Keith posted:

A Call to Godly Living

Romans 12:1

The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent. In response, he wrote letters urging Christians not to follow in the ways of the world. Like those early believers, we are to pursue godliness by...

Presenting our bodies to God. Our total being—mind, will, physical body, personality, and emotions—are to be turned over to our heavenly Father (James 4:7). Submitting ourselves to the Lord requires both a definite decision to give Him control and a daily commitment to remain under His authority. By surrendering to Him, we position ourselves for godly living.

Becoming living sacrifices. The Christian life is built around the concept of sacrifice. Jesus left the perfection of heaven to dwell among a sinful people so He might reconcile us to God. He offered up His life for our sake—to make payment for our sins (1 John 3:16) and to bring us into His family. And as believers, we are to follow His example. Paul called it a living sacrifice, because it is ongoing and repeated daily.

Life is full of options. Many decisions involve a choice between following God’s way or our own. Maturing Christians will increasingly sacrifice their own desires and embrace His will.

A life of godliness is characterized by a heart and mind bent toward the things of God. Although we will live imperfectly, our aim should be to obey His will and please Him. Let’s commit to becoming more like Jesus, the one who willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice for us.

"The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent."

No different than today. Nothing has changed since then. The larger the world's population, the more we see people seeking pleasure and indulging carnal activities. Looks like Paul's words did not make a difference.

skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:

A Call to Godly Living

Romans 12:1

The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent. In response, he wrote letters urging Christians not to follow in the ways of the world. Like those early believers, we are to pursue godliness by...

Presenting our bodies to God. Our total being—mind, will, physical body, personality, and emotions—are to be turned over to our heavenly Father (James 4:7). Submitting ourselves to the Lord requires both a definite decision to give Him control and a daily commitment to remain under His authority. By surrendering to Him, we position ourselves for godly living.

Becoming living sacrifices. The Christian life is built around the concept of sacrifice. Jesus left the perfection of heaven to dwell among a sinful people so He might reconcile us to God. He offered up His life for our sake—to make payment for our sins (1 John 3:16) and to bring us into His family. And as believers, we are to follow His example. Paul called it a living sacrifice, because it is ongoing and repeated daily.

Life is full of options. Many decisions involve a choice between following God’s way or our own. Maturing Christians will increasingly sacrifice their own desires and embrace His will.

A life of godliness is characterized by a heart and mind bent toward the things of God. Although we will live imperfectly, our aim should be to obey His will and please Him. Let’s commit to becoming more like Jesus, the one who willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice for us.

"The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent."

No different than today. Nothing has changed since then. The larger the world's population, the more we see people seeking pleasure and indulging carnal activities. Looks like Paul's words did not make a difference.

Exactly Skelly. Check out how these preachers are living Paul's teachings. Even Pastor Stanley that Bro. Keith get his sermons from has a net worth 1.5 million. Religion is all about money, sex and power. Only fools line up to drink the Kool aid.

Developing a Godly Lifestyle

Romans 12:2

Today’s verse outlines the commitment and steps necessary in developing a godly lifestyle. Paul was urgently warning believers not to be conformed to the patterns of the world. Our susceptibility to compromise is one of the greatest dangers in the church today.

Through ungodly relationships and the impact of media, we’re being influenced by people who are not following God’s ways. Our society tells us to put self first, take what we want, protect our rights, and promote our own interests above others’. In contrast, Jesus said that our heavenly Father will provide what we truly need (Phil. 4:19), we are to deny ourselves and follow Him (Luke 9:23), and the humble—not the proud—shall receive honor (James 4:10). Conformity to the world’s ideals will lead us away from God.

At the same time, Paul urged us to pursue godly transformation of our mind, to set our thoughts on things above (Col. 3:2) and to focus on what is true, right, pure, and lovely (Phil. 4:8). Adopting a Christian worldview will lead to Christlike actions. It requires making adjustments in how we look at life, until our thoughts line up with Scripture. We must also protect our mind with biblical truth and surround ourselves with mature believers who can warn us when we start to stray.

Ask yourself, Am I focusing on what is important to the Lord? Avoiding compromise? Making a conscious effort to adhere to biblical truth? Demonstrating a pattern of godly transformation? Let the Holy Spirit empower you to make the changes necessary to be more like Christ.

cain posted:

I never knew George Foreman is also a preacher dam! I have to get myself a good book a milk crate and a loud speaker.

My guess is that George earned his money outside of the church. Not like these others who screwed it out of their financially struggling followers.

Other point is these preachers clearly don't buy into the sacrifices that they preach to their gullible followers.

Down in New Orleans, you have these preachers telling the naked skin folks to cover up but my guess is those preachers are there on the church's dime checking out those naked skin people.

Fellowship With Jesus

Luke 10:38-42

Two sisters were busy preparing for Jesus’ visit. Upon His arrival, Mary turned her attention to the Lord. Meanwhile, Martha was distracted by the preparations (Luke 10:40) and became agitated that her sister was no longer helping. We may be thinking Martha was right—if there was still work to be done, her sister should not have been sitting down. Then we hear Jesus’ perspective. Observing that Martha was worried and upset about many things when only one thing was needed, He said Mary had chosen what was better (Luke 10:42).

There are some important lessons to be learned from this story. First, to have fellowship with Jesus, we may have to leave some things undone. Jesus knew how hard the women had been working and how much Martha longed to finish the tasks. But their greatest need was to spend time with Him. The sisters’ focus was to be on listening, learning, and interacting with Him.

The second lesson is that our choice to forgo an activity may be misunderstood. Martha certainly didn’t comprehend her sister’s decision. What’s more, if we fail to take time with the Lord, there may be unpleasant consequences. We see this in the way Martha’s distraction led to worry and agitation. Jesus invited her to choose the better way—namely, to be with Him.

Establishing a habit of communing with God is essential to our spiritual health. Even in our daily work, we can learn how to maintain an awareness of Him. So aim to choose the better way, as Mary did. Connecting with Jesus regularly will sharpen your focus on what is most important and help you distinguish what is good from what is truly the Lord’s best.

ksazma posted:
skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:

A Call to Godly Living

Romans 12:1

The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent. In response, he wrote letters urging Christians not to follow in the ways of the world. Like those early believers, we are to pursue godliness by...

Presenting our bodies to God. Our total being—mind, will, physical body, personality, and emotions—are to be turned over to our heavenly Father (James 4:7). Submitting ourselves to the Lord requires both a definite decision to give Him control and a daily commitment to remain under His authority. By surrendering to Him, we position ourselves for godly living.

Becoming living sacrifices. The Christian life is built around the concept of sacrifice. Jesus left the perfection of heaven to dwell among a sinful people so He might reconcile us to God. He offered up His life for our sake—to make payment for our sins (1 John 3:16) and to bring us into His family. And as believers, we are to follow His example. Paul called it a living sacrifice, because it is ongoing and repeated daily.

Life is full of options. Many decisions involve a choice between following God’s way or our own. Maturing Christians will increasingly sacrifice their own desires and embrace His will.

A life of godliness is characterized by a heart and mind bent toward the things of God. Although we will live imperfectly, our aim should be to obey His will and please Him. Let’s commit to becoming more like Jesus, the one who willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice for us.

"The apostle Paul lived in an age when sensuality, the pursuit of pleasure, and rebellion against the Lord were prevalent."

No different than today. Nothing has changed since then. The larger the world's population, the more we see people seeking pleasure and indulging carnal activities. Looks like Paul's words did not make a difference.

Exactly Skelly. Check out how these preachers are living Paul's teachings. Even Pastor Stanley that Bro. Keith get his sermons from has a net worth 1.5 million. Religion is all about money, sex and power. Only fools line up to drink the Kool aid.

Don't forget Swaggart spent his on hiring hookers. Jimmy Baker got his money during the time he was banging Jessica Hahn. Billy Graham's son, Franklin is using his father's fame to make a living. Lazy and spoiled idiot.

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Keith posted:

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Now that you have addressed it, your next question should be WWJD. Or better yet, WWPD since Christians follow Paul's teachings.

Keith posted:

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Ask yourself, "why is Charles Stanley fleecing the old and poor"? Why can't he go out and toil for his food like the rest of the world..like getting a real job?

skeldon_man posted:

Don't forget Swaggart spent his on hiring hookers. Jimmy Baker got his money during the time he was banging Jessica Hahn. Billy Graham's son, Franklin is using his father's fame to make a living. Lazy and spoiled idiot.

Ohmagosh that po po Tammy Baker she used to be on tv crying the blues all the time as her face melted.

The Power of Love

Today’s verses teach that love “does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6). This means believers aren’t to dwell on the harm others cause and write them off as hopeless, despicable criminals. Love enables us to hate the evil unjustly visited upon the innocent while valuing the one who committed the act. More simply, we hate the sin but love the sinner.

In spite of everything that seems apparent about someone who’s been driven to sinful actions, God has created him or her with the potential to be made into something good. Outwardly, it may seem as if a difficult upbringing, poor treatment, or negative influence has corrupted a person’s morality and worldview beyond repair. For such individuals, the capacity to love and rise above circumstances can get buried so deep that it may seem nonexistent.

God still considers the most evil and corrupt person worth saving. How do I know this is true? Because in John 3:16—one of the very first verses we teach children—He said that whoever believes in God’s Son will have eternal life. Many of us are guilty of thinking we deserve His love because we look good compared to those we deem unlovable. But God doesn’t work that way. He loves every single person, no matter how awful his or her sin may be.

God doesn’t want anyone to mistreat others; such sinful action will bring repercussions or discipline. But the Lord does extend His care, mercy, and salvation to anybody who wants it. He keeps no record of wrongs. He loves without conditions. And He wants us to love in the same way.

skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Ask yourself, "why is Charles Stanley fleecing the old and poor"? Why can't he go out and toil for his food like the rest of the world..like getting a real job?

I don't have too, maybe you should sit and ponder your thoughts for awhile.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Now that you have addressed it, your next question should be WWJD. Or better yet, WWPD since Christians follow Paul's teachings.

You are all acting a child would. The man job is to preach, "feed the flock" per say. He gets invitation to speaking engagement around the country and world, he's even an author, that's his lively hood. The Baptist church, don't quote me on this, either paid him a salary or not. But even if they do, his net worth is justifiable for the 40 years plus

I cannot speak for those who're in the faith(religion) just for the money and does things that makes the religion looks bad in the eves of you all. Name a religion where there's a leader who have not stumbled.

One has to be careful of whom he/she listens too. Paul said in 2nd Timothy 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." As we sit listening to a pastor/imam/sheikh speak, it's our duty to discern what's true. How? by studying the Word of God. There are many pastors out there I've listened too but their words never resonated with me spiritually.

ksazma posted:

Then again. If we take the Bible literally, Cain was also screwing his mother, Eve.

Cainsta, yuh prappah wutliss.

That is the musim point of view.

Judgemet day coming soon.

Muslims are quick to point out the rise of Islam, claiming it will be the dominant religion in the near future. According to that comment, one can actually start counting off the days of Judgement.

Learned Muslims have declared in writing, that at the END TIMES, the world will hasten towards ONLY ONE RELGION. The OPERATIVE word is the END TIMES.  Chief keeping tabs on the rise of Islam, he goan let alyuh know when the Lord returns. And when the Lord comes, the fiery sword from the Garden of Eden will dash to pieces the Madhi/The Muslim Christ.

 

Two things Saggabai, if you are suggesting that it is not a Biblical point of view that Cain screwed his mother how do you explain the continuation of the population beyond Adam, Eve and Cain. Who screwed who to bring others into life back then?

Secondly, this End Times is a term you believe in so don't go dabbing it on others.

Back to the original statement, if Adam used powerful evacuations to impregnate Eve and they have tons of children, how did everyone get born if either Cain and his brothers weren't screwing their mother or sisters?

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

So what you saying is while he preaches that others should do what Paul taught, he isn't and doesn't have to.

You speak a lot about Paul teaching. What's it that Paul has taught you are referring too?

Funny that immediately after asking this question you quoted Paul's teaching. It didn't take long for you to prove my point. 

ksazma posted:

Two things Saggabai, if you are suggesting that it is not a Biblical point of view that Cain screwed his mother how do you explain the continuation of the population beyond Adam, Eve and Cain. Who screwed who to bring others into life back then?

Secondly, this End Times is a term you believe in so don't go dabbing it on others.

Back to the original statement, if Adam used powerful evacuations to impregnate Eve and they have tons of children, how did everyone get born if either Cain and his brothers weren't screwing their mother or sisters?

I think there were lots of orangutans around at the time. Dem Jewish People were elected the chosen, dem get spared. Cain was a wicked chap, I think he was the first to mess wid animals. Suh, Darwin and his Monkey Business might be true-you descendants are from Cain. seeing you nah Jewish. Suh monkey up in the family tree.  

How you explain the Madhi coming out of Iran. 

Choosing Love Over Rights

Matthew 5:38-48

We talk a lot about rights these days. Yet the attention given to human entitlements hasn’t brought about corporate or personal freedom. Instead, most people are prisoners of jealousy (You have greater rights than I do!), greed (I deserve more!), or bitterness (My rights have been violated!).

In lieu of focusing on what is due them, Christians should follow Christ’s command to love enemies and forgive persecutors (Matt. 5:44). Believers lay down their rights so they can take up the cause of a holy kingdom. That doesn’t mean we let people trample on us. Rather, we offer a proper response according to biblical principles. In short, we should be more concerned about showing God’s love to those who wrong us than insisting on privileges we assume are rightfully ours.

Perhaps you’re thinking that I don’t know how you’ve been mistreated. Indeed I don’t. But I do know how Jesus reacted to terrible abuse. He was betrayed by His friends, persecuted by His people, condemned by His peers, and crucified for our sins. Yet He said, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34).

Before assuming that Jesus’ capacity for forgiveness and love is out of reach for mere human beings, remember: His Spirit dwells in believers. We can choose to give away our rights and let God’s love work through us.

Luke 6:29 says to turn the other cheek and give up more than is asked because expressing love outweighs exerting our rights. You can’t lose when you show others the boundless care of the Lord. You gain His blessing, and what’s more, someone could be saved because of your example.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

So what you saying is while he preaches that others should do what Paul taught, he isn't and doesn't have to.

You speak a lot about Paul teaching. What's it that Paul has taught you are referring too?

Funny that immediately after asking this question you quoted Paul's teaching. It didn't take long for you to prove my point. 

It was intentional and I don't see any point being proved. You speak of Paul and yet don't understand his messages or the Bible in general.

Bai Saggabai, I don't support the theory of God creating only Adam and Eve and neither do Muslims so we are not burdened by the idea of lots of sexing up between Adam, Eve and Cain with producing everyone in the world today through powerful ejaculations as you refer to it.

Secondly, there is no need for any Mahdi from Iran or anywhere else.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

So what you saying is while he preaches that others should do what Paul taught, he isn't and doesn't have to.

You speak a lot about Paul teaching. What's it that Paul has taught you are referring too?

