ksazma posted:

This God is one strange dude. He does silly things just to fulfill silly prophesy. Jesus tell Judas that he will judge people in heaven even though he is supposed to know that Judas isn't going to just because it is God's silly plan.

Then we have a Holy Spirit who must have the worst memory in the world because all those writers contradict each other.

Now when the preacher gets cornered he resorts to "God works in mysterious ways". 

No ksazma, the entire Bible is harmonious. While some passages might seem to show the Bible contradicting itself, they can usually be understood correctly by applying one or more of the following principles:

  1. Consider the context. Any author can appear to contradict himself if his words are taken out of context.

  2. Consider the writer’s viewpoint. Eyewitnesses might describe an event accurately but not use the exact same wording or include the same details.

  3. Take into account historical facts and customs.

  4. Distinguish between the figurative and the literal uses of a word.

  5. Recognize that an action may be attributed to someone—even if he did not personally carry it out. *

  6. Use an accurate Bible translation.

  7. Avoid trying to reconcile what the Bible says with mistaken religious ideas or dogma.

The following examples show how these principles can explain some seeming inconsistencies in the Bible. Are you still with me ksazma do fall asleep my brother.

Principle 1: Context

If God rested on the seventh day, how has he continued working? The context of the Genesis creation account shows that the statement that God “began to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had been doing” refers specifically to his work of physical creation respecting the earth. (Genesis 2:2-4) Jesus did not contradict this, however, when he said that God “has kept working until now,” because he was talking about other works of God. (John 5:17) God’s works include the inspiration of the Bible and his guidance and care of mankind.—Psalm 20:6; 105:5; 2 Peter 1:21.

Principles 2 and 3: Viewpoint and history

Jesus heals the blind man: Where did Jesus heal the blind man? The book of Luke says that Jesus healed a blind man as Jesus “was getting near to Jericho,” while the parallel account in Matthew mentions two blind men and says that the incident occurred when Jesus was “going out of Jericho.” (Luke 18:35-43; Matthew 20:29-34) These two accounts, written from different viewpoints, actually complement each other. Regarding the number of men, Matthew is more specific as to there being two, while Luke focuses on the one man to whom Jesus directed his remarks. As for the location, archaeologists have found that in Jesus’ time Jericho was a double city, with the old Jewish city situated about one and a half kilometers (1 mi) away from the newer Roman city. Jesus may have been between the two cities when he performed this miracle.

Principle 4: Figurative and literal terms

Will the earth be destroyed? At Ecclesiastes 1:4, the Bible says that “the earth remains forever,” which to some apparently conflicts with its statement that “the elements will be destroyed by heat—with the earth.” (2 Peter 3:10, Beck) In the Bible, however, the word “earth” is used both literally, referring to our planet, and figuratively, referring to the people who live on it. (Genesis 1:1; 11:1) The destruction of the “earth” described at 2 Peter 3:10 refers, not to the burning up of our planet, but to the “destruction of the ungodly people.”—2 Peter 3:7.

Principle 5: Attribution

In Capernaum, who brought the centurion’s request to Jesus? Matthew 8:5, 6 says that the centurion (army officer) himself came to Jesus, while Luke 7:3 says that the centurion sent older men of the Jews to make his request. This apparent Bible contradiction can be understood in that the army officer initiated the request, but he sent the older men as his representatives.

Principle 6: Accurate translation

Do we all sin? The Bible teaches that we all inherit sin from the first man, Adam. (Romans 5:12) Some translations seem to contradict this by saying that a good person "does no sin" or "sinneth not." (1 John 3:6, The Bible in Basic English; King James Version) In the original language, though, the Greek verb for "sin" at 1 John 3:6 is in the present tense, which in that language normally indicates a continuous action. There is a difference between inherited sin, which we cannot avoid, and the deliberate, continuous practice of disobeying God’s laws. Thus, some translations clear up this seeming contradiction by accurately using phrases such as “does not practice sin” or “does not habitually sin.”—New World Translation; Phillips.

