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the host stated that the Bible is filled with stories of people sinning and because of these sins, they are not in a position to gain God's favors (or something like that). My question is why is God so arrogant that He will consider Himself to pristine that His own creation are considered with so much disdain by Him. If God is such a perfect creator, how did He end up creating such a creature that even Him cannot reconcile with.

So to make His initial screw-up right, He sent His son to die for those sins. Since it was Him who screwed up His creation, why didn't He come Himself to die for those sins that were committed because He screwed up His perfect creation? And even after His son's blood was shed, sins continued to occur which proves that even His decision to send His son to die was a mistake. Lots of mistakes from one who is supposed to be so perfect.

Why didn't God just do like any other reasonable person and say. I did not create a perfect creation and since it is not of their own fault, I will forgive them and continue to do so since I made the ultimate error? Being one who knows all things, He should have already known that sending His son to die will not remove sins one bit as we see today, there are even more people committing sins than when He sent His son.

I think that this whole Biblical concept about sins is nonsense.

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ksazma posted:

the host stated that the Bible is filled with stories of people sinning and because of these sins, they are not in a position to gain God's favors (or something like that). My question is why is God so arrogant that He will consider Himself to pristine that His own creation are considered with so much disdain by Him. If God is such a perfect creator, how did He end up creating such a creature that even Him cannot reconcile with.

Answer: This is a two part question. The first part is "Why is God so arrogant", the answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God's knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means "all-knowing.", Scripture references: Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2-4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God's knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives of those verses mention above "perfect in knowledge"; "his understanding has no limit"; "he knows everything" it is clear that God's knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He "make known" to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know that man were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God's knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God's nature means He cannot be God, for God's very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes.

We have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God knew that man would sin, yet He created man anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God's sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have mention
thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that man falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted man to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God's overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

Moving on to the second part of the question, "reconcile", as you alluded too below, when Christ died on the cross, He satisfied God's judgment and made it possible for God's enemies, us, to find peace with Him. Our "reconciliation" to God, then, involves the exercise of His grace and the forgiveness of our sin. We were in a state of condemnation because of our sins, but we are now forgiven. We were at war with God, but now have the peace that transcends all understanding (Philippians 4:7).

So to make His initial screw-up right, He sent His son to die for those sins. Since it was Him who screwed up His creation, why didn't He come Himself to die for those sins that were committed because He screwed up His perfect creation? And even after His son's blood was shed, sins continued to occur which proves that even His decision to send His son to die was a mistake. Lots of mistakes from one who is supposed to be so perfect.

Why didn't God just do like any other reasonable person and say. I did not create a perfect creation and since it is not of their own fault, I will forgive them and continue to do so since I made the ultimate error? Being one who knows all things, He should have already known that sending His son to die will not remove sins one bit as we see today, there are even more people committing sins than when He sent His son.

Question: Before I answer your questions above talk to me about the attributes of the God you serve.

I think that this whole Biblical concept about sins is nonsense.

 

Amral posted:

By the way, why how do you did Satan come about. I cant remember. 

If I am reading your question correct you are asking, "How Satan came about"? Correct? If so, Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan's pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherub, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan's pride led to his fall. Notice the many "I will" statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God permanently removed Satan from his exalted position and role. 

Satan became the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3). His very name means "adversary" or "one who opposes." Another of his titles, the devil, means "slanderer."

Even though he was cast out of heaven, he still seeks to elevate his throne above God. He counterfeits all that God does, hoping to gain the worship of the world and encourage opposition to God's kingdom. Satan is the ultimate source behind every false cult and world religion. Satan will do anything and everything in his power to oppose God and those who follow God. However, Satan's destiny is sealed an eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

ksazma posted:

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Yes no one knows the truth. Is there really a heaven and hell. Nothing was ever proven. The holy books, whether it is the Bible, the Koran or the Vedas, how can we really believe them.

Looking at research, many things have been proven about the creation of the universe through actual scientific facts. 

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

Answer: God omniscient but yet choose to go forth with His creation, is that not, as you put it "God's arrogance"?

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

Answer: I am not going to bored you by sounding repetitious. There was a discussion about free will and also about the purpose of the sacrifice, look it up it should answer your statement above. 

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Answer: I agree with the statement in bold. People have different ideas about heaven. Many have no understanding of God at all, but still like to think of heaven as the "better place" where we all go when we die. Ideas about heaven are often no more than vague hopes, on par with "maybe I'll win the lottery some day." Most people don't give heaven much thought until they attend a funeral or a loved one dies. It is popular to refer to heaven as the place where "the good people go." And of course, everyone they know and love is included in the category of "good people."