Funny that immediately after asking this question you quoted Paul's teaching. It didn't take long for you to prove my point. 

it was intentional

Not so. Go back and review all your sermons posted here and you will see they are ALL teachings of Paul.

You are failing to answer the question, I don't have to review anything. I am familiar with the Books Paul wrote in the bible.

I am asking you give us clarity on your quote below:
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"So what you saying is while he preaches that others should do what Paul taught, he isn't and doesn't have to."
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As stated before, "You speak a lot about Paul teaching. What's it that Paul has taught you are referring too?"

Keith posted:
skeldon_man posted:
Keith posted:

So here we have a pastor and also an author, Charles Stanley, who's been preaching for over 45+ years amass a net worth of $1.5 million. Am I missing something? What's wrong with $1.5 million over 40 plus years of writing books and preaching? Preachers do get a salary incase you didn't know and they are some who refuse a salary.

Ask yourself, "why is Charles Stanley fleecing the old and poor"? Why can't he go out and toil for his food like the rest of the world..like getting a real job?

I don't have too, maybe you should sit and ponder your thoughts for awhile.

Brother Keith, I have toiled for 46 years and earned everything I own. I did it the hard way, I earned it. Think about it. You appreciate what you own when you earn it. Maybe I should have invented a religion and preach on TV so I can fleece the old and the poor. But, that's not what my conscience told me. I am not a con artist.

If the message of salvation through Jesus was so clear and easy to understand, why do so many Christian preachers resort to deceitful 'miracles' shenanigans to attract followers? Why can't they simply explain their teachings like leaders of other faiths instead of pulling off these 'miracles' scams like what other cults do?

The Character of Gossip

Romans 1:28-31

God hates gossip. He wants our speech to be pleasing to Him—and He certainly does not consider idle talk or mean-spirited words pleasant (Col. 3:8). Sadly, gossip is practiced so freely that even some believers participate and try to justify their chatter. But hearsay has no place in a Christian’s life.

Romans 1 contains one of the Bible’s lists of sins. The book’s author—the apostle Paul—is reminding believers that God has revealed Himself to all mankind. Those who reject Him and chase after idols are turned over to their evil worship and the immoral practices that go with serving self (Romans 1:24-25). Gossip appears in the middle of the list; God despises it because malicious talk destroys lives whether the stories are true or false. The person who is targeted by the rumor often loses the respect of those who listen to it. Hurt feelings may not be the only negative effect; a job or relationship could be lost as well.

Those spreading tales also face destructive consequences. People who refuse to control the tongue reveal evil motives or, at the very least, a lack of discipline. As a result, believers and unbelievers alike will often avoid such untrustworthy individuals. For a Christian who spreads rumors, there’s potential for even worse damage. Not only can the credibility of one’s witness be compromised, but fellowship with the Lord might also be harmed—animosity toward another person and intimacy with God can’t coexist in the same heart.

Gossip achieves no good in anyone’s life, which is why the Lord warns against it. Instead, our words should build up, comfort, and encourage others.

Ending Gossip in Our Life

Ephesians 4:29-32

Spreading rumors about other people exposes little about their true nature but reveals quite a lot about the speaker’s own character. Such behavior shows a willingness to sin against the Lord by causing harm to someone else. Until a gossiping believer confronts his sin, he can’t progress toward becoming the person God wants him to be.

Confession is the first step in dealing with sinful speech. This should be followed by repentance—the pledge to turn away from opportunities to talk about others. A useful scripture for a redeemed gossip to pray daily is Psalm 141:3: “Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips.”

Next, be on guard against temptation. Believers have a responsibility to set themselves apart from gossip in order to keep their thoughts and words pleasing to God. Being in the presence of one who spreads stories can tempt us to participate. In a situation where rumors are being shared, the best course of action is to speak out against the practice and then leave.

Finally, instead of talking about someone, it’s wise to pray for that person. Getting into this habit will help train the mind to replace sinful patterns with God-pleasing ways. The Bible teaches us to encourage and comfort each other, and prayer is a good way to obey that instruction (1 Thess. 5:11, 1 Thess. 5:14).

A gossiping Christian dishonors God’s name—and his own. Instead of using words that disparage and injure, choose to speak well of everyone. In so doing, you will bring glory to the Lord.

What is all this obsession over whether something honors or dishonors God? Of what value is a God whose honor depends on the actions of his creations? It just demonstrates the silliness that preachers preach. Any God worth my attention has to be free of all the difficiencies and insecurities that His or Her creatures have. God does not stop being God just because all His or Her creatures deny them. The nonsense that these preachers will only make sense to silly people.

But then again, it is easy to see why they preach this nonsense. Afterall they read the Bible which tells them that God is a jealous God. Jealous of who? Creatures who are supposed to be so inferior while God is supposed to be so perfect? Any God who is jealous of His or Her creatures is a stupid God and isn't worth anyone's time or effort.

Imagine a lord that needs people to bring glory to it. Such a lord is a creation of those who then turn around and worship that which they created. And to make matters worse, turn around and mock others by labeling them idol worshippers when what you do is no different.

ksazma posted:

Bai Saggabai, I don't support the theory of God creating only Adam and Eve and neither do Muslims so we are not burdened by the idea of lots of sexing up between Adam, Eve and Cain with producing everyone in the world today through powerful ejaculations as you refer to it.

Secondly, there is no need for any Mahdi from Iran or anywhere else.

Suh why you asked the question about where the other people came from.

The time of the muslims were about 1500 years ago. They are not new to knowledge. Before the umbrella of muslim, they were from the babylonians, syrians, assyrians, medes, persians and all ah dem other ......ites. Those societies have lots of documented espisodes of the existense of life. Many of what is written on clay tablets are recorded in the bible. Which is the first, I doan know. But I know God is supreme, He was the beginning, knowlegde is from Him, He gave man the tongue so the man can express his thoughts. Suh, I conclude God is everything and gave that power to The Christ.

ksazma posted:

What is all this obsession over whether something honors or dishonors God? Of what value is a God whose honor depends on the actions of his creations? It just demonstrates the silliness that preachers preach. Any God worth my attention has to be free of all the difficiencies and insecurities that His or Her creatures have. God does not stop being God just because all His or Her creatures deny them. The nonsense that these preachers will only make sense to silly people.

But then again, it is easy to see why they preach this nonsense. Afterall they read the Bible which tells them that God is a jealous God. Jealous of who? Creatures who are supposed to be so inferior while God is supposed to be so perfect? Any God who is jealous of His or Her creatures is a stupid God and isn't worth anyone's time or effort.

The Jewish Rabbi seys, "God don't care one iota what mankind does."

I say, God has sent Christ so that man would have the opportunity of everlasting life. A good person has a place assigned. Likewise a bad person has a delegated place as well.

Christ will be the Judge.

Genuine Awareness

2 Kings 6:15-17

If someone were to ask whether you’re aware of God, you would no doubt exclaim, “Of course I am! I go to church, read my Bible, and pray all the time. I’m quite aware of God.” Now, let’s take it one crucial step further: Are you aware of God’s presence and activity in your daily life?

This second question makes it a bit more personal, doesn’t it? In my daily life? Right here, all the time? We would like to have that constant awareness of God’s presence, but it is difficult. When hardships and trials strike out of nowhere, we often feel bewildered and wonder why the Lord has left us alone.

During times of difficulty, we might pray even harder and longer. We plead for help but see little result. We cry, “Help me! Give me strength!” Or perhaps, “I believe this” or “I can do that.” Do you notice the common factor there? The focus is all on me, me, me, I, I, I. Even during prayer, we may be aware only of ourselves, leaving the Lord out of the matter entirely.

At that point, we may find we’re not really talking to the Father at all; we are talking to ourselves. Perhaps we are focusing on the problem and actually wishing for the ability to handle it on our own. We can, in effect, become completely blind to how God may be working.

2 Kings 6:15-17 gives us a wonderful picture of what can happen when we remove our self-centered blinders and truly see God’s hand at work. Open your eyes. Like Elisha’s servant, you may be shocked to discover the help that God has already sent your way.

seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

Bai Saggabai, I don't support the theory of God creating only Adam and Eve and neither do Muslims so we are not burdened by the idea of lots of sexing up between Adam, Eve and Cain with producing everyone in the world today through powerful ejaculations as you refer to it.

Secondly, there is no need for any Mahdi from Iran or anywhere else.

Suh why you asked the question about where the other people came from.

The time of the muslims were about 1500 years ago. They are not new to knowledge. Before the umbrella of muslim, they were from the babylonians, syrians, assyrians, medes, persians and all ah dem other ......ites. Those societies have lots of documented espisodes of the existense of life. Many of what is written on clay tablets are recorded in the bible. Which is the first, I doan know. But I know God is supreme, He was the beginning, knowlegde is from Him, He gave man the tongue so the man can express his thoughts. Suh, I conclude God is everything and gave that power to The Christ.

I asked where everyone came from to show that if everyone came from Adam, Eve and their son Cain through them having sex then there had to be a lot of sex going on between those three. I don't support the argument that everyone descended from those three and their incests nor does science. 

ksazma posted:
seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

Bai Saggabai, I don't support the theory of God creating only Adam and Eve and neither do Muslims so we are not burdened by the idea of lots of sexing up between Adam, Eve and Cain with producing everyone in the world today through powerful ejaculations as you refer to it.

Secondly, there is no need for any Mahdi from Iran or anywhere else.

Suh why you asked the question about where the other people came from.

The time of the muslims were about 1500 years ago. They are not new to knowledge. Before the umbrella of muslim, they were from the babylonians, syrians, assyrians, medes, persians and all ah dem other ......ites. Those societies have lots of documented espisodes of the existense of life. Many of what is written on clay tablets are recorded in the bible. Which is the first, I doan know. But I know God is supreme, He was the beginning, knowlegde is from Him, He gave man the tongue so the man can express his thoughts. Suh, I conclude God is everything and gave that power to The Christ.

I asked where everyone came from to show that if everyone came from Adam, Eve and their son Cain through them having sex then there had to be a lot of sex going on between those three. I don't support the argument that everyone descended from those three and their incests nor does science. 

There is a show called Aleins. They have the idea that mankind was an experiment.

When one considers the great civilizations around the globe, I cannot come to grips that man was once an ape. In the beginning man was knowledgeable, considering the size of monuments they built. And the thoughts they expressed in written forms. Just considering the Psalms, just stunns the mind of the depth of reflections.  

ksazma posted:

The Psalms was written a few thousand years ago. Humans have been around for hundreds of millions of years. Think about that.

There was a Pharoh who had the insights of there being only one God. He created a new palace, away from the influences of the old system. He penned some of the most amazing thoughts. There is one particular set of thoughts is in the Book of Psalms. I watched a documentary where the woman was moved by the set of words. I remembered reading a Psalm very similar. I am not saying somebody copied it. God is not varying, so  expression of thoughts are simlar in all cultures.    

Telling It Like It Is

Psalm 126

People love inspiring stories. Biographies of the down-and-out who make great use of a second chance tend to top best-seller lists. But few people have a life of such drama—most of us are quite ordinary. Sadly, some believers think that being a “regular Joe” makes their testimony unexciting and therefore less valuable. Nothing could be further from the truth. What the Lord has done for any of us is just as extraordinary as what He did by redeeming those with a past of more noticeable sin.

A personal testimony is a way of expressing what God has done and is doing in one’s life. It is a powerful tool for getting an unbeliever interested in spiritual matters. No matter how commonplace our words may sound compared to someone else’s, the Lord will see to it that they impact the hearers who need them.

Let me give you an example. Suppose a 6-year-old girl named Tina receives salvation. When she is 18, she will be able to tell her friends of God’s greatness. She can explain that He makes the gospel clear to a child and yet reveals something new to her every day. When Tina is 80, she will have a lifetime of service opportunities to share. Her testimony may not be exciting according to the world’s criteria, but it is spiritual gold.

You have no idea how far-reaching your testimony can be. God says that His words will not return to Him without completing the work He sent them to do (Isa. 55:11). When believers share their faith, they are carrying His gospel to a needy world. And the story of Jesus’ saving grace is always inspiring.

That story inspired me to think back to some older neighbours of mine who had two lovely daughters a few years younger than I...one had the name Tina I don't remember the younger one's name...could have been Grace come to think of it. Tina was a beautiful girl...nice breasts. I am now quite inspired to seek her out.

Oi Siggy I just penned my thoughts...could it make the Book of Psalms?

Why We Hesitate to Trust

Luke 5:1-11

On the Sea of Galilee, the optimal time of the day for fishing had passed hours earlier, so the fishermen were now cleaning their nets along the shore. But at the request of an itinerant preacher, one lowered his into the water. The reward for Peter’s trust was a record-breaking—and net-breaking—catch.

As believers, we likewise want success in overcoming doubts so that we can courageously follow God. But sometimes we rely on our own faculties to decide whether or not we will trust Him. Perhaps what He is asking of us seems unreasonable. For instance, the principle of tithing goes against human wisdom: When we give God one-tenth of our income, He makes the remaining 90 percent spread further than a hoarded 100 percent could.

In other situations, we hesitate to trust the Lord because our knowledge or experience contradicts His plan. All of Peter’s expertise indicated that fishing at such an hour would be useless. Sometimes God challenges believers to act even when they do not understand how they can be successful.

Listening to others’ opinions is another stumbling block to unswerving faith. There is a time for seeking godly counsel, but when the Lord makes His will clear, we are to act. We’re not to pick up the phone to ask a few friends what they think. No opinion matters except that of Jehovah, who does not make mistakes in presenting His plan.

The next time you find yourself in doubt, think about what is causing you to hesitate. Then you can pray specifically to overcome the faith hurdle and move on, knowing that God blesses steps we take to follow Him.

cain posted:

That story inspired me to think back to some older neighbours of mine who had two lovely daughters a few years younger than I...one had the name Tina I don't remember the younger one's name...could have been Grace come to think of it. Tina was a beautiful girl...nice breasts. I am now quite inspired to seek her out.

Oi Siggy I just penned my thoughts...could it make the Book of Psalms?

No. Maybe in Solomon's Song of Songs. That man had thousands of wives and of all races and colors. Just imagine how many happy endings he had.

Breasts are a pleasurable anatomy. Who doesn't like them? Looking or caressing.

I juss doan know all these chaps on here who want to put a bag over Kellyann face and do her. That is rape.  

Yo Siggy. I wouldn't mind doing Melania but I don't find Kellyann sexually useful. I wouldn't need to put a bag on Melania's face either because she is not unattractive.

I notice that when you are not talking about those crazy Biblical tales, you can be very engaging.

Wonder if Bro Keith has any personal sex stories to share with us. That would be much more pleasant than these boring sermons. Afterall, I am sure folks enjoyed my tales of my affairs with my white sweet ohman.

ksazma posted:

Yo Siggy. I wouldn't mind doing Melania but I don't find Kellyann sexually useful. I wouldn't need to put a bag on Melania's face either because she is not unattractive.