Principle 7: The Bible, not dogma

Is Jesus equal to God or lesser than God? Jesus once said: “I and the Father are one,” which seems to contradict his statement that “the Father is greater than I am.” (John 10:30; 14:28) To understand those verses correctly, we must examine what the Bible really says about Jehovah and Jesus rather than try to harmonize the verses with the Trinity dogma, which is not based on the Bible. The Bible shows that Jehovah is not only Jesus’ Father but also Jesus’ God, the One whom even Jesus worships. (Matthew 4:10; Mark 15:34; John 17:3; 20:17; 2 Corinthians 1:3) Jesus is not equal to God.

The context of Jesus’ statement "I and the Father are one" shows that he was talking about the oneness of purpose that he shared with his Father, Jehovah God. Jesus later said: "The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." (John 10:38) Jesus shared this unity of purpose with his followers as well, for he prayed to God about them: "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me." -John 17:22, 23.

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

Bai Skelly, I have been debating Christians since 1980 so there is no chance I will ever be a Christian. The more I learn of Christianity, the less attractive it is.

Secondly, Keith claimed that he was not giving a sermon but just involved in a thought. If it is not a sermon, then exchanges of thoughts would be welcome. So it is time for Keith to drop the preaching and deal with thoughts independently. Everyone's preaching is beautiful so there is no chance what Keith preaches is going to sound any different from another person's preaching. Take for instance, Jesus never said that he is God or any part of any Triune God. He rebuked the man for calling him good telling the man that the only one who is good is God. He also said that he of his own can do NOTHING. He by the finger of God cast out devils. Imagine a God who can of his own do NOTHING. He didn't know that the reason there were no figs on the tree was because it was not the season for figs. Imagine if you tell someone that there will get cashews in Guyana in a certain month and then it is told that cashews don't grow in that month. People will ask you what kind of Guyanese you are. Jesus thought that he will find figs on the tree and when he realized that the tree doesn't have any figs since it was not the season for figs, he arrogantly cursed the tree. Imagine gentle Jesus cursing a tree which has done no wrong but was acting exactly as God made its nature. Wonder when Keith will really have a discussion instead of a sermon.

Wisdom Brings Joy

James 1:5-8

One of the most important tools in overcoming trials is wisdom. Ironically, this quality, which seems so rare in our world today, is actually readily and easily available to believers. Scripture says we simply have to ask, and God will give it generously.

Though wisdom certainly has rewards, it does come with a price. If we ask God to make us wise, He will allow tests in our life. Their purpose is not to point out what’s wrong with our faith but, rather, to help us discover whether or not we’re wise.

Temptations and difficulty also allow us to discern our level of devotion to the Lord. When we go through a time of testing, we learn whether we’re willing to say, “I don’t like this, God, and I don’t understand it, but I’m going to obey You no matter what.” There’s no way to know whether we would respond that way unless we go through trials that examine our faith.

We grow in our devotion to the heavenly Father by making wise decisions despite opposition and by obeying when it is inconvenient to do so or when temptations are the hardest to resist. Such challenges are similar to a refiner’s fire: They sanctify and purify us, raising to the surface attitudes that we may not realize are in our life. These situations not only reveal what God is doing in us but also can turn up the heat if we try to muffle the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

When we, through wisdom, allow God to do His work in our life, we will begin to experience blessings, see His power, and feel His love in new ways. And this new growth brings great joy!

ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Present one and lets have a discussion

skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

I am here to remind you who God is and to correct your misunderstand of what people like Darwin and others have being teaching you about God.

Jesus said, "He's the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him". He's the sacrificial lamb who blood was shed on Calvary.

Are we still sacrificing animals for the remission of our sins?

 

Last edited by Keith
ksazma posted:
skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

Bai Skelly, I have been debating Christians since 1980 so there is no chance I will ever be a Christian. The more I learn of Christianity, the less attractive it is.

Secondly, Keith claimed that he was not giving a sermon but just involved in a thought. If it is not a sermon, then exchanges of thoughts would be welcome. So it is time for Keith to drop the preaching and deal with thoughts independently. Everyone's preaching is beautiful so there is no chance what Keith preaches is going to sound any different from another person's preaching. Take for instance, Jesus never said that he is God or any part of any Triune God. He rebuked the man for calling him good telling the man that the only one who is good is God. He also said that he of his own can do NOTHING. He by the finger of God cast out devils. Imagine a God who can of his own do NOTHING. He didn't know that the reason there were no figs on the tree was because it was not the season for figs. Imagine if you tell someone that there will get cashews in Guyana in a certain month and then it is told that cashews don't grow in that month. People will ask you what kind of Guyanese you are. Jesus thought that he will find figs on the tree and when he realized that the tree doesn't have any figs since it was not the season for figs, he arrogantly cursed the tree. Imagine gentle Jesus cursing a tree which has done no wrong but was acting exactly as God made its nature. Wonder when Keith will really have a discussion instead of a sermon.