The people who go to heaven are all alike in one way, they are sinners who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). They have recognized their need for a Savior and humbly accepted God's offer of forgiveness. They have repented of their old ways of living and set their course to follow Christ (Mark 8:34; John 15:14). They have not attempted to earn God's forgiveness but have served him gladly from grateful hearts (Psalm 100:2). The kind of faith that saves a soul is one that transforms a life (James 2:26; 1 John 3:9-10) and rests fully on the grace of God.


Any chance I can get you to tell me about the attributes of the God you serve?

In the link below Dr. Stanley discusses the sovereignty of God and the implications His authority has on creation and our relationship with Him. Acknowledging God’s sovereign nature is vital for believers to serve Him wholeheartedly and to accomplish His purposes with confidence.

If you’ve ever found yourself questioning the limits of God’s power or the wisdom of His decisions, this message will provide a sound biblical basis for faith and trust in our omnipotent, omniscient Father. Source:-Intouch Ministries.

This was right on time. Is was aired today on Intouch Ministries.  

The Sovereignty of God

Last edited by Keith
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

Answer: God omniscient but yet choose to go forth with His creation, is that not, as you put it "God's arrogance"?

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

Answer: I am not going to bored you by sounding repetitious. There was a discussion about free will and also about the purpose of the sacrifice, look it up it should answer your statement above. 

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Answer: I agree with the statement in bold. People have different ideas about heaven. Many have no understanding of God at all, but still like to think of heaven as the "better place" where we all go when we die. Ideas about heaven are often no more than vague hopes, on par with "maybe I'll win the lottery some day." Most people don't give heaven much thought until they attend a funeral or a loved one dies. It is popular to refer to heaven as the place where "the good people go." And of course, everyone they know and love is included in the category of "good people."

The people who go to heaven are all alike in one way, they are sinners who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). They have recognized their need for a Savior and humbly accepted God's offer of forgiveness. They have repented of their old ways of living and set their course to follow Christ (Mark 8:34; John 15:14). They have not attempted to earn God's forgiveness but have served him gladly from grateful hearts (Psalm 100:2). The kind of faith that saves a soul is one that transforms a life (James 2:26; 1 John 3:9-10) and rests fully on the grace of God.


Any chance I can get you to tell me about the attributes of the God you serve?

I prefer not to add any distraction to the discussion of how the Bible address sins and how to remove then and if that method has worked or not. Me pointing to what I serve would only distract from that.

Coming back to the comment made by the person on Moody Radio, they suggested that in order for people to be relieved of the burden of sin, God sent his son to die. The trouble is that there is no evidence that Jesus dying on the cross has relieved anyone of the burden of any sins and there is even more evidence that much more sins are being committed if one considers the vast increase of the world's population alone. In fact, even the Bible talks of Peter disobeying Jesus just after Jesus died so even when the incident was still fresh, the burden of sins was still rampant.

This idea of blood needing to be shed for one to be relieved of sins is a fallacy of the preaching of the Bible. It was wrongfully believed that blood can wash away sins and if God sent his son to shed his blood to wash away sins, then God too either propagated it or fell for the fallacy that blood can wash away sins. All evidence have shown that people sin all the time and there are no easy way to be relieved of those sins. It is no different than any other aspect of life. One is bound to sleep in the bed they make. If one wants a better bed to sleep in, one needs to get off their ass and work for that bed and as they progress on their journey, so does the progress of that bed. Now God still has the power of forgiveness and the ability to offer that bed but it is a cheap proposition that someone can just get that bed for just asking. Lots of people are too comfortable just asking for things without even giving the thought that they should make some effort to do so. Sitting in a church singing the praises of God day and night only satisfy God's ego but does not do anything for the person singing those praises as any lazy person can do that.

If God wants to forgive someone for their sins, He or She can do so by just doing so. They don't need to continue the misguided charade that some Jewish people from Moses' time or maybe even before came up with that blood is needed to wash away sins. As mentioned above, all evidence has shown that Jesus blood did nothing to wash away sins and only act as another example of how people think that they can solve issues through shedding blood.

Amral showed much more wisdom than God when he suggested that God could have just burned Lucifer. Doing that would have kept sin out of the world and would have even kept Jesus from having his blood shed.

I am not interested in fancy talk of preachers and politicians. In my opinion, they are all con artists.

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Hebrews tells the whole story. The writer Paul, explains it all. It appears as fantasy, but that is how supernatural things are. 

seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Hebrews tells the whole story. The writer Paul, explains it all. It appears as fantasy, but that is how supernatural things are. 

Bai Siggy, then that supernatural thing lacks common sense. 

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:

All I am asking of you is to share with me the attributes of the God you serve. Could you do that?

Currently, I am not sure I serve any God. That said, it is still irrelevant to my argument regarding the snippet from Moody Radio.

Did you not mention before you are a Muslim? The question I have asked is relevant in regards to your snippet, I await your answer.