I notice that when you are not talking about those crazy Biblical tales, you can be very engaging.

Wonder if Bro Keith has any personal sex stories to share with us. That would be much more pleasant than these boring sermons. Afterall, I am sure folks enjoyed my tales of my affairs with my white sweet ohman.

I suspect I am followeed on this site. My handle is well known. I couldn't tell of meh own tall tales on this here BB. Every once in a while I express my personal experiences whenever Cain's wutlessness needs lil bit of meh addition. 

cain posted:

See..hehee. When I first came on GNI I was such a saint, is Siggy who made me wutliss.

Birds of a feather flock together. Iz dats why we hold no grudge. Cuzz up each other is one thing, but wutlessness is wah binds us. You wutliss from lil days. I know, I was lil also many years ago.   

The Church: God’s Design

Hebrews 10:23-25

When you hear the word church, do you picture a little white building full of smiling people in fancy clothes? As lovely as that image may be, God’s design for church is unrelated to it. He created the church to be a unified fellowship of believers who encourage each other and carry out His ministry to the world.

The Bible clearly defines the following as ministries of the church: worshipping the living God, instructing and edifying believers, making disciples of all nations, and serving the needy. Unless the leadership is careful, however, these purposes can all too easily get out of balance, with the unfortunate result that the body ends up malnourished. For example, a church with too heavy an emphasis on praise could become introverted. Congregations that overemphasize teaching might lose their joy, and those that evangelize to the neglect of the other areas could miss out on great faith.

Because of sin and human imperfection, we do not experience church as it was originally intended. Instead, there’s a tendency to overemphasize certain ministry areas. What’s more, divisive arguments—many of which concern minor issues, such as music preferences or clothing choices—too often destroy church unity. Greed, pride, selfishness, and gossip can also tear a congregation apart.

Since they’re composed of imperfect people, churches will be imperfect too, and expecting anything else will lead to disappointment. Nonetheless, we should strive for God’s original design, continually measuring ourselves against Scripture and correcting course to realign with His purpose.

As a designer, God must be a absolute failure when you consider how terrible the result of his design was. Only the Bible harp about a perfect God wanting a perfect human creation but ended up with a very imperfect human race because they couldn't avoid falling into sin. No one should blame God for people not being able to avoid sin but shame on God for expecting a perfect human race from imperfect humans. Only the two religions who follow the Bible believe this nonsense. Peoples of the other religions see proofs from their scriptures that God knew from the beginning that His human creation would be imperfect because He intended to and created them imperfect. When it comes to a God with real knowledge of everything, the God of the Bible seems to be even less knowledgeable than "His" creation.

One can put a much lipstick on a pig as one wishes but it will still be only a pig with lipstick.

Advancing Through Adversity

Psalm 56:3-4

There is a slogan that has worked its way into popular usage over the past few years: the stalwart cry, “No Fear!” Generally, this phrase is attached to some daring athletic attempt. But can the expression also find a deeper meaning related to our Christian life?

Clearly, it is impossible to live in this world without ever facing uncertainty, doubt, confusion, and even honest fear. Scripture does not dismiss these concerns. Instead, the Word is truthful about the adversity that we all face. The right response to these hardships is to admit our fears to the Lord and trust that He will work the situation out for His own glory and our good. (See Psalm 56:11.)

Too many people try to excuse God from responsibility when they come up against an apparently immovable obstacle. What we often fail to realize is that God may desire to use that hardship to shape us into the person He wants us to be.

You see, adversity is an opportunity for God to purify our faith. Because God alone is sovereign in the universe, He desires to be sovereign in our individual lives as well. If we place our faith in anything other than God, He is swift to remove those obstructions that hinder our walk with Him.

If you are going through adversity, pray for the discernment to ask yourself, Is this something that God may be allowing to occur in my life in order to bring me closer to Him? If so, trust Him to reorder your life so He may remain Lord of your faith.

A Purpose of Adversity

Psalm 37:23-28

When we’re going through an intense time of adversity, it seems we usually focus exclusively on the momentary trouble. We frequently fail to see any value whatsoever in our suffering. God, however, has specific purposes for bringing us through times of hardship.

One reason He may allow adversity in our life is to teach us to hate evil. Now, you may be hesitant to use the word hate in any situation, and yet this is exactly what the Word of God instructs us to do. Psalm 97:10 proclaims, “Hate evil, you who love the Lord.”

Isn’t it true, however, that we often don’t act as if we hate evil? In many instances, in fact, our tendency is to play around with it, keeping it close by for our own amusement, and making excuses for its presence in our lives. We may say, “Well, I can’t escape evil in this world. It’s all around me! I guess the best I can hope to do is to try and manage it appropriately.” What a deception this is. We are not commanded to manage or manipulate evil; instead, we are instructed to hate its very presence. Psalm 37 says, “Depart from evil and do good, so you will abide forever” (v. 27). When we see evil, we are to turn around and run in the opposite direction!

Yes, we live in a world that is permeated by evil, and we cannot avoid it at all times. However, we can remove ourselves from particularly tempting situations. The heavenly Father can help us recognize the evil one’s pitfalls in our life. Pray and ask Him today for the wisdom and strength to avoid such traps.

Maybe God needs to revise his strategy because obviously not too many see any value in adversity. For most, hardships do not make them better. They make them worse. Looks like God did not do a thorough study before he devised his grand strategy.

Secondly. The vast majority of people who were born into hard times end up going through life having hard times and end up going to their graves having never knowing anything but hard times. Looks like God's specific purposes for bringing us through times of hardships is nothing other than pie in the sky.

Lastly, there is no correlation between having hardships and hating evil. That is no more than preachers seeking to con people.

cain posted:

You better hope Gentle Jesus not reading this you might make him vex with you.

Bai Cain. God's strategy didn't work for Gentle Jesus either. When he faced adversity on the cross, he quickly began accusing God of forsaking him.

ksazma posted:

Maybe God needs to revise his strategy because obviously not too many see any value in adversity. For most, hardships do not make them better. They make them worse. Looks like God did not do a thorough study before he devised his grand strategy.

Secondly. The vast majority of people who were born into hard times end up going through life having hard times and end up going to their graves having never knowing anything but hard times. Looks like God's specific purposes for bringing us through times of hardships is nothing other than pie in the sky.

Lastly, there is no correlation between having hardships and hating evil. That is no more than preachers seeking to con people.

All of mans hardships are imposed upon them by their fellow man. Creation work fine. So far, mankind cannot alter creation. but dey trying. If God were to kill the people who transgress his statutes, the planet would be without inhabitants. Those who believe in Christ are conscious of the hardships of others and they give alms to manage sufferings as sufferings cannot be eliminated. Not until The Christ returns. 

Standing on a Firm Foundation

Isaiah 52:7; Romans 10:15

When was the last time you had a Bible study on the topic of feet? In all likelihood, you haven’t ever had such a lesson. In fact, you might even be squeamish at the thought of focusing on feet. The apostle Paul, however, did not avoid the subject. He made feet a focal point of one of his most powerful messages: the discussion in Ephesians 6:10-18 about the armor of God. Let’s take a closer look.

Four times in four verses (vv. 11-14 NIV), Paul declares that the armor’s purpose—the value in putting it on piece by piece—lies in its ability to help us “stand,” “stand against the devil’s schemes,” “stand [our] ground,” and “stand firm.” And of course, armor would be incomplete without shoes—which Paul identified as “the preparation of the gospel of peace” (v. 15). Clearly, he knew Christians needed to be on a solid foundation when facing opposition.

The Roman soldier’s sandals had an often overlooked feature: a long spike at the heel of the shoe. Its purpose was to allow the warrior to plant his feet firmly in the ground when an opponent approached. With his feet secured in this way, the soldier had an obvious advantage: He would be able to stand his ground. This part of his uniform enabled him to keep his footing even as he faced the danger.

That is precisely what the heavenly Father wants for every one of His children: the ability to stand firm in the face of troubles. This is possible, however, only when we plant our feet on a firm foundation—the foundation of faith in Jesus Christ. Is your faith well grounded?

In the Fullness of Time

Galatians 4:4-5

In eternity past, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit planned and created heaven and earth. Yet even before Adam breathed his first breath, the Lord knew sin would enter the world, causing mankind to be separated from Him. However, a plan for our redemption was already in place, and in the fullness of time, the Son of God came as a baby and lived on the earth.

The Lord doesn’t do anything haphazardly. Every plan of His is predetermined and meticulously carried out at just the right time. And this truth doesn’t apply to just the big events in human history. Since He has a specific plan for every believer, He works to accomplish His goals in each Christian’s life. He ordained the day of our birth, has complete knowledge of what each day will hold, and knows how long we’ll live on this earth. And just as He did when Christ was born, God will, in the fullness of time, execute each part of His will for your life and mine.

However, although His plans for us are good, the only way we’ll see His purposes fulfilled in our life is by submitting to Him. He’s promised to work all things for our good when we love Him and are called according to His purpose (Rom. 8:28).

Are you letting the Lord have His way in your life? Even when the need seems urgent, a person with a spirit yielded to God waits patiently for the heavenly Father’s plans to unfold at just the right time. The One with complete knowledge and wisdom knows what He’s doing. Wait for the fullness of His time.

Instead of having a plan for our redemption which the vast majority of the world's population would fail based on Christian teaching, why didn't God devise a plan where we wouldn't sin which would guarantee safety for the vast majority of the world's population. Afterall isn't God supposed to be able to do anything/everything and isn't He supposed to be merciful and loving? Just a thought.

Four fundamental questions to asked yourself

Origin: How did I come into being?
Morality: How can I determine what's right and what's wrong?
*Meaning: What's the purpose of life itself?
*Destiny: What happened to human being when he/she dies?

Notice the asterisk next to the last two questions. Those two are mind-boggling in my opinion. Only a thought not a sermon!

ksazma posted:

Instead of having a plan for our redemption which the vast majority of the world's population would fail based on Christian teaching, why didn't God devise a plan where we wouldn't sin which would guarantee safety for the vast majority of the world's population. Afterall isn't God supposed to be able to do anything/everything and isn't He supposed to be merciful and loving? Just a thought.

When God created man he give man free will, didn't he? Here is verse that depict just that. Joshua 24:14-15

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Whatever you decide to do it's your free will. Just choose wisely. Only a thought!

Our Bridge to God

John 14:1-6

The last verse in today’s passage makes a powerful and unequivocal statement. Jesus clearly says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

People have taken exception to that statement for 2,000 years. Some say the Lord didn’t mean for it to be taken literally. Others categorically reject His authority to make the claim at all. However, as believers in the lordship of Jesus Christ, we must take what He says as truth. So let’s think for a moment about the word picture in that verse.

When Jesus calls Himself “the way,” many people imagine a one-way street. They take this to mean that there are lots of roads, but He is the only one that leads to the Father. That’s a good image, but I think we can do even better.

I like to think of Jesus not as a road but as a bridge—our bridge to God. Consider the apostle Paul’s warning in Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (emphasis added). The picture here is of a great chasm between us and God, and we cannot make it across. Unable to bridge the gap, we fall.

So, what is the only way across a chasm? A bridge, of course. And that’s what Jesus is for us. He stands in the gap, providing safe passage across the void and into the loving arms of the Father.

Meditate on this mental image. When we imagine ourselves helpless and lost—with heaven just out of reach, beyond a great divide—we can begin to appreciate the true power of the cross.

Here is where preachers are pinned against the wall even though they will not admit it. God who is supposed to be so wise chose to give humans 'free will' not realizing how much of a terrible idea it will turn out to be given the vast majority of the world's population chose to not honor Him. So he felt so much pressure to fix his error by shedding His own son's blood and still the vast majority disregarded Him. Looks like He is not as wise as people think.

In my opinion, God is characterized in the Bible as one who is very incompetent. One who seems to be second guessing himself as he haplessly learns of his miscalculations. One who is obsessed with himself the way Trump is. In the end, one who doesn't have the knowledge, wisdom or ability to be beneficial the anyone. No sense wasting time and resources chasing the pipe dream hope that he can save anyone.

The Great Divide

Isaiah 55:8-9

When we picture Jesus as our bridge to God, it is natural to think about the things that separate us from the Father. Therefore, let’s examine three metaphors that describe the barriers between us and almighty God.

First, we are separated by height. Scripture calls God the “Most High” and describes Him as “high and lifted up” (Psalm 9:2; Isa. 6:1 ESV). He is above creation and unconstrained by gravity, time, or space. Furthermore, He declares, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways” (Isa. 55:9). Without question, God is above man.

Next, we are separated by distance. Moses experienced God through the burning bush, but even in that holy moment, the Lord warned him not to come too close (Ex. 3:5). Later, when the people of Israel built the temple and tabernacle, God warned them not to enter the Holy of Holies except for a single specific time each year, and then only one person was allowed to enter under strict conditions (Heb. 9:7). There is a distance between man and God that cannot be breached.

Third, we are separated by light and fire (1 John 1:5; Deut. 4:24). We know that staring into a giant spotlight can cause blindness, and standing near a flame can burn our skin. In a similar way, if we were to stand in the presence of holy God, we would be consumed.

Why did Jesus come to us? The reason is that only the perfect, sinless Son of God could reach the Father, come close to Him, and stand in His presence. And, in Christ, we can share in that intimacy.

That is interesting. In another scripture God stated that He is closer to people than their own jugular vein.

This God is disconnected from mankind has to be God's own fault since He is supposed to have enough power to do something about it. And Jesus is clearly NOT the answer since he is so rejected by the vast majority of the world's population. Heck, even his compadres who hanged out with him denied him. Imagine hanging out with people and yet they don't even want to say they know you.

There is another religious personality who it was said of him, "when people heard of him, they were in awe, when they meet him, they fell in love with him". Now that is how you describe a person fully loved and accepted by those around him and even after he left. He once said that one should always leave a place better than he found it and he did that while he was still alive and well. He left things much better than he found them. That is the kind of person you seek to emulate. Not follow an unrealistic pipe dream that 2000 years have already proven is pie in the sky.

Our God of Comfort

2 Corinthians 1:3-4

God’s care for us extends even to the details of our lives. He knows when His children hurt, and He longs to offer comfort (Isa. 49:13).

The Lord’s compassion is personal, continuous, and always available. We receive His comfort through the Holy Spirit, who lives within us. There is no situation or time when He is inaccessible to the believer—we can be consoled and reassured at any moment, day or night.

Consider how the compassion of God was demonstrated through Jesus’ life. He interacted even with the “untouchables”—people whose bodies were infected with a contagious disease (Luke 17:11-14). And no sickness of ours will prevent Him from caring for us.

When Jesus saw people with medical conditions, in compassion He not only healed them physically but also gave an even greater comfort—new life through the forgiveness of sins. And while our infirmities may remain, the Lord lovingly strengthens us to persevere (2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

As for the messes we get into, notice how Peter’s betrayal of Christ was met with forgiveness and reinstatement (John 21:15-17), and Thomas’s doubts were answered by Jesus Himself (John 20:27). Our mistakes won’t stop Him from loving us. Even to His enemies, Jesus left the way open for repentance.