Got you all thinking didn't I?

skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

I am not a theologian, so I research, cut and paste some of the information and backing up the answers with words from the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth (BIBLE), the word of God.

Every answers I have given you is covered in the BIBLE. Where are your answers coming from?

Keith posted:
skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

I am not a theologian, so I research, cut and paste some of the information and backing up the answers with words from the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth (BIBLE), the word of God.

Every answers I have given you is covered in the BIBLE. Where are your answers coming from?

Critical thinking. I do not accept every written word in the bible or any other religious book. These reverends, priests etc. should go out and get a real job. Don't be a Jim Baker..listening to Sammy John's "Make Love in My Chevy Van and Paul Anka's "Having My Baby" while banging Jessica Hahn and getting rug burns. While he was doing this he was also robbing the poor old ladies of their last dollar. Remember Jimmy Swaggart getting caught with a prostitute? These men were supposedly men of Jesus. How can a Christian god forgive these men?

Seeking God’s Will

1 John 5:14-15

Parents train their children to do many tasks—from knowing which clothes match to handling money. As Christians, we are blessed to have an omniscient and mighty heavenly Father who is willing to make His way known to us. He wants to reveal what to do in every situation and, in fact, promises this: “I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you with My eye upon you” (Psalm 32:8). Let’s explore how to discern God’s will at each crossroad of life.

The first step is to make sure that we have repented of all known sin in our life. Listening to the Lord while holding onto iniquity is like trying to use a foggy and unreadable compass. After confessing and repenting, we can ask for direction.

Next, we should read Scripture regularly with a seeking, open heart. The Bible is like a lamp on a dark path (Psalm 119:105).

The last step involves God’s indwelling Holy Spirit—the wonderful gift our Father has given each of His children. The Spirit provides truth and guidance as we read the Word and pray. We should listen patiently for His leading, which is often communicated quietly to our heart as we spend time with the Father.

When asking the Lord to reveal His will, we shouldn’t expect instant answers. The discipline of waiting builds character, and besides, rushing the process may lead to a path that misses God’s best. Take the time to seek Jesus’ plan for your life, remembering He’ll provide all you need to follow Him.

skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:
skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

I am not a theologian, so I research, cut and paste some of the information and backing up the answers with words from the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth (BIBLE), the word of God.

Every answers I have given you is covered in the BIBLE. Where are your answers coming from?

Critical thinking. I do not accept every written word in the bible or any other religious book. These reverends, priests etc. should go out and get a real job. Don't be a Jim Baker..listening to Sammy John's "Make Love in My Chevy Van and Paul Anka's "Having My Baby" while banging Jessica Hahn and getting rug burns. While he was doing this he was also robbing the poor old ladies of their last dollar. Remember Jimmy Swaggart getting caught with a prostitute? These men were supposedly men of Jesus. How can a Christian god forgive these men?

Answer: That's man we all fall and are held accountable for our action. As the book of romans remind us, "There is none righteous, no, not one;"

Psalm 14:1-3 :  3 The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt; they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.   2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God.   3 They have all turned aside; they are all together become filthy. There is none that doeth good; no, not one.

On the subject of forgiveness, as Christians, we sin, but we know that God is faithful to forgive (1 John 1:9). God cleanses, and then He moves on. He does not hold our sins over us. Instead, He frees us from the slavery of sin and sets us free to experience a new life. Knowing the complete forgiveness of God in Christ, we can join King Hezekiah in praising our Redeemer: "You have put all my sins behind your back" (Isaiah 38:17). Like Paul, we can forget what is behind and "press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called us heavenward in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:13).