Man was not created sinful by nature. God created man entirely holy and sinless. Our sinful condition is not the result of God’s creative work, but is a historical consequence of our abuse of free will. To say that God should have created us "for the most part holy and not sinful" fails to do justice to the true freedom and consequences of free will.

Keith posted:

Man was not created sinful by nature. God created man entirely holy and sinless. Our sinful condition is not the result of God’s creative work, but is a historical consequence of our abuse of free will. To say that God should have created us "for the most part holy and not sinful" fails to do justice to the true freedom and consequences of free will.

Encompassing "sins" in that free will is paradoxical because perfection cannot "sin".

antabanta posted:

If a perfect God made man, then man must be perfect, and in that perfection there can be no such thing as sin. Therefore, either the concept of God or the concept of sin is crap.

You assumption on man must be perfect because he was created by a perfect God is wrong. Again God created us and give us a free will and urge us to... "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48, NIV.

The scriptures stated that God created man in His image. It clearly wasn’t referring to physical image because God doesn’t have boobs and since Eve was created by God’s own hands, her boobs must be perfect. I think it has more to do with qualities. Therefore, if man’s qualities image God’s, it would be impossible for man to sin since God cannot sin. But obviously man is primed to sin so he cannot be in God’s image.

We see many instances in the scriptures where God doesn’t seem as perfect as claimed. We see Him yelling out in the wilderness asking Moses where he is when He is supposed to be all knowing. We see Him subscribing to the faulty inclination and subsequent learning from them that it was not a good idea to subscribe. We see Jesus who is supposed to be just as perfect and all knowing preaching incessantly that Judas will be with him in heaven only to give up on that idea after he realized that Judas had betrayed him. Is like Trump bragging about hiring the best people only to refer to then as never trumpers after he realizes that they are not going to help him with his illegalities anymore. Seems like God is no more perfect than Trump. πŸ˜€

Keith posted:
antabanta posted:

If a perfect God made man, then man must be perfect, and in that perfection there can be no such thing as sin. Therefore, either the concept of God or the concept of sin is crap.

You assumption on man must be perfect because he was created by a perfect God is wrong. Again God created us and give us a free will and urge us to... "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48, NIV.

My assumption??? The idea of a gray-bearded old white man sitting somewhere up in the sky who created the everything in our world is your assumption. Not mine. I find the idea abhorrent. But to humor you, why is my "assumption" wrong? Is God not perfect?

Last edited by antabanta

Accordingly, humanity is unique among all God’s creations, having both a material body and an immaterial soul/spirit.

Having the "image" or "likeness" of God means, in the simplest terms, that we were made to resemble God. Adam did not resemble God in the sense of God’s having flesh and blood. Scripture says that "God is spirit" (John 4:24) and therefore exists without a body. However, Adam’s body did mirror the life of God insofar as it was created in perfect health and was not subject to death.

The image of God (Latin: imago dei) refers to the immaterial part of humanity. It sets human beings apart from the animal world, fits them for the dominion God intended them to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables them to commune with their Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially.

Mentally, humanity was created as a rational, volitional agent. In other words, human beings can reason and choose. This is a reflection of God’s intellect and freedom. Anytime someone invents a machine, writes a book, paints a landscape, enjoys a symphony, calculates a sum, or names a pet, he or she is proclaiming the fact that we are made in God’s image.

Morally, humanity was created in righteousness and perfect innocence, a reflection of God’s holiness. God saw all He had made (humanity included) and called it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Our conscience or "moral compass" is a vestige of that original state. Whenever someone writes a law, recoils from evil, praises good behavior, or feels guilty, he or she is confirming the fact that we are made in God’s own image.

Socially, humanity was created for fellowship. This reflects God's triune nature and His love. In Eden, humanity’s primary relationship was with God (Genesis 3:8 implies fellowship with God), and God made the first woman because "it is not good for the man to be alone" (Genesis 2:18). Every time someone marries, makes a friend, hugs a child, or attends church, he or she is demonstrating the fact that we are made in the likeness of God.

Part of being made in God’s image is that Adam had the capacity to make free choices. Although they were given a righteous nature, Adam and Eve made an evil choice to rebel against their Creator. In so doing, they marred the image of God within themselves, and passed that damaged likeness on to all of their descendants (Romans 5:12). Today, we still bear the image of God (James 3:9), but we also bear the scars of sin. Mentally, morally, socially, and physically, we show the effects of sin.

The good news is that when God redeems an individual, He begins to restore the original image of God, creating a "new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:24). That redemption is only available by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior from the sin that separates us from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through Christ, we are made new creations in the likeness of God (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Also see: "What It Means to Be β€œMade in the Image of God”

Last edited by Keith
Keith posted:

Accordingly, humanity is unique among all God’s creations, having both a material body and an immaterial s