God’s comfort and care are adequate for anything we face, whether it’s poor health, insufficient finances, or family trouble. Then, once we’ve experienced His consolation, we’re to become bearers of comfort to others (2 Corinthians 1:4). Remember, people everywhere are in great need of His compassion.

I find it interesting that the passage states that "God's care for us extends to the details of our lives. He knows when His children hurt, and He longs to offer comfort". There are more than half of the world's population living in poverty. Some who have no idea where their next meal is coming from or when. Yet this God described below above with all His supposed power and longing to offer comfort just let those people languish all the way to their deaths.

Secondly, this lie about Jesus being compassionate with even the untouchables is laughable. There are countless incidents recorded in the New Testament where he was the exact opposite even to the point of calling them demeaning names like pigs and dogs. Jesus is a lot like Donald Trump who has a tendency for calling people by demeaning names.

Even when you consider the situation on the cross you don't see Jesus thinking about how his blood will bring salvation to everyone. What you see instead is his thinking about his own human pain and demonstrating serious lack of faith and trust in God. So this claim about him being compassionate is pure fantasy. Jesus was self centered and arrogant. That is the undisputed evidence from the New Testament.

How to Love Others

Matthew 22:35-40

Jesus told His disciples, “In everything ... treat people the same way you want them to treat you” (Matt. 7:12). Most of us refer to this code of conduct as the Golden Rule.

In theory, we’d probably agree that this is a good foundation for a healthy relationship. Yet it’s tough to live up to such a standard. If we made a list of the ways we hope to be treated and compared it with our own behavior, we’d likely fall short.

And of course, it’s easy to love when others treat us well. But how do we respond when their behavior is hurtful or unpleasant? The truth is, Jesus meant for us to love others all the time, not just when they’re lovable. Regardless of their attitude toward us, we are to think about the relationship qualities we value—like loyalty, trust, encouragement, forgiveness, acceptance, and protection—and let these flow from us in the other person’s direction.

Unfortunately, our society breeds selfishness, greed, and pride, which are enemies of the love Jesus commanded. But when we care for others in the way the Lord prescribes, relationships can thrive and deepen.

Treating others with this kind of love isn’t natural or easy, especially when people are unkind. In fact, loving as Jesus commanded is impossible on our own. But when we trust Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit empowers us and lives His life through us.

Take time to list the ways you hope others will treat you. Then ask, Is that how I treat people? Pray for God to reveal one area where He will help you apply the Golden Rule.

Keith posted:

How to Love Others

Matthew 22:35-40

Jesus told His disciples, “In everything ... treat people the same way you want them to treat you” (Matt. 7:12). Most of us refer to this code of conduct as the Golden Rule.

In theory, we’d probably agree that this is a good foundation for a healthy relationship. Yet it’s tough to live up to such a standard. If we made a list of the ways we hope to be treated and compared it with our own behavior, we’d likely fall short.

And of course, it’s easy to love when others treat us well. But how do we respond when their behavior is hurtful or unpleasant? The truth is, Jesus meant for us to love others all the time, not just when they’re lovable. Regardless of their attitude toward us, we are to think about the relationship qualities we value—like loyalty, trust, encouragement, forgiveness, acceptance, and protection—and let these flow from us in the other person’s direction.

Unfortunately, our society breeds selfishness, greed, and pride, which are enemies of the love Jesus commanded. But when we care for others in the way the Lord prescribes, relationships can thrive and deepen.

Treating others with this kind of love isn’t natural or easy, especially when people are unkind. In fact, loving as Jesus commanded is impossible on our own. But when we trust Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit empowers us and lives His life through us.

Take time to list the ways you hope others will treat you. Then ask, Is that how I treat people? Pray for God to reveal one area where He will help you apply the Golden Rule.

Brother Keith, I always say, "Put yourself in that man's or woman's shoes and see how you feel". I wonder how many Christians in this world think this way? I don't think only Christians go to heaven. If only Christians go to heaven, then hell must be one damn big place. I would not know anyone in heaven.

The Blessing of Loving Others

1 Peter 1:22

If we responded simply from natural impulses, we’d probably be nice when people were kind. At other times, though, we would likely be vengeful, angry, or hurtful.

Yet Jesus clearly teaches us to love even when those around us seem unlovable. And He lived out what He taught: Christ loved us enough to die for us while we were still sinners (Rom. 5:8). Surely, out of gratitude for what He did, and with His strength, we—His followers—can love others (1 John 3:14).

While it’s hard to respond to unkindness with love, such godly behavior can lead to great blessing in our life. First, the Father is pleased. This realization should bring His children joy, peace, and a sense of accomplishment. Next, believers ought to feel excitement and anticipation to watch how God will move in the relationship. Finally, there will be an awareness that the Holy Spirit is working from within, enabling divine love to flow through yielded human lives.

John 13:35 tells of an important benefit: Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” Since unconditional godly love is uncommon in our world, people will notice.

Treating others as we want to be treated is what builds the deep, satisfying connections that all people desire. Without significant relationships, life lacks meaning—regardless of how many possessions or acquaintances we have. So think about the people you come in contact with throughout the week. Are you treating them the way that Jesus modeled?

People have different ideas about heaven. Many have no understanding of God at all, but still like to think of heaven as the "better place" where we all go when we die. Most people don't give heaven much thought until they attend a funeral or a loved one dies.

But the Bible has a lot to say about life after death, and it contradicts popular opinion. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Then in verse 36, Jesus goes on to say, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment." According to these verses, everyone dies, but not everyone goes to heaven (Matthew 25:46; Romans 6:23; Luke 12:5; Mark 9:43).

God is holy and perfect. Heaven, His dwelling place, is holy and perfect, too (Psalm 68:5; Nehemiah 1:5; Revelation 11:19). According to Romans 3:10, "there is none righteous, no not one." No human being is holy and perfect enough for heaven. The people we call "good" are not good at all compared to the sinless perfection of God. If God allowed sinful humans to enter the perfection of heaven, it would no longer be perfect. What standard should be used to determine who is "good enough?" God's standard is the only one that counts, and He has already ruled. Romans 3:23 says that "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." And the payment for that sin is eternal separation from God (Romans 6:23).

Sin has to be punished, or God is not just (2 Thessalonians 1:6). The judgment we face at death is simply God bringing our accounts up to date and passing sentence on our crimes against Him. We have no way to make our wrongs right. Our good does not outweigh our bad. One sin ruins perfection, just as one drop of arsenic in a glass of water poisons the whole glass.

When we stand before God one day, we cannot beg entrance to heaven based on our own merit. We have none to offer. Compared to God's standard of holiness, not one of us is good enough. But Jesus is, and it is by His merit we can enter heaven. First Corinthians 6:9-11 says, "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what many of us were. But by repentance you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." The sacrifice of Jesus covers it all.

The people who go to heaven are all alike in one way: they are sinners who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). They have recognized their need for a Savior and humbly accepted God's offer of forgiveness. They have repented of their old ways of living and set their course to follow Christ (Mark 8:34; John 15:14). They have not attempted to earn God's forgiveness but have served him gladly from grateful hearts (Psalm 100:2). The kind of faith that saves a soul is one that transforms a life (James 2:26; 1 John 3:9-10) and rests fully on the grace of God.

Jesus told the man enquiring about how he can get to heaven that he has to follow the commandments. Those same commandments that Moses brought down from the mountains. He himself followed those commandments so he too can get to heaven. All his predecessors had that same understanding and so did he. Even at the time he was on the cross he believed that. Then after his departure Paul who hated Jesus started preaching against the same commandments that Jesus so diligently followed. I think he did this to stray people away from what Jesus believed because of his hate for Jesus. He was smart enough to use Jesus' name so he can throw people off his scheme. Now Jesus doesn't really have followers who believe what he believed and what he struggled to emphasize. To correct Paul's mischief Muhammad came to remind people of what he, Jesus and all the other who came before them believed. That the only way to heaven is by following the commandments.

Now this only matters for those who believe in a heaven. Those like Hindus who don't believe in heaven will not be interested in how to get to heaven. For those who believe in heaven, Muhammad, Jesus as well as all those who came before them believed totally in following the commandments as the way to get to heaven.

Our Protector

Psalm 121:1-3

Psalm 121 describes the safety that is found in the Lord. Today and tomorrow, let’s look at several verses to better understand our security.

“I will lift up my eyes to the mountains; from where shall my help come? My help comes from the Lord” (vv. 1-2). When this psalm was written, robbers dwelled in the mountains, waiting for innocent travelers to become their unsuspecting victims. Not only that, but wild animals also posed a threat. Needless to say, journeying on these remote hilly roads must have caused anxiety and fear.

Our lives can be like mountainous territory. Do you look to the future and wonder what dangers lurk? The Lord is our helper; He alone is able to protect us, regardless of what lies ahead. Friends and relatives can offer limited assistance, but God knows everything and has all the power necessary to rescue us.

“He will not allow your foot to slip” (v. 3). God has provided everything we need in order to avoid sin. The Holy Spirit directs and empowers us; the Word lights our path so we do not slip. Yet at times, we choose to sin. Almighty God could stop us from disobeying, but He doesn’t interfere with our free will. Instead, He upholds us, enabling us to walk in His way.

These opening verses focus on the Lord’s ability to protect us in treacherous times. Whether trouble originates with others, external circumstances, or our own sin, we can find ourselves in danger and afraid. Thankfully, we have a loving Father who leads us to safety.

To understand Jesus’ response to the rich young ruler’s you are referring too in your statement let look at he question being asked.

Question: "What must I do to be saved?"

We must consider three things: the background of the rich young ruler, the purpose of his question, and the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The young man had asked Jesus, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?", Matthew 19:16. Jesus responded, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments" (verse 19). It appears that Jesus is saying that the young man and, by extension, all people must obey the commandments in order to be saved. But is that really what He was saying? Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an "alternative plan"?

Let explore a bit more, the story of the rich young ruler is found in all three of the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 19:16–23, Mark 10:17–22, and Luke 18:18–23. The man is described as a ruler, which means he was a prince or magistrate of some sort. Since no Roman ruler would address Jesus as teacher or master, it is assumed that this man was a Jewish ruler in the local synagogue. This man also had great wealth according to Matthew 19:22, and Jesus later used His conversation with this man to teach the detrimental effect money can have on one’s desire for eternal life (verses 23–24). The lesson Jesus draws from this incident concerns money, not salvation by works. Do you understand thus far?

The first thing Jesus says to the man’s greeting, "Good teacher," is to remind him that no one is good except God (Matthew 19:17). Jesus was not denying His own divinity. Rather, Jesus was immediately getting the man to think about what "good" really means since only God is good, then what we normally call human goodness might be something else entirely. This truth comes into play later in the conversation. When the man asked Jesus to specify which commandments he should keep, Jesus recited six of the commandments, including “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19). The man replies, “All these I have kept. . . . What do I still lack?” (verse 20), and that is a key statement. The young man was obviously religious and sincere in his pursuit of righteousness. His problem was that he considered himself to be faultless concerning the Law. And this is the point that Jesus challenges.

Jesus tells the man, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me” (Matthew 19:21). The young man decided that Jesus was asking too much. “He went away sad, because he had great wealth” (verse 22). Rather than obey Jesus’ instructions, he turned his back on the Lord and walked away. The man’s choice undoubtedly saddened Jesus as well, because Jesus loved him (Mark 10:21).

The main point
In telling the young man to keep the commandments, Jesus was not saying that he could be saved by obeying the commandments; rather, Jesus was emphasizing the Law as God’s perfect standard. If you can keep the Law perfectly, then you can escape sin’s penalty but that’s a big if. When the man responded that he met the Law’s standard, Jesus simply touched on one issue that proved the man did not measure up to God’s holiness. The man was not willing to follow the Lord, if that meant he must give up his wealth. Thus, the man was breaking the two greatest commands; he did not love his neighbor as himself, and he did not love the Lord with all his heart. He loved himself (and his money) more. Far from keeping “all” the commandments, as he had claimed, the man was a sinner like everyone else. The Law proved it.

If the man had loved God and other people more than he did his property, he would have been willing to give up his wealth to the service of God and man. But that was not the case. He had made an idol of his wealth, and he loved it more than God. With surgical precision, Jesus exposes the greed in the man’s heart greed the man did not even suspect he had. Jesus’ statement that only God is good (Matthew 19:18) is proved in the young man’s response to Jesus’ command.

In His conversation with the rich young ruler, Christ did not teach that we are saved by the works of the Law. The Bible’s message is that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 3:20, 28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Rather, Jesus used the man’s love of money to show how the man fell short of God’s holy standard as do we all. The rich young ruler needed the Savior, and so do we.

Let us understand what is it we are reading and not just read to make hieratical remarks because at the end of those remarks you might end up looking foolish due to a lack understand.

Keith posted:

To understand Jesus’ response to the rich young ruler’s you are referring too in your statement let look at he question being asked.

Question: "What must I do to be saved?"

We must consider three things: the background of the rich young ruler, the purpose of his question, and the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The young man had asked Jesus, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?", Matthew 19:16. Jesus responded, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments" (verse 19). It appears that Jesus is saying that the young man and, by extension, all people must obey the commandments in order to be saved. But is that really what He was saying? Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an "alternative plan"?

 

In His conversation with the rich young ruler, Christ did not teach that we are saved by the works of the Law. The Bible’s message is that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 3:20, 28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Rather, Jesus used the man’s love of money to show how the man fell short of God’s holy standard as do we all. The rich young ruler needed the Savior, and so do we.

Let us understand what is it we are reading and not just read to make hieratical remarks because at the end of those remarks you might end up looking foolish due to a lack understand.

Dude, why do you always tell people that they look foolish when if you were a decent honest person, you would have to admit that it is you who look foolish. At the top you quoted the passage where Jesus told the man to follow the commands to get to heaven but then foolishly went on to say that Jesus was not saying that. With friends like you, does Jesus really need enemies. You are now saying that Jesus was lying to the man. Grace was not a belief of anyone prior to Paul introducing it into the discussion. Jesus knew nothing about grace. He knew nothing about Ephesians, Romans, Galatians or Timothy. Those are all Paul's mischief and they are totally against what Jesus preached and practiced. He was vigilant about following the commands and fought with other when he thought they weren't.

So next time you feel like jumping on your high horse telling others that they look foolish, stop and think for once. You will realize that it is you who look foolish with the things you post.

Take some lessons from me on how to properly propose a thought. I use historical data and form a cohesive conclusion. You instead ramble on and on.

Back to the question you asked Skeldon_man.

