thought you ran off into the sunset!

Baseman posted:

D2 posted:

.

The Luckoos wanted to ensure immigration continues. The BEGIA came on line in the same year as the end of indentureship. It was initiated by the ruhomon brothers to consolidate and conserve Indian cultural identity. 

Poor Caribj. He so paranoid about black peoples future.  He so obsessed with anything Indians do. The Banna getting bazidy in his old age.   He needs to take the chill pill.  

Baseman if Indians don't want to live in a multi ethnic society, where yes they will HAVE to be concerned with blacks, then they must return with due haste to India.

Now if it is that they wish to live in Guyana they need to understand the following.

1.  30% self identify as African/black, 20% as mixed 10% as Amerindians, which means that 60% do NOT identify as Indians.  Now do Indians want to live in a society like this where it is clear that all groups will need to engage each other in a mutually beneficial manner?

2.  Guyana is 65% Christian and just under 10% Muslim.  Now do Hindus want to live in a society like this where people of many faiths have to mutually engage each other?

What is clearly evident is that there isn't much of a future if Indians think that they can ignore the 60% who aren't Indian, nor can Hindus ignore the the almost 75% who aren't Hindu.

Now run along in your little corner thinking that you do yourself a favor by thinking that clannish behavior suits the interests of Indians and of Hindus.  Clearly it doesn't. 

Former Member posted:

 

Some of us really have 'race on the brain' - to the point of being an obsession and fixation.  That's not healthy.

Adios amigos.

Given that the BGEIA set in place a mentality that continues TODAY with the PPP then it is very much ON TOPIC!

Every aspect of Guyana is about RACE and one cannot understand Guyana unless one deals with RACE.  Guyana is where it is because of race. And yes the very behavior of the PPP is because of RACE.

After the elections the PPP screamed "we gun tek back Guyana for us".  He described "us" as rural Indians. After the LGE he boasted about how well he did in majority Indian areas.

So yes the premise of ethnic competition, which was STARTED by the BGEIA exists until today, Sept 20th, 2018.

That is unless one can find some evidence that the PPP seriously tried to transform its self into a truly national party, and not one merely concerned with tribal interests.

caribny posted:

Former Member posted:

 

Some of us really have 'race on the brain' - to the point of being an obsession and fixation.  That's not healthy.

Adios amigos.

Given that the BGEIA set in place a mentality that continues TODAY with the PPP then it is very much ON TOPIC!

 

Do you realize you have an obsessive compulsive disorder?   I believe you will be unhappy with the state of affairs even if you live in the heart of Africa.   

Ok ok, me know you are a creole Caribbean man!!

Try out some ice cream this weekend, it might trigger some “happiness” enzymes in your brain!  Try dark chocolate 🍫 flavor if that’s more palettable.

You are a krachaty old cyat!