Isaiah 43:25 says, "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Hebrews 10 explains how Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for sin was a once-and-for-all sacrifice. Unlike the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, in which sacrifices were continually made for sin, Jesus paid for sin once. His payment was complete. Hebrews 10:14–18 says, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

So when you fall is how you get up, repent seek forgiveness and thank God for being merciful b/c that's who He's, loving, merciful and is just to forgive us . That's the God who I server!

Last edited by Keith
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
 

Got you all thinking didn't I?

Dude, we were thinking long before you began this thread. If you think that anything you have posted so far is connecting with me, you think too much of what you are posting. I for one can live without it.

Thought: "The greatest tragedy in life is to live without God and spend eternity separated from God".....Only a thought, have a bless day fellows.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
 

Got you all thinking didn't I?

Dude, we were thinking long before you began this thread. If you think that anything you have posted so far is connecting with me, you think too much of what you are posting. I for one can live without it.

Thought: "The greatest tragedy in life is to live without God and spend eternity separated from God".....Only a thought, have a bless day fellows.

That is a belief, not a fact. It is even further stretched when one assumes that Jesus is God.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
 

Got you all thinking didn't I?

Dude, we were thinking long before you began this thread. If you think that anything you have posted so far is connecting with me, you think too much of what you are posting. I for one can live without it.

Thought: "The greatest tragedy in life is to live without God and spend eternity separated from God".....Only a thought, have a bless day fellows.

That is a belief, not a fact. It is even further stretched when one assumes that Jesus is God.

Keith posted:
skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:
skeldon_man posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Keith cuts and paste too much of the bible. It's boring to read. I hear this stuff  on TV everyday. Hope he doesn't convert you to Christianity one day.

I am not a theologian, so I research, cut and paste some of the information and backing up the answers with words from the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth (BIBLE), the word of God.

Every answers I have given you is covered in the BIBLE. Where are your answers coming from?

Critical thinking. I do not accept every written word in the bible or any other religious book. These reverends, priests etc. should go out and get a real job. Don't be a Jim Baker..listening to Sammy John's "Make Love in My Chevy Van and Paul Anka's "Having My Baby" while banging Jessica Hahn and getting rug burns. While he was doing this he was also robbing the poor old ladies of their last dollar. Remember Jimmy Swaggart getting caught with a prostitute? These men were supposedly men of Jesus. How can a Christian god forgive these men?

Answer: That's man we all fall and are held accountable for our action. As the book of romans remind us, "There is none righteous, no, not one;"

Psalm 14:1-3 :  3 The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt; they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.   2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God.   3 They have all turned aside; they are all together become filthy. There is none that doeth good; no, not one.

On the subject of forgiveness, as Christians, we sin, but we know that God is faithful to forgive (1 John 1:9). God cleanses, and then He moves on. He does not hold our sins over us. Instead, He frees us from the slavery of sin and sets us free to experience a new life. Knowing the complete forgiveness of God in Christ, we can join King Hezekiah in praising our Redeemer: "You have put all my sins behind your back" (Isaiah 38:17). Like Paul, we can forget what is behind and "press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called us heavenward in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:13).

Isaiah 43:25 says, "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Hebrews 10 explains how Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for sin was a once-and-for-all sacrifice. Unlike the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, in which sacrifices were continually made for sin, Jesus paid for sin once. His payment was complete. Hebrews 10:14–18 says, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

So when you fall is how you get up, repent seek forgiveness and thank God for being merciful b/c that's who He's, loving, merciful and is just to forgive us . That's the God who I server!

Your cutting and pasting parts of the bible on this BB is waste of digital space. Critical thinking and an opposing point of view is required. We can all cut and paste. Without any criticism, we all follow like a blind man.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Present one and lets have a discussion

Here is one for you Keith.

According to Luke, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel and Salathiel's father is Neri.

However, according to Matthew, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel but Salathiel's father is Jechonias.

Although there are thousands more, I chose Jesus' genealogy because I know you wish to remain focused on Jesus.

 

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Pitfalls in Seeking God’s Will

Psalm 25:4-5

As a pastor, I am frequently asked how to make the right decision in challenging circumstances. Sadly, I see many people make mistakes in this area.