Jesus did not tell the man anything about grace when the man asked him about how to get to heaven. He just told him to follow the commands. But he did something even before he told the man to follow the commands. HE REPRIMANDED THE MAN FOR EQUATING HE (JESUS) WITH GOD BY TELLING THE MAN, "WHY CALL ME GOOD, THE ONLY ONE WHO IS GOOD IS GOD". Just like Muhammad believed that the way to get to heaven is by following the commands, so did Jesus, his cousin John and all others who came before them believed the same thing. The first person that deviated from every other believer in God regarding heaven was Paul and those who follow his teachings don't follow Jesus and are not on his side. Muslims are in line with Jesus' beliefs while Christians are in line with Paul's teachings.

Our Keeper

Psalm 121:3-8

Yesterday we learned that God is our protector. Today’s verses from Psalm 121 also portray Him as our keeper.

“He who keeps you will not slumber” (v. 3). Many young children are fearful in the dark. If they awaken when everyone else is sleeping, they might feel alone and scared. Our Caretaker needs no sleep; He is always alert and attentive to our cries, even when our feelings seem to tell us otherwise.

“The Lord is your keeper ... He will keep your soul” (vv. 5, 7). When parents have to leave their children for a while, they choose a trusted person to put in charge. We often say that this individual is “keeping” the kids. The babysitter is expected to protect and provide for the children. How much more invested and capable is our heavenly Father! Besides preserving us physically and spiritually, He restrains us from wrong thoughts, harmful words, and inappropriate actions. His Holy Spirit gives warnings to keep us from evil, and He also provides guidance so we’ll grow in godliness.

“The Lord will guard your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever” (v. 8). God is sovereign. He is with us always—protecting, pointing the way, and teaching us. He accompanies and leads even in the small tasks that seem insignificant.

When we grow up, many of us feel sadness and a little fear as we leave the safety of our parents’ home. But we never leave the precious love and care of our heavenly Father. God is our keeper, and He cares for us better than any earthly mom or dad ever could.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:

To understand Jesus’ response to the rich young ruler’s you are referring too in your statement let look at he question being asked.

Question: "What must I do to be saved?"

We must consider three things: the background of the rich young ruler, the purpose of his question, and the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The young man had asked Jesus, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?", Matthew 19:16. Jesus responded, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments" (verse 19). It appears that Jesus is saying that the young man and, by extension, all people must obey the commandments in order to be saved. But is that really what He was saying? Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an "alternative plan"?

 

In His conversation with the rich young ruler, Christ did not teach that we are saved by the works of the Law. The Bible’s message is that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 3:20, 28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Rather, Jesus used the man’s love of money to show how the man fell short of God’s holy standard as do we all. The rich young ruler needed the Savior, and so do we.

Let us understand what is it we are reading and not just read to make hieratical remarks because at the end of those remarks you might end up looking foolish due to a lack understand.

Dude, why do you always tell people that they look foolish when if you were a decent honest person, you would have to admit that it is you who look foolish. At the top you quoted the passage where Jesus told the man to follow the commands to get to heaven but then foolishly went on to say that Jesus was not saying that. With friends like you, does Jesus really need enemies. You are now saying that Jesus was lying to the man. Grace was not a belief of anyone prior to Paul introducing it into the discussion. Jesus knew nothing about grace. He knew nothing about Ephesians, Romans, Galatians or Timothy. Those are all Paul's mischief and they are totally against what Jesus preached and practiced. He was vigilant about following the commands and fought with other when he thought they weren't.

So next time you feel like jumping on your high horse telling others that they look foolish, stop and think for once. You will realize that it is you who look foolish with the things you post.

Take some lessons from me on how to properly propose a thought. I use historical data and form a cohesive conclusion. You instead ramble on and on.

Back to the question you asked Skeldon_man.

Jesus did not tell the man anything about grace when the man asked him about how to get to heaven. He just told him to follow the commands. But he did something even before he told the man to follow the commands. HE REPRIMANDED THE MAN FOR EQUATING HE (JESUS) WITH GOD BY TELLING THE MAN, "WHY CALL ME GOOD, THE ONLY ONE WHO IS GOOD IS GOD". Just like Muhammad believed that the way to get to heaven is by following the commands, so did Jesus, his cousin John and all others who came before them believed the same thing. The first person that deviated from every other believer in God regarding heaven was Paul and those who follow his teachings don't follow Jesus and are not on his side. Muslims are in line with Jesus' beliefs while Christians are in line with Paul's teachings.

It pays to read and understand what you are reading. Something is wrong with your ability to comprehend...In a nut shell the lesson being thought was YOUR GOOD DEEDS would not get you to the kingdom of God, in other words, heaven.

The following is resource from Ravi Zacharias:

 If you ask most people what you have to do to get into heaven (assuming they believe in heaven or an afterlife), the overwhelming response will be some form of “being a good person.” Most, if not all, religions and worldly philosophies are ethically based. Whether it’s Islam, Judaism, or secular humanism, the teaching is common that getting to heaven is a matter of being a good person—following the Ten Commandments or the precepts of the Quran or the Golden Rule. But is this what Christianity teaches? Is Christianity just one of many world religions that teach that being a good person will get us into heaven? Let’s examine Matthew 19:16–26 for some answers; it is the story of the rich young ruler.

The first thing we note in this story is that the rich young ruler is asking the right question: “What good deed must I do to have eternal life?” In asking the question, he acknowledges the fact that, despite all his efforts thus far, there is something lacking, and he wants to know what else must be done to obtain eternal life. However, even though he is asking the right question, he is asking it from the wrong worldview—that of merit (“What good deed must I do...”); he has failed to grasp the true meaning of the Law, as Jesus will point out to him, which was to serve as a tutor until the time of Christ (Galatians 3:24).

The second thing to note is Jesus’ response to his question. Jesus asks a question in return: why is he inquiring into what is good? In other words, Jesus is trying to get to the heart of the matter, namely, that no one is good and no one does good except God. As noted earlier, the man is operating under a false premise: that man is able to do that which is good and earn his way into heaven. To make His point, Jesus says that, if he wants eternal life, he should keep the commandments. In saying this, Jesus is not advocating a works-based righteousness. Rather, Jesus is challenging the young man’s suppositions by showing the man’s shallow understanding of the Law and human ability.

The young man’s response is very telling. When told to keep the commandments, he asks Jesus, “Which ones?” Jesus continues to gently show the man the error of his ways by giving him the second table of the Law, i.e., the commandments that deal with our relationships to other people. You can almost sense the frustration in the young man’s response when he tells Jesus that he has kept all of these since his youth. Two things to point out here: first, the irony in the young man’s response. In saying he has kept all those commandments since his youth, he has broken the commandment regarding false witness. If he were truly being honest, he would have said that, as hard as he has tried to keep the commandments, he fails on a daily basis. He has a shallow understanding of the Law and an inflated opinion of his own ability. Second, he still knows that he is not good enough; he asks Jesus, “What do I still lack?”

Jesus now confronts the young man’s self-righteousness. He tells him that, if he wishes to be perfect (i.e., complete), he must sell all that he has and come follow Him. Jesus has perfectly diagnosed the man’s “lack”—his attachment to his wealth. The man’s great wealth has become an idol in his life. He claimed to have kept all the commandments, but in reality he couldn’t even keep the first one, to have no other gods before the Lord! The young man turned his back on Jesus and walked away. His god was his wealth, which he chose over Jesus.

Jesus now turns to His disciples to teach them a principle: “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” This was shocking to the disciples, who held the common idea that riches were a sign of God’s blessing. But Jesus points out the obstacle that riches often are, in their tendency to fuel self-sufficiency. His disciples ask, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus answers by reminding the disciples that salvation is of God: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Who can be saved? If left up to man alone, no one! Why is being a good person not enough to get you into heaven? Because no one is a “good” person; there is only one who is good, and that is God Himself. The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The Bible also says that the wages of our sin is death (Romans 6:23a). Fortunately, God did not wait until we somehow learned to be “good”; while we were in our sinful state, Christ died for the unrighteous (Romans 5:8).

Salvation is not based on our goodness but on Jesus’ goodness. If we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved (Romans 10:9). This salvation in Christ is a precious gift, and, like all true gifts, it is unearned (Romans 6:23b; Ephesians 2:8–9). The message of the gospel is that we can never be good enough to get to heaven. We must recognize that we are sinners who fall short of God’s glory, and we must obey the command to repent of our sins and place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Christ alone was good enough to earn heaven, and He gives His righteousness to those who believe in His name (Romans 1:17).

Ravi's concept is wrong. At least where Islam is concerned. Getting to heaven has nothing to do with being a good person. Even Jesus had a problem with the man addressing him as good. Getting to heaven is based on doing good. The more good you do the higher your station in heaven. No one can be as good as God and God is not unreasonable to expect or demand what he knows man cannot be. Even Jesus said he is not good like God. Paul corrupted Jesus' teachings because he hated Jesus. One is better off rejecting Paul and his corrupted teachings.

If Jesus was only good enough to earn heaven, how could he then give that good to others without falling short of enough good to earn heaven? Do some basic math nah.

The truth is that Jesus is only responsible for himself and so is everyone else. No one bears the burden of anyone else. Not Jesus, not Muhammad or anyone else. Everyone earns heaven on their own and they get as little or as much as they earn. That is what reasonable sounds like.

Notice how all the references that denounced Jesus' belief in getting to heaven is through following the commands are coming from Paul. That is the recurring theme. Jesus used to quarrel with the people around him because they were not doing enough. Why would he do that when he could have just told them that all they need is grace. That is because he did not believe in grace. Rather, he believed in works and he lived his life by works to the end.

If my child came to me and said "daddy, take me to the store". I would understand that he wants to go to the store and my action is to take him. If I paused and tells him that he should have said, "daddy, please take me to the store", I would in effect be emphasizing the importance of him being mannerly and polite more than the need for him to get to the store.

That is precisely what Jesus did. The man asked Jesus what he needs to do to have eternal life. Jesus intended to tell him to follow the commands as the only way to get to heaven.

But even before Jesus give him that important information, Jesus reprimanded him for addressing him (Jesus) as good emphasizing that only God is good.

After clarifying that only God is good (and since Jesus doesn't want to be addressed as good, then Jesus is not good) he went on to tell him that the way to heaven is to follow the commands.

But he said something important about those ten commands. He told the man to observe the first command in particular.

So what is that first command?

I am the Lord thy God! Thou shalt have no other Gods but me!

Jesus obeyed God's command to Moses without any if, and or buts. He did not equate anyone with God nor did he ask anyone to equate him with God. Had Paul never existed, the beliefs of Jesus would have maintained its basis similar to all others who came before him. The Scribes and Pharisees were never awaiting God coming and living amongst them. They were awaiting a Prophet from God to come and live amongst them. Jesus was that Prophet of God but their expectations of what his circumstances should have been caused them to not recognize him. They were looking for someone from a certain social, economical and political background but since Jesus was born under extremely humble circumstances they couldn't accept him. They were accustomed to having leaders who were kings and princes so when Jesus was born in a barn, they couldn't see him as significant or even equal to their previous leaders who were kings and princes, much less the leader of their previous leaders.

And that, brother Keith is how one processes a thought.   Have a good weekend.

cain posted:

Oh rant imagine bossman tell his people ,all they need is grace." Dis Grace sounds like either a Ho' or Healer.

The trouble though is that bossman never told his people that all they need is grace. It was after he was no longer here to represent himself that a dude who hated him began preaching that all bossman's people need is grace. Bossman didn't like that dude very much and by that dude's own admission said;

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9: 4-5

 

I don't know what the new term is but not so long ago the term 'dickhead' was used to describe some people. Prior to the term 'dickhead' being used, the term 'prick' was used to describe similar people. What type of people did Jesus describe as pricks.

ksazma posted:

Ravi's concept is wrong. At least where Islam is concerned. Getting to heaven has nothing to do with being a good person. Even Jesus had a problem with the man addressing him as good. Getting to heaven is based on doing good. The more good you do the higher your station in heaven. No one can be as good as God and God is not unreasonable to expect or demand what he knows man cannot be. Even Jesus said he is not good like God. Paul corrupted Jesus' teachings because he hated Jesus. One is better off rejecting Paul and his corrupted teachings.

I don't know what Kool-Aid you been drinking, Marja/Imam you been listening too or book you been reading to find Paul hatred of Jesus where Paul corrupted Jesus teaching. Show us your proof of that and I will show you where you lack the understanding of the bible.

I currently don't have the idle time to respond to every fallacious statement you type here. But in case you missed the point of what Jesus was teaching, here it is again"

"In telling the young man to keep the commandments, Jesus was not saying that he could be saved by obeying the commandments; rather, Jesus was emphasizing the Law as God’s perfect standard. If you can keep the Law perfectly, then you can escape sin’s penalty but that’s a big if. When the man responded that he met the Law’s standard, Jesus simply touched on one issue that proved the man did not measure up to God’s holiness. The man was not willing to follow the Lord, if that meant he must give up his wealth. Thus, the man was breaking the two greatest commands; he did not love his neighbor as himself, and he did not love the Lord with all his heart. He loved himself (and his money) more. Far from keeping “all” the commandments, as he had claimed, the man was a sinner like everyone else. The Law proved it"

The Father’s Good Gifts

Matthew 7:7-11

One of God’s most generous assurances to His children is found in today’s reading from Matthew 7. Not only are we granted permission to come to the Father with our requests, but He also promises to answer our prayers. However, you may be thinking, If this is true, why hasn’t He given me what I asked for?

The key to understanding this passage is found in verses 9–11: “What man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? ... If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” Think in terms of parenting. A child may want the latest video game, but his parent knows that a different gift would be better for him. In the same way, the God who made us is more keenly aware of our needs than we are (Matt. 6:8).

Because of spiritual immaturity or the limitations of our humanity, we may ask for what we perceive as good and necessary, when it isn’t truly in our best interest. But our Father gives what He knows is more beneficial. The qualities of Christlike character are among His best gifts, but these develop through trials and testing. We may feel He’s given us a snake instead of a fish, but the problem is with our lack of understanding, not with the Lord’s goodness.

When it seems that the Lord isn’t answering your requests, remember that He’s a loving Father, and consider what good gifts He is giving instead. Although it may take years to gain a godly perspective, in time you’ll say, “Lord, You were right. Thank You for giving me exactly what I needed.”

Question bro Keith. If Jesus didn't think that the man can get to heaven by keeping the commands, why would he waste his time telling the man to keep the commands? You stated that you don't have idle time to address my statements. Does that mean that Jesus had more idle time than you since he wasted his time telling the man the wrong thing?

Secondly, if Paul didn't hate Jesus, why did Paul say that Jesus asked him why he, Paul was persecuting him, Jesus? Did Jesus again had idle time to ask Paul an unnecessary question?

ksazma posted:

Question bro Keith. If Jesus didn't think that the man can get to heaven by keeping the commands, why would he waste his time telling the man to keep the commands? You stated that you don't have idle time to address my statements. Does that mean that Jesus had more idle time than you since he wasted his time telling the man the wrong thing?

My REPLY: First, you choose to ignore my called to provide proof of Paul's detestation and corrupt teach of Jesus. Not surprise! I can understand the ignorance due to your failure to comprehend the Bible. Have you ever pick up the Bible and read it from Genesis to Revelation, I think not otherwise I am sure we would not be discussing your claptrap.

If you didn't know the Bible instructs us all to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."...Do you understand that statement?

Now in reference to your question. Without an understanding of the context, this can certainly sound as if Jesus is saying that the man could have been saved by keeping the commandments. How many times have I echo for you to look at the surrounding verses more carefully. The dialog between Jesus and the rich, young ruler is found in Matthew 19:16-22, Mark 10:17-22, and Luke 18:18-23, with the subject continuing to be discussed in the verses that follow.

Have you not learned "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

Secondly, if Paul didn't hate Jesus, why did Paul say that Jesus asked him why he, Paul was persecuting him, Jesus? Did Jesus again had idle time to ask Paul an unnecessary question?

My Reply: Why are you trying to doubt what you failed to understand? Is this statement hatred? Man you are being ludicrous. Hey I not calling you name just pointing out the obvious.

Do you know the background of Paul? Why don't you read the book of Acts through Hebrews or just up to Timothy then lets talk about Paul.

Hey, do have a great day and enjoy the rest of the week. Love you Bro.

The Character of a Good Soldier

2 Timothy 2:1-3

In 1 Timothy 6:12, Paul calls on believers to “fight the good fight of faith.” Like first-century Christians, believers today are in a three-front war against the flesh, the world system, and Satan. The military metaphor is a good reminder that believers must prepare for daily spiritual battle. A good soldier ...

Is strong in Christ. Paul knew that the Lord stood by his side and strengthened him during trials (2 Tim. 4:17). The Holy Spirit provides the courage and power to obey God’s commands, so we can rely upon His might to carry us to victory against any enemy.

Shares knowledge. The church possesses not only the good news about salvation; it has all the riches of God’s Word. Many people have listened to biblical teaching and experienced the Lord interceding in their lives. To keep those lessons to oneself can leave unbelievers in harm’s way and deprive fellow Christians of necessary wisdom.

Suffers willingly. Hardship is part of combat and, therefore, part of the Christian experience. Believers will endure adversity and be asked to make sacrifices. It is little wonder, then, that Paul reminds Timothy to stand strong in the Lord and to uphold others (2 Tim. 2:1-2).

A wise commanding officer gives his troops a war cry that encourages their hearts and emboldens their steps. Paul had one, too: “Remember Jesus Christ” (2 Tim. 2:8). Keep in mind that you serve an omnipotent Lord. He stands beside you, takes part in your suffering, and holds you securely through the most formidable battles.

The above is the definition of persecute. Paul said that Jesus asked him why he (Paul) persecutes him (Jesus). The meaning of words have consequences. Why would Jesus say that Paul was persecuting him? That is more than enough evidence that Paul hates Jesus. But there are more evidence. Paul has all Christians paying even less attention to the commands than Jesus did. Jesus was very particular in following the commands and even fought vociferously with his contemporaries when he thought they were not giving enough attention to the commands. He even told the man that if he wants eternal life, he should follow the commands. Every religious leader work diligently to train their followers to follow their belief system and all Paul did was completely destroy everything that Jesus stood for. Imagine spending all your resources building a house and someone comes around and light it afire. That is evidence of hatred for that person who dedicated all their resources into building that house. Now there are many other evidence but those examples are more than reasonable.

Galatians was written by Paul and it totally contradict what Jesus believed in. Acts, Hebrews and Timothy are all written by Paul so what is the use. The reality is that Jesus knew nothing about grace when he walked this world. He knew about works and he lived strictly by works. Either Jesus is real and Paul's doctrine about grace is false or Paul's doctrine about grace is real and Jesus is false but they both cannot be real.

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Single-Minded Focus

2 Timothy 2:4-5

“No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life” (2 Tim. 2:4). The word for “entangle,” which also occurs in 2 Peter 2:20, means to be so wrapped up in something that movement is hindered. This is the term the Greeks would have used to describe a rabbit ensnared in a thorn patch.

Peter’s letter admonished followers not to return to past sins, but Paul was emphasizing a different lesson: He was warning Timothy against allowing essential daily pursuits to supersede a commitment to Christ. Paul himself at times worked as a tentmaker while carrying on with ministry; however, he realized there was potential for an occupation to become all-consuming, to the detriment of a person’s spiritual life.

Growing and managing wealth, providing for one’s family, and taking advantage of leisure time are important activities. In fact, God encourages all of them. However, these blessings are not to become distractions that draw believers away from church or regular prayer and Bible study. Nor are we to compartmentalize our life into “Christian ministry” and “regular work/play.” We are Christ’s soldiers, no matter where we are or what we are doing—there is no such thing as a part-time warrior.

It’s important for believers not to draw artificial boundary lines between the secular and the sacred. Everything God gives—from vocation and wealth to leisure activities—is to be used for His glory. By keeping priorities straight and activities in balance, you can prevent hobbies and interests from becoming a snare.

ksazma posted:

The above is the definition of persecute. Paul said that Jesus asked him why he (Paul) persecutes him (Jesus). The meaning of words have consequences. Why would Jesus say that Paul was persecuting him? That is more than enough evidence that Paul hates Jesus. But there are more evidence. Paul has all Christians paying even less attention to the commands than Jesus did. Jesus was very particular in following the commands and even fought vociferously with his contemporaries when he thought they were not giving enough attention to the commands. He even told the man that if he wants eternal life, he should follow the commands. Every religious leader work diligently to train their followers to follow their belief system and all Paul did was completely destroy everything that Jesus stood for. Imagine spending all your resources building a house and someone comes around and light it afire. That is evidence of hatred for that person who dedicated all their resources into building that house. Now there are many other evidence but those examples are more than reasonable.

Galatians was written by Paul and it totally contradict what Jesus believed in. Acts, Hebrews and Timothy are all written by Paul so what is the use. The reality is that Jesus knew nothing about grace when he walked this world. He knew about works and he lived strictly by works. Either Jesus is real and Paul's doctrine about grace is false or Paul's doctrine about grace is real and Jesus is false but they both cannot be real.

Just a few questions for you on top of the ones you have yet to answers. Why did Jesus asked Saul/Paul that question? Is that a hateful question? Is the following a hateful question? ksazma, ksazma why are you slandering what you failing understand?

Forget the questions above and show me where Paul destroyed everything Jesus stood for?

Have you read the book of Acts - 2 Timothy? to get a true understand of the man Saul...I mean Paul?

On the subject of grace. Why don't you read before speaking about things you have no understand of to get understanding. Look at John 8:1-11. The fact that you are alive and able to breath, walk etc. That's GRACE of Jesus.

Why would I care what the con man Paul wrote about himself. That is no different from all the things Trump said about himself and people are already finding out what a huge con man he is. Similarly those like myself who are not religious hacks can easily see what a con man Paul is. Religious hacks cannot see that clearly.

ksazma posted:

Why would I care what the con man Paul wrote about himself. That is no different from all the things Trump said about himself and people are already finding out what a huge con man he is. Similarly those like myself who are not religious hacks can easily see what a con man Paul is. Religious hacks cannot see that clearly.

Is that an acknowledgement you have no proof to show me where "Paul destroyed everything Jesus stood for?"

If you doesn't read to edified yourself you will not understand what's being discuss
. Whomever you are listening too is feeding you a misrepresentation of the Word of God and you believe it without seeking out the answer for yourself. I also insist you don't take everything I mention here as Gospel, I challenge you to READ and seek truth. Quit listening to what people apprise you as a youth and READ!.

Where did I state that I never read those books. Didn't I state some time back that I have read the whole Bible? I am not interested in Paul propping himself up after Jesus was dead. He wouldn't have dared that when Jesus was here because Jesus would have totally demolished him. Now that Jesus is dead and can't help or hurt anyone, Paul was free to completely bastardize Jesus' teachings and since Jesus didn't make many friends when he was alive, there were not many if any willing or caring to come to Jesus' defense.

Additionally, I have given more evidence than is reasonable.

Think of this. Preachers claim that the Gospels are the word of God or that they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yet we see Luke completely disagreeing with that premise. Luke began his work by stating that many have written about the life and times of Jesus but unfortunately their works are a hodgepodge since they are not as familiar of Jesus as he was. He thought that since he is more educated, he can do a better job. Yet preachers are not willing to accept Luke's admission but they take Paul's words blindly. Paul has managed to steal people who were supposed to follow Jesus away from Jesus and on to Paul's doctrines.

That is why we have the saying "Peter pays for Paul and Paul pays for all". Peter was supposed to advance Jesus' ministry but he fell asleep on the job and allowed Paul freedom to destroy Jesus' ministry.

ksazma posted:

Where did I state that I never read those books. Didn't I state some time back that I have read the whole Bible? I am not interested in Paul propping himself up after Jesus was dead. He wouldn't have dared that when Jesus was here because Jesus would have totally demolished him. Now that Jesus is dead and can't help or hurt anyone, Paul was free to completely bastardize Jesus' teachings and since Jesus didn't make many friends when he was alive, there were not many if any willing or caring to come to Jesus' defense.

Additionally, I have given more evidence than is reasonable.

Glad to have clarification that you read the Bible. The problem here it's understanding what you have read. Start with the basic when reading, WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY...lets add HOW to the mix.

What's highlighted above is the utter nonsense from people I would say failed to understand what he/she has read.

Here is a thought: "Jesus Christ did not come to make bad people good, but to make dead people alive."

I know where you stand on providing evidence, so lets not waste each other time.

ksazma posted:

Think of this. Preachers claim that the Gospels are the word of God or that they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yet we see Luke completely disagreeing with that premise. Luke began his work by stating that many have written about the life and times of Jesus but unfortunately their works are a hodgepodge since they are not as familiar of Jesus as he was. He thought that since he is more educated, he can do a better job. Yet preachers are not willing to accept Luke's admission but they take Paul's words blindly. Paul has managed to steal people who were supposed to follow Jesus away from Jesus and on to Paul's doctrines.

That is why we have the saying "Peter pays for Paul and Paul pays for all". Peter was supposed to advance Jesus' ministry but he fell asleep on the job and allowed Paul freedom to destroy Jesus' ministry.

Again, what's mention above is utter nonsense from people I would say failed to understand what he/she has read.

The disciples, including Luke as you mention above I would say know Christ better than anyone of us here reading this post. 

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ksazma Quote: "Luke began his work by stating that many have written about the life and times of Jesus but unfortunately their works are a hodgepodge since they are not as familiar of Jesus as he was."
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Where is this written? Who are the "they" you are referring too? Don't know what you are trying to say but this is the type of claptrap you keep post here. Stop posting pieces of scriptures and post the entire chapter/verse to get the full content of what's being discuss.

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ksazma Quotes: "Yet preachers are not willing to accept Luke's admission but they take Paul's words blindly. Paul has managed to steal people who were supposed to follow Jesus away from Jesus and on to Paul's doctrines."
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What admission? That Luke knows more than todays preacher/pastors do and are hodgepodge as you are? You certainly don't have anything better to do but to write the nonsense I highlighted here.

Interesting how I can back up my arguments when I care to. Where did Luke state that he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his account of Jesus? Rather he stated that he was inspired by others' accounts and since he was had better knowledge of it.

Trust me. I am able to understand the written word because I am not enslaved by what the preachers want me to believe. How can preachers say with straight faces that Luke did not mean what he stated?

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

How to Pass Down Our Faith

Deuteronomy 4:9

The most valuable “possession” believers can leave to family and friends is faith in Jesus Christ. While everyone must choose to trust in the Savior for him- or herself, Christians can and should share key biblical truths with loved ones.

These essentials of the faith should not be kept to ourselves:

Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12). From an early age, children should be taught that the most important relationship they’ll ever have is with the Lord. Believing in Him and obeying Him is vital.

Everything that exists was created by the Lord, and He owns it all (Psalm 24:1). We’re managers of our resources, not owners. As stewards, we are to invest in God’s kingdom and not just spend on personal pleasures. His priorities are to become our own.

God has a purpose for each of us, and discovering it is very important (Eph. 2:10). We can look for opportunities to share what we are learning about God’s plan for our life. In the process, our loved ones might become curious about what His purpose is for them.

God will provide whatever we need to carry out His plan (Eph. 4:11-13). Our heavenly Father gives us talents and spiritual gifts to achieve His purposes and plans. He has promised that we will have what is necessary for us to live a life that’s pleasing to Him.

Why wait to start sharing your faith? Each day offers new opportunities to speak of our Savior. Think about the people to whom you could pass along this precious possession.

ksazma posted:

Interesting how I can back up my arguments when I care to. Where did Luke state that he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his account of Jesus? Rather he stated that he was inspired by others' accounts and since he was had better knowledge of it.

Trust me. I am able to understand the written word because I am not enslaved by what the preachers want me to believe. How can preachers say with straight faces that Luke did not mean what he stated?

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

I don't think you quit understand what those verses are saying. First of all if you are trying to tell me that Luke was not inspired by the Hold Spirit to write the Book of Luke - Acts let me put your doubt to rest right now.

Biblical inspiration may be defined as God's superintending of the human authors so that, using their own individual personalities and even their writing styles, they composed and recorded without error His revelation to man in the words of the original autographs. Inspiration means that "the Holy Spirit of God superintended the human writers in the production of Scripture so that what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written."

When you break the doctrine of inspiration down to its essential elements, there are seven key factors:

Divine origin and causality;
Human agency;
Written verbally (in words);
Plenary (all of Scripture is inspired, not just parts of it);
Only the "Autographs" (the original documents penned by the biblical authors) are inspired;
Because Scripture is inspired, it is inerrant; and
Because Scripture is inspired and inerrant, it alone has final authority.

Jesus promised His followers that it would be the work of the Holy Spirit to provide an accurate recounting of the events of His life (John 14:26). And because of this, I can trust the Bible as the Word of God. The Holy Spirit superintended the process from beginning to end.

Now about the verses you quotes , Luck 1:1-3
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word have handed them down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; (Luke 1:1-3).

Many have taken in hand: Luke writes his gospel with the full knowledge that many have already written histories of the life of Jesus. This may be a reference to the works of Mark and Matthew most people think John was written after Luke, and it may also refer to other biographies of Jesus not directly inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Luke writes about those things which are most surely believed among us. He is writing about things already commonly known and believed among Christians. When Luke wrote, most Christians already knew all about the life of Jesus, both from the oral accounts passed on by the original disciples, and by the biographies that had already been written.

Most excellent Theophilus: Luke addresses his gospel to a man named Theophilus, but it was also written with a wider audience in mind.

By his title most excellent, we gather that Theophilus was probably a Roman government official. It is entirely likely that the books of Luke and Acts make up Paul's defense brief for his trial before Caesar, since Acts leaves Paul waiting for that trial.

Whoever Theophilus was, he had already had some instruction in the faith in which you were instructed.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (Timothy 3:16-17)

I am glad that you brought it back to it all being inspired by God and you ended with 2 Timothy, 3:16-17. Now my friend, please explain the story about Samson meeting a whore on the road to Gaza and had sex with her. We also have the story of Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law on the roadside. Please explain how 2 Timothy, 3:16-17 applies to these two instances. There are many more but I don't care to add them.