For example, some people pray hastily for the Lord to lead them but do not listen for His answer. Instead, they make their own decision and trust that He will bless it. But expecting God to bless what is not of Him will lead to missing out on His best. To avoid disappointment, we must be aware of several pitfalls that interfere with hearing His direction accurately.

First, be mindful of fleshly desires. Wants are not necessarily wrong, but longings become unhealthy when they consume our thoughts. Eventually, we might believe that our desired outcome is God’s will, when in reality, we weren’t really listening to His voice.

Second, watch out for faulty advice. Even well-meaning Christian friends can lead us in the wrong direction. We should carefully seek counsel from those who walk closely with Jesus and are grounded in His Word.

Third, be careful when you are feeling impatient, doubtful, or pressured in any way. These emotions can lead you to make rash decisions apart from the Lord’s best for your life. Patience is hard, but His perfect will is always worth the wait.

Determine to follow God’s leading. Do this by cleansing your heart, asking for guidance, waiting, and listening. When you trusted Christ as Savior, His Holy Spirit came into your heart and sealed you as His child. He will teach you how to live a godly life—direction is yours if you ask and believe.

Keith posted:

Pitfalls in Seeking God’s Will

Psalm 25:4-5

As a pastor, I am frequently asked how to make the right decision in challenging circumstances. Sadly, I see many people make mistakes in this area.

First, be mindful of fleshly desires. Wants are not necessarily wrong, but longings become unhealthy when they consume our thoughts. Eventually, we might believe that our desired outcome is God’s will, when in reality, we weren’t really listening to His voice.

Too bad you could not give this advice to Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart.
Did Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart listened to god's voice before they unleashed their lustful desires on those women? These lustful steeds are/were men of god. Maybe they were having a religious party where they read the bible and drank alcohol. Oh, by the way, I was considered a heathen by the bible school fanatics.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Present one and lets have a discussion

Here is one for you Keith.

According to Luke, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel and Salathiel's father is Neri.

However, according to Matthew, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel but Salathiel's father is Jechonias.

Although there are thousands more, I chose Jesus' genealogy because I know you wish to remain focused on Jesus.

 

Answer: Once again understand what you are reading before you post. Did you ever read the bible from Genesis to Revelation? I assume you never did and even if you did you probable care not to understand and just have that as a notch to say I read the bible from beginning to end. With that being said allow me to educate you both. As you pointed out
Jesus' genealogy is given in two places in Scripture: Matthew 1 and Luke 3:23-38. Matthew traces the genealogy from Jesus to Abraham. Luke traces the genealogy from Jesus to Adam. However, there is good reason to believe that Matthew and Luke are in fact tracing entirely different genealogies. For example, Matthew gives Joseph's father as Jacob (Matthew 1:16), while Luke gives Joseph's father as Heli (Luke 3:23). Matthew traces the line through David's son Solomon (Matthew 1:6), while Luke traces the line through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31). In fact, between David and Jesus, the only names the genealogies have in common are Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27).

Like you and many others point to these differences as evidence of errors in the Bible. However, the Jews were meticulous record keepers, especially in regard to genealogies. It is inconceivable that Matthew and Luke could build two entirely contradictory genealogies of the same lineage. Again, from David through Jesus, the genealogies are completely different. Even the reference to Shealtiel and Zerubbabel likely refer to different individuals of the same names. Matthew gives Shealtiel's father as Jeconiah while Luke gives Shealtiel's father as Neri. It would be normal for a man named Shealtiel to name his son Zerubbabel in light of the famous individuals of those names, read the books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

According to and historian, Eusebius, "Matthew is tracing the primary, or biological, lineage while Luke is taking into account an occurrence of "levirate marriage." If a man died without having any sons, it was tradition for the man’s brother to marry the widow and have a son who would carry on the deceased man’s name." His theory, "Melchi (Luke 3:24) and Matthan (Matthew 1:15) were married at different times to the same woman, tradition names her Estha. This would make Heli (Luke 3:23) and Jacob (Matthew 1:15) half-brothers. Heli then died without a son, and so his (half-)brother Jacob married Heil’s widow, who gave birth to Joseph. This would make Joseph the "son of Heli" legally and the “son of Jacob” biologically. Thus, Matthew and Luke are both recording the same genealogy (Joseph’s), but Luke follows the legal lineage while Matthew follows the biological."