I am ignoring your response to Luke 1:1-3 because it was basically a classic ramble that did not address what Luke stated. Try again. What did Luke mean when he wrote "it seem good to me also"? Do yourself a favor and address only that statement because if you expand it further, you may just end up tripping over yourself like you did in the response yesterday.

 

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Living Out Our Faith

1 Peter 1:6-9

True faith is based upon Scripture and embraces its eternal principles. Genuine belief trusts that God is who He says He is and that He’ll do everything He has promised.

Such faith is worth sharing with others, and this can be done in several ways. For one thing, we can verbally explain our beliefs. But we can also model a godly lifestyle, which is frequently an even more effective method of influencing people for Christ.

Once during high school, I went to see my grandfather and visited with him for a week. We spent a lot of time talking—he listened carefully to me and then spoke about the ways God had worked in various situations over the years. At the end of that week, I went home thinking, God, if You will do that with my grandfather, what will You do in my own life? My faith grew stronger because of those days with him.

I was also profoundly influenced by the many times I heard my mother pray. When circumstances were hard, she would kneel by the bed with me and speak to our heavenly Father. In those quiet moments, I learned that we can trust God when things look hard or even impossible. I also discovered that God is faithful.

Consistency and perseverance are two other important facets of the faith we pass down. Children look to see if we mean what we say and if we will still rely on God when trouble comes. We can use our trials to demonstrate how a godly person responds. As we live out our faith in a visible way, we will be handing down something far more valuable than gold or silver.

ksazma posted:

I am ignoring your response to Luke 1:1-3 because it was basically a classic ramble that did not address what Luke stated. Try again. What did Luke mean when he wrote "it seem good to me also"? Do yourself a favor and address only that statement because if you expand it further, you may just end up tripping over yourself like you did in the response yesterday.

 

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

This is the problem I kept echoing over and over, you take a phrase or one sentence without reading the before, after or the entire chapter.

So now I say to you READ! Luke 1:1, the verse you took the phrase from and the verse after. I hope you get understanding as you read not once but twice.

ksazma posted:

I am glad that you brought it back to it all being inspired by God and you ended with 2 Timothy, 3:16-17. Now my friend, please explain the story about Samson meeting a whore on the road to Gaza and had sex with her. We also have the story of Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law on the roadside. Please explain how 2 Timothy, 3:16-17 applies to these two instances. There are many more but I don't care to add them.

Will address later busy at the moment unlike you I've a job I get paid to do all the best.

Two things. The point I was making is that Luke admitted that he was not writing his account of Jesus because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. He admitted that he did it because he thought he was more capable than those who did before. This also showed that he thought they did so on their own too and not because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Secondly, there goes your condescending attitude again suggesting that unlike you, I don't have a job I get paid to do. For your information, I get paid to be a Financial Controller. I don't know how you feel about that job but I do see it as a responsible one.

The following passage deals with a current activity. It states, "O believers, fasting was prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so you can develop self control". Notice how the passage tells what to do and why? Now your task is to explain why Samson and Judah's having sex on the roadside with a prostitute in the case of Samson and in the case of Judah, he mistook his daughter in law for a prostitute. How do those two passages fit into 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

ksazma posted:

Two things. The point I was making is that Luke admitted that he was not writing his account of Jesus because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. He admitted that he did it because he thought he was more capable than those who did before. This also showed that he thought they did so on their own too and not because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so.

My Response:
First, lets address the "Holy Spirit" before we go any further to get an understand of it purpose. In a nutshell Holy spirit is a teacher of rightness one who enable us with understanding of all things, things that we need to know.

Sorry about be so length but the point is to get a clear understand of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would send the Spirit to us to be our Helper, Comforter, and Guide. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16). The Greek word translated here “Counselor” means “one who is called alongside” and has the idea of someone who encourages and exhorts. The Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence in the hearts of believers (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 12:13). Jesus gave the Spirit as a “compensation” for His absence, to perform the functions toward us which He would have done if He had remained personally with us.

The Spirit’s presence within us enables us to understand and interpret God’s Word. Jesus told His disciples that “when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). He reveals to our minds the whole counsel of God as it relates to worship, doctrine, and Christian living. He is the ultimate guide, going before, leading the way, removing obstructions, opening the understanding, and making all things plain and clear. He leads in the way we should go in all spiritual things. Without such a guide, we would be apt to fall into error. A crucial part of the truth He reveals is that Jesus is who He said He is (John 15:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3).

Now lets look at the verse in question.
Luke 1:3
"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,"


Luke is writing what he experience and know about Jesus. His experience like the ones before him such as, Matthew, Mark, and John just to name a few, was lead by the holy spirt which bring all those things into remembrance to write about. Notice the "also" in the verse you seem so fixated about, when there is an "also" we need to look and see what was stated before. Lets examine the verses before Luke 1:3. 

Luke 1:1-2
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

Among Us, disciples of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, Peter, James, etc.)
In the verses above Luke is saying many before him being eyewitnesses have given their written account about the life of Jesus. Hence his statement below.

"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write......"

Here Luke is saying he also will give his account of the things he witness.


ksazma posted:
Secondly, there goes your condescending attitude again suggesting that unlike you, I don't have a job I get paid to do. For your information, I get paid to be a Financial Controller. I don't know how you feel about that job but I do see it as a responsible one.

My Response:
I apologize my comment was not meant to be condescending. I thought you mention somewhere before about being self employed hence my statement. I'm an IT Security Engineer and yes I do understand how responsible our jobs can be.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

I am glad that you brought it back to it all being inspired by God and you ended with 2 Timothy, 3:16-17. Now my friend, please explain the story about Samson meeting a whore on the road to Gaza and had sex with her. We also have the story of Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law on the roadside. Please explain how 2 Timothy, 3:16-17 applies to these two instances. There are many more but I don't care to add them.

Will address later busy at the moment unlike you I've a job I get paid to do all the best.

The simple explanation I can offer you is despise man's short coming God still find a way to used man to edify others in their short coming and to bring forth his purpose and plan. King David, the man after God's own heart, was a murdering adulterer. Abraham, the father of nations, lived a lie using his wife as a pawn to save his own skin. Peter denied Jesus cursing the One who loved him most. Did you know in Jesus linage the woman Rahab was a prostitute?

The list goes on and on of men and women who loved God, men who were greatly used by God almost driven to the ground by their weaknesses. Yet, God was always there saying, "I called you; I will be with you! I will take away the evil of your heart! I will accomplish my will, regardless!"

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:25.

When I Say Weakness, I Do Not Mean Sensuality. God does not use people weak in righteousness. A man's weakness can lead him into adultery, gambling, drinking and all kinds of indulgences. God is not referring to that kind of weakness. When He calls the base, He is not referring to the wicked.

The weakness God speaks about is our human inability to obey His commandments in our own strength. God calls us to a life of holiness and separation. He tells us we can be free from the bondage of sin. He Word promises freedom from sin's power, as well as forgiveness. God's Word comes to us with some impossible challenges "Resist the devil. Walk in the Spirit. Come out from among them. Do not commit adultery. Love your enemies. Enter into rest. Leave behind all your fears. Put down your lustful desires. Let not sin have dominion over you. As He was in this world so be ye. Overcome self, pride and envy. Sin not!"

Have a great weekend. Peace and Love.

ksazma posted:

The following passage deals with a current activity. It states, "O believers, fasting was prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so you can develop self control". Notice how the passage tells what to do and why? Now your task is to explain why Samson and Judah's having sex on the roadside with a prostitute in the case of Samson and in the case of Judah, he mistook his daughter in law for a prostitute. How do those two passages fit into 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

Dem people used to live in tents, unlike mortar and bricks, dem movable. Roadside is like where the tents were raised, even though roadside din exist then.

Dey were ppl who misbehave. And they have a history of illicit sex, and to the point where mohammad recognised it. After thousand of years, he decreed one man can have several wimem. So he solved the problem of prostitution. Besides, Judah and Samson were muslims, considering it is believed that Adam was also muslim. And those two Johns were ater Adam.

Deliah was not a prostitute, neither was Tamar. Both cases were entrapment.

seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

The following passage deals with a current activity. It states, "O believers, fasting was prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so you can develop self control". Notice how the passage tells what to do and why? Now your task is to explain why Samson and Judah's having sex on the roadside with a prostitute in the case of Samson and in the case of Judah, he mistook his daughter in law for a prostitute. How do those two passages fit into 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

Dem people used to live in tents, unlike mortar and bricks, dem movable. Roadside is like where the tents were raised, even though roadside din exist then.

Dey were ppl who misbehave. And they have a history of illicit sex, and to the point where mohammad recognised it. After thousand of years, he decreed one man can have several wimem. So he solved the problem of prostitution. Besides, Judah and Samson were muslims, considering it is believed that Adam was also muslim. And those two Johns were ater Adam.

Deliah was not a prostitute, neither was Tamar. Both cases were entrapment.

Truthfully, no one even know if Samson or Judah even existed. They could be made up people like so many made up people and stories in the Bible.

But I agree that Adam was a Muslim and so was Jesus.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

Two things. The point I was making is that Luke admitted that he was not writing his account of Jesus because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. He admitted that he did it because he thought he was more capable than those who did before. This also showed that he thought they did so on their own too and not because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so.

My Response:
First, lets address the "Holy Spirit" before we go any further to get an understand of it purpose. In a nutshell Holy spirit is a teacher of rightness one who enable us with understanding of all things, things that we need to know.

Sorry about be so length but the point is to get a clear understand of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would send the Spirit to us to be our Helper, Comforter, and Guide. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16). The Greek word translated here “Counselor” means “one who is called alongside” and has the idea of someone who encourages and exhorts. The Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence in the hearts of believers (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 12:13). Jesus gave the Spirit as a “compensation” for His absence, to perform the functions toward us which He would have done if He had remained personally with us.

The Spirit’s presence within us enables us to understand and interpret God’s Word. Jesus told His disciples that “when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). He reveals to our minds the whole counsel of God as it relates to worship, doctrine, and Christian living. He is the ultimate guide, going before, leading the way, removing obstructions, opening the understanding, and making all things plain and clear. He leads in the way we should go in all spiritual things. Without such a guide, we would be apt to fall into error. A crucial part of the truth He reveals is that Jesus is who He said He is (John 15:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3).

Now lets look at the verse in question.
Luke 1:3
"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,"


Luke is writing what he experience and know about Jesus. His experience like the ones before him such as, Matthew, Mark, and John just to name a few, was lead by the holy spirt which bring all those things into remembrance to write about. Notice the "also" in the verse you seem so fixated about, when there is an "also" we need to look and see what was stated before. Lets examine the verses before Luke 1:3. 

Luke 1:1-2
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

Among Us, disciples of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, Peter, James, etc.)
In the verses above Luke is saying many before him being eyewitnesses have given their written account about the life of Jesus. Hence his statement below.

"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write......"

Here Luke is saying he also will give his account of the things he witness.


ksazma posted:
Secondly, there goes your condescending attitude again suggesting that unlike you, I don't have a job I get paid to do. For your information, I get paid to be a Financial Controller. I don't know how you feel about that job but I do see it as a responsible one.

My Response:
I apologize my comment was not meant to be condescending. I thought you mention somewhere before about being self employed hence my statement. I'm an IT Security Engineer and yes I do understand how responsible our jobs can be.

So basically, all you are saying is that you ASSUME that when Luke stated unequivocally that he was writing of his OWN intuition, he was being inspired to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Using this argument, you would have to accept that Muhammad making statements is also doing so through being inspired by this Holy Spirit. Likewise, you would have to accept that Muhammad's argument that Paul's doctrine is against Jesus' beliefs is also inspired by the Holy Spirit especially the same things that mattered to Jesus also mattered to Muhammad including both of them being totally against taking others as God beside the one true God. Paul and Christians associate partners with God totally going against Jesus' beliefs.

Lastly, my keen eyes did not miss your typing error above. You stated that "Jesus said He would send the Spirit to us to be our Helper, Comforter, and Guide. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16)." Jesus did not say that he will send the Spirit as you erroneously wrote above.

Keith posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

I am glad that you brought it back to it all being inspired by God and you ended with 2 Timothy, 3:16-17. Now my friend, please explain the story about Samson meeting a whore on the road to Gaza and had sex with her. We also have the story of Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law on the roadside. Please explain how 2 Timothy, 3:16-17 applies to these two instances. There are many more but I don't care to add them.

Will address later busy at the moment unlike you I've a job I get paid to do all the best.

The simple explanation I can offer you is despise man's short coming God still find a way to used man to edify others in their short coming and to bring forth his purpose and plan. King David, the man after God's own heart, was a murdering adulterer. Abraham, the father of nations, lived a lie using his wife as a pawn to save his own skin. Peter denied Jesus cursing the One who loved him most. Did you know in Jesus linage the woman Rahab was a prostitute?

The list goes on and on of men and women who loved God, men who were greatly used by God almost driven to the ground by their weaknesses. Yet, God was always there saying, "I called you; I will be with you! I will take away the evil of your heart! I will accomplish my will, regardless!"

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:25.

When I Say Weakness, I Do Not Mean Sensuality. God does not use people weak in righteousness. A man's weakness can lead him into adultery, gambling, drinking and all kinds of indulgences. God is not referring to that kind of weakness. When He calls the base, He is not referring to the wicked.

The weakness God speaks about is our human inability to obey His commandments in our own strength. God calls us to a life of holiness and separation. He tells us we can be free from the bondage of sin. He Word promises freedom from sin's power, as well as forgiveness. God's Word comes to us with some impossible challenges "Resist the devil. Walk in the Spirit. Come out from among them. Do not commit adultery. Love your enemies. Enter into rest. Leave behind all your fears. Put down your lustful desires. Let not sin have dominion over you. As He was in this world so be ye. Overcome self, pride and envy. Sin not!"

Have a great weekend. Peace and Love.

Unfortunately, the Bible did not mention lessons taught or learned from those two passages cited.

ksazma posted:
seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

The following passage deals with a current activity. It states, "O believers, fasting was prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so you can develop self control". Notice how the passage tells what to do and why? Now your task is to explain why Samson and Judah's having sex on the roadside with a prostitute in the case of Samson and in the case of Judah, he mistook his daughter in law for a prostitute. How do those two passages fit into 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

Dem people used to live in tents, unlike mortar and bricks, dem movable. Roadside is like where the tents were raised, even though roadside din exist then.

Dey were ppl who misbehave. And they have a history of illicit sex, and to the point where mohammad recognised it. After thousand of years, he decreed one man can have several wimem. So he solved the problem of prostitution. Besides, Judah and Samson were muslims, considering it is believed that Adam was also muslim. And those two Johns were ater Adam.

Deliah was not a prostitute, neither was Tamar. Both cases were entrapment.

Truthfully, no one even know if Samson or Judah even existed. They could be made up people like so many made up people and stories in the Bible.

But I agree that Adam was a Muslim and so was Jesus.

If Jesus WAS a muslim, then I agree with you. No one knows what became of him as a muslim. 

As the Son of God, you most definitely hanging His Celestial Being for His piety of death and resurrection.

seignet posted:
ksazma posted:
 

Truthfully, no one even know if Samson or Judah even existed. They could be made up people like so many made up people and stories in the Bible.

But I agree that Adam was a Muslim and so was Jesus.

If Jesus WAS a muslim, then I agree with you. No one knows what became of him as a muslim. 

As the Son of God, you most definitely hanging His Celestial Being for His piety of death and resurrection.

Actually, I am not assaulting Jesus in any way. I believe Pointy pointed that out to you not very long ago. What I did is used my unique style to prove how the Bible incorrectly recorded people and their history. I began a long time ago proving to Bro. Keith that Isaac was at no time Abraham's only son. That was an interpolation by the compilers of the Bible. Interpolations in the Bible did not happen once but on many occasions as the Church and Bible publishers seek to fix problems with the Biblical message. Interpolation is described by Biblical scholars as text added to the "original" manuscripts to bring clarity to Bible. They are not in the "original" manuscripts. Take the passage involving Abraham and the sacrificial son. It stated "take your son, your only son, Isaac". If God is wise and Abraham is sane, God does not need to tell Abraham who is his only son as every sane person knows who their children are and which one is first, second, etc. "Your only son, Isaac" is an interpolation to deny Ishmael his right to existence after the birth of Isaac. This is not the only time that the Bible have sought to deny people their right to existence. You can find many cases littered throughout the Bible as writers during competing times sought to emphasize the importance of their times compared to others at other times. This mischief is the primary reason there are so many contradictions throughout the Bible. Writers maliciously trying to change history allowed their blind malice to create the contradictions we see in the Bible today. Here is another one that came up from Bro. Keith's post yesterday. It involves Jesus' statement about the Comforter.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; - John 14:16

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

The words, "which is the Holy Ghost is an interpolation in the passage, John 14:16. Why I say that? Simple. The Holy Ghost did not need to wait until Jesus was gone before he can come as stated in John 16:7 because the Holy Ghost was already here according to multiple passages in the New Testament. The Holy Ghost was already with John, the Baptist among others. It was already with Jesus when he walked the earth. Heck, the New Testament stated that he gave up the Holy Ghost when he was on the cross. The Biblical writers inserted the words, "which is the Holy Ghost" not really realizing that the mischief of their actions will be uncovered. The biggest problem for the Biblical writers is they never foresaw the information age when passages can be quickly and competently scrutinized.

Muslims don't need this to validate Muhammad's existence but if they cared, they can see many corroboration for Muhammad in what Jesus was characterizing as the Comforter.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16: 12-14

Start with the characterization, 'the Spirit of Truth". No one can deny that Muhammad was a very truthful person. Heck, Khatijah who was 40 when he was 25 proposed marriage to him because of his honesty and trustworthiness. Muhammad never spoke of himself. He spoke of others and events affecting other peoples' lives and existence. While there are countless recordings from others of who Muhammad was and how he lived, there are no recordings of Muhammad lamenting about his personal conditions as the one recorded in the New Testament of Jesus complaining of not even having a place to rest his head. When the people of Taif stoned the prophet and he was bleeding, his companions (who stood with him instead of "being afrightened and fled" as in the case of Jesus' disciples when Jesus was about to be crucified) told him to pray to God to curse them. His reply was classic. He stated that he did not come as a curse but as a mercy. On his dying bed, he was crying and someone asked him why he was crying. He did not say that he was crying because he thinks God has forsaken him as the Bible recorded Jesus doing when he was on the cross. His reply was that he was sadly thinking of his ummah (followers). When the woman who used to throw her garbage on him every time he passed by her place did not do it for a few days, he did not say "maybe she is not well, good for the bitch". Instead he went and enquired how she was doing. Here is a man who throughout his life did what was beneficial to others and all of it was in a simple manner free of all the celestial nonsense wrongfully associated to Jesus as you mentioned above. Jesus' role on earth was very limited. He was not a law maker like Moses and Muhammad 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19. Jesus was a law abider, abiding by the laws of Moses. Jesus was not a leader in the community as Moses and Muhammad were. He did not move a multitude of men as Moses and Muhammad did. He did not leave a legacy as Moses and Muhammad did. What Christians follow is Paul's doctrine. Jesus did not really have a doctrine since he was following Moses' doctrine. Muhammad's Qur'an was not his own work. He also claimed that he did not write it. He stated that the Angel Gabriel spoke it in his ears and he then dictated it to his companions who in turn recorded it. ".......for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak..... John 16:13  "......and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

Additionally, Muhammad glorified Jesus in many passages in the Qur'an as stated in John 16:14. The speaks volumes of Jesus in a more positive light than the Bible speaks of him. It corrected Paul's lies about Jesus and removed that burden placed on Jesus by the writers of the New Testament when they chose to follow Paul's mischief. It shows him being respectful to his mother as opposed to the way the new Testament showed him being disrespectful to her. It showed him as a pure decent and honorable person as opposed to the New testament showing him as being bigoted, disrespectful and despicable. If it wasn't for Muhammad, reasonable people would be correct to consider Jesus a myth because of how the New Testament characterize him. Muhammad, through the Qur'an give Jesus a decent, honorable and normal existence and removed all the laughable Biblical characterizations of him.

Lastly, the Qur'an give a clear account of what became of Jesus as a Muslim. The difficulty is with the competing and conflicting accounts given in the Bible. It reduced Jesus to a basically a nincompoop. All I do is play the role of how the Bible characterized Jesus. Pointy thinks he knows where I stand on Jesus long before I joined GNI (although I don't personally know Pointy now or prior to me joining GNI). I am using my unique style to show how ridiculous the Biblical account of Jesus is. Like the account of him entering Jerusalem riding a donkey and an ass at the same time. Two Gun kid rode one horse and had two guns. Nothing ridiculously impossible there. That Biblical passage claimed that Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on two animals at the same time. Imagine that image.

Oh, Jesus is not God or any part of God. One God means one God in Abrahamic belief. This many is a European invention that Paul concocted so I have no fear denying Jesus any divinity. In fact, Jesus would appreciate me for not putting that burden on him. Similar to how he demanded that the man who called him "good" desist from doing so pointing out that he was not good but rather only God was good.

God Has a Purpose for Storms

Psalm 119:71

Perhaps you’ve seen a TV show in which a distracted person is about to step in front of a moving vehicle. Then suddenly another character races onto the scene, tackling him to prevent a catastrophe. Stunned and indignant, the near-victim fumes and swats at his rescuer—that is, until realizing he has just been saved from a far worse outcome. What at first seemed like a bad thing turns out to be very good.

Storms in our life can at times serve a similar purpose. It’s easy to get so caught up in the daily grind or preoccupied with chasing a goal that we miss the good that the Lord has in mind to give us. When we’re this focused on our own desires, we also become more vulnerable to making choices that don’t align with His Word.

But wanting the best for His children, our heavenly Father will go to great lengths to make sure we are positioned for His blessing in our life. That’s when we may suddenly find ourselves in the middle of a storm—where life was once sunny, we are now faced with turmoil or even pain. Disappointment like that can catch us off guard and make us wonder, Why is God letting this happen to me? It just may be that He’s trying to protect us and draw us closer to Him.

Though the Lord sometimes allows storms in the form of problems and hardships, His goal isn’t ever to hurt you. If you’re going through a trial right now, God may be trying to draw your attention back to Him. It is possible He’s disrupting your plans so He can implement His.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

I am glad that you brought it back to it all being inspired by God and you ended with 2 Timothy, 3:16-17. Now my friend, please explain the story about Samson meeting a whore on the road to Gaza and had sex with her. We also have the story of Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law on the roadside. Please explain how 2 Timothy, 3:16-17 applies to these two instances. There are many more but I don't care to add them.

Will address later busy at the moment unlike you I've a job I get paid to do all the best.

The simple explanation I can offer you is despise man's short coming God still find a way to used man to edify others in their short coming and to bring forth his purpose and plan. King David, the man after God's own heart, was a murdering adulterer. Abraham, the father of nations, lived a lie using his wife as a pawn to save his own skin. Peter denied Jesus cursing the One who loved him most. Did you know in Jesus linage the woman Rahab was a prostitute?

The list goes on and on of men and women who loved God, men who were greatly used by God almost driven to the ground by their weaknesses. Yet, God was always there saying, "I called you; I will be with you! I will take away the evil of your heart! I will accomplish my will, regardless!"

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:25.

When I Say Weakness, I Do Not Mean Sensuality. God does not use people weak in righteousness. A man's weakness can lead him into adultery, gambling, drinking and all kinds of indulgences. God is not referring to that kind of weakness. When He calls the base, He is not referring to the wicked.

The weakness God speaks about is our human inability to obey His commandments in our own strength. God calls us to a life of holiness and separation. He tells us we can be free from the bondage of sin. He Word promises freedom from sin's power, as well as forgiveness. God's Word comes to us with some impossible challenges "Resist the devil. Walk in the Spirit. Come out from among them. Do not commit adultery. Love your enemies. Enter into rest. Leave behind all your fears. Put down your lustful desires. Let not sin have dominion over you. As He was in this world so be ye. Overcome self, pride and envy. Sin not!"

Have a great weekend. Peace and Love.

Unfortunately, the Bible did not mention lessons taught or learned from those two passages cited.

"I called you; I will be with you! I will take away the evil of your heart! I will accomplish my will, regardless!" is not a scripture reference. Anything that's in the scripture I place the Chapter and verse next too. I was only pointing out through those same folks mention above God will was still accomplish despised man short coming.

ksazma posted:
seignet posted:
ksazma posted:
 

Truthfully, no one even know if Samson or Judah even existed. They could be made up people like so many made up people and stories in the Bible.

But I agree that Adam was a Muslim and so was Jesus.

If Jesus WAS a muslim, then I agree with you. No one knows what became of him as a muslim. 

As the Son of God, you most definitely hanging His Celestial Being for His piety of death and resurrection.

He was not a law maker like Moses and Muhammad 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19. Jesus was a law abider, abiding by the laws of Moses. Jesus was not a leader in the community as Moses and Muhammad were. He did not move a multitude of men as Moses and Muhammad did. He did not leave a legacy as Moses and Muhammad did. What Christians follow is Paul's doctrine. Jesus did not really have a doctrine since he was following Moses' doctrine.

I took the liberty of cutting out the other things I taught was irrelevant. Just to clarify are you saying that Muhammad is like Moses and the verse you quoted above is referencing Muhammad?

By the way, we follow what's written in the bible regardless of who doctrine it is. God allow it to be there and we are obligated to following what He has instructed.

I couldn't say it any better so I took the liberty of quoting CRI.

Islam and Christianity are the two largest and most missionary-minded religions in the world. Their beliefs are very similar in many areas. They are both monotheistic, were founded by a specific individual in a definite, historically verifiable setting, are universal, and believe in the existence of angels, heaven and hell, a future resurrection, and that God has made Himself known to man via a revelation.

However, there also are many obvious differences between them, particularly in relation to the person of Jesus Christ, the way of salvation, and each faith’s scripture or scriptures. These differences encompass the very foundational tenets of each religion, and therefore, while Islam and Christianity can both be false, they both cannot be true.

Our task is to examine each religion’s apologetic, or defense of their faith, to see if the claims of either religion are verifiable. Particular attention will be paid to the founder and the scripture or scriptures of each faith. The reason for this should be self-evident: it is very easy for someone to make claims regarding himself, proving them is an entirely different matter.

ISLAMIC APOLOGETICS

Islam, like Christianity, believes that a person’s faith must be reasonable as well as subjective, that we must worship God with our minds as well as our hearts. In sharing this common ground with Muslims let us then examine why they believe what they believe.

The Miracle of the Qur’anThe Islamic Claim

We must start our study of Islamic apologetics by examining their highest source of authority, the Qur’an. For Muslims, this is the pure word of God with no admixture of human thought or content Indeed, many Muslims have such an intense jealousy for the Qur’an that they keenly resent its being possessed by a non-Muslim.

The word “Qur’an” comes from “an Arabic word meaning ‘reading’ or ‘that which is to be read.’”1 Muslims affirm that the Qur’an was given to Muhammad in the Arabic language, piece by piece, over a span of 23 years until his death (Qur’an 43:3; 44:58; 17:106). Muslim apologetics for the Qur’an cover four main areas: its preservation, eloquence, alleged prophecies, and compatibility with modern science.

1. Preservation of the Qur’an

Concerning the present authenticity of the Qur’an, Maulvi Muhammad Ali makes the following grandiose statement:

As regards the authenticity of the Holy Qur’an, I need not detain the reader very long. From one end of the world to the other, from China in the Far East to Morocco and Algeria in the Far West, from the scattered islands of the Pacific Ocean to the great desert of Africa, the Qur’an is one, and no copy differing in even a diacritical point is met with in the possession of one among the four hundred millions of Muslims.2 There are, and always have been, contending sects, but the same Qur’an is in the possession of one and all…A manuscript with the slightest variation in the text is unknown.3

Thus Muslims not only believe that the Qur’an is God’s word in toto, they also are confident that no error, alteration, or variation has touched it since its inception. This, then, is one of their “proofs” that the Qur’an is a “miracle” from God.

2. Eloquence of the Qur’an

A second claim made to prove the supernatural origin of the Qur’an, found in surah (chapter) 17:88, is that its beauty and eloquence is self-sufficient proof that the author is God:

Say: “If the whole Of mankind and Jinns Were to gather together To produce the like Of this Qur’an, they Could not produce The like thereof, even if They backed up each other With help and support.”

In a footnote within his translation of the Qur’an, Yusuf Ali states, “No human composition could contain the beauty, power, and spiritual insight of the Qur’an.”4

However, Muslims do not believe that the Qur’an is a miracle solely because of its eloquence and beauty, but also because in surah 7:157 Muhammad is referred to as “The unlettered Prophet.” Believing that he was illiterate, they ask how such a man could produce the Qur’an.

A final claim concerning the Qur’an’s literary achievement is that it is so consistent throughout that no human could have devised it Suzanne Haneef asks “how the whole Qur’an could be so utterly consistent” if it did not originate from God.5

3. Prophecies In the Qur’an

The Qur’an speaks prophetically very little, if indeed it does prophesy at all. Hence, few Muslim apologists use fulfilled prophecy as a proof for their faith. However, there is a series of verses in the Qur’an which promise that the Muslims will be victorious, both at home and abroad.6 Maulana Muhammad Ali discusses these prophecies at length in his work The Religion of Islam:

…we find prophecy after prophecy announced in the surest and most certain terms to the effect that the great forces of opposition should be brought to naught…that Islam should spread to the farthest corners of the earth and that it should ultimately he triumphant over all religions of the world.7

4. Science and the