Last edited by Keith
    Matthew's list        Luke's list (in inverse order)
David David
Solomon Nathan
Rehoboam Mattatha
Abijah Menna
Asa Melea
Jehoshaphat Eliakim
Jehoram Jonam
Uzziah Joseph
Jotham Judah
Ahaz Simeon
Hezekiah Levi
Manasseh Matthat
Amon Jorim
Josiah Eliezer
Jeconiah Joshua
Shealtiel............ Er
Zerubbabel........ . Elmadam
Abiud . . Cosam
Eliakim . . Addi
Azor ? ? Melki
Zakok . . Neri
Akim . ............Shealtiel
Eliud ...............Zerubbabel
Eleazar Rhesa
Matthan Joanan
Jacob Joda
Joseph (husband of Mary) Josech
Jesus Semein
Mattathias
Maath
Naggai
Esli
Nahum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Jannai
Melki
Levi
Matthat
Heli
Joseph
Jesus ("the son, so it was
thought, of Joseph")
Last edited by Keith
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

Nice try Keith but you are not dealing with a rookie. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the real contradictions in the Bible. Nothing to do with time, context or viewpoint. Nothing to do with figurative or literal. Real contradictions. We can go over them one by one without seeking to conceal them with all the sermon stuff. Are you prepared to do that.

Present one and lets have a discussion

Here is one for you Keith.

According to Luke, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel and Salathiel's father is Neri.

However, according to Matthew, Zorobabel's father is Salathiel but Salathiel's father is Jechonias.

Although there are thousands more, I chose Jesus' genealogy because I know you wish to remain focused on Jesus.

 

Answer: Once again understand what you are reading before you post. Did you ever read the bible from Genesis to Revelation? I assume you never did and even if you did you probable care not to understand and just have that as a notch to say I read the bible from beginning to end. With that being said allow me to educate you both. As you pointed out
Jesus' genealogy is given in two places in Scripture: Matthew 1 and Luke 3:23-38. Matthew traces the genealogy from Jesus to Abraham. Luke traces the genealogy from Jesus to Adam. However, there is good reason to believe that Matthew and Luke are in fact tracing entirely different genealogies. For example, Matthew gives Joseph's father as Jacob (Matthew 1:16), while Luke gives Joseph's father as Heli (Luke 3:23). Matthew traces the line through David's son Solomon (Matthew 1:6), while Luke traces the line through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31). In fact, between David and Jesus, the only names the genealogies have in common are Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27).

Like you and many others point to these differences as evidence of errors in the Bible. However, the Jews were meticulous record keepers, especially in regard to genealogies. It is inconceivable that Matthew and Luke could build two entirely contradictory genealogies of the same lineage. Again, from David through Jesus, the genealogies are completely different. Even the reference to Shealtiel and Zerubbabel likely refer to different individuals of the same names. Matthew gives Shealtiel's father as Jeconiah while Luke gives Shealtiel's father as Neri. It would be normal for a man named Shealtiel to name his son Zerubbabel in light of the famous individuals of those names, read the books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

According to and historian, Eusebius, "Matthew is tracing the primary, or biological, lineage while Luke is taking into account an occurrence of "levirate marriage." If a man died without having any sons, it was tradition for the man’s brother to marry the widow and have a son who would carry on the deceased man’s name." His theory, "Melchi (Luke 3:24) and Matthan (Matthew 1:15) were married at different times to the same woman, tradition names her Estha. This would make Heli (Luke 3:23) and Jacob (Matthew 1:15) half-brothers. Heli then died without a son, and so his (half-)brother Jacob married Heil’s widow, who gave birth to Joseph. This would make Joseph the "son of Heli" legally and the “son of Jacob” biologically. Thus, Matthew and Luke are both recording the same genealogy (Joseph’s), but Luke follows the legal lineage while Matthew follows the biological."

I wonder if what you wrote above made you as dizzy as it made me. That is one helluva roundabout explanation. Maybe that works in your church but it wouldn't with clear thinking people.

Now lets put all that gymnastics aside and deal with just the names I referenced.

1.  Is Zorababel in Matthew 1:16 and Zorababel in Luke 3:22 the same person?

Just a yes or no answer please. Thanks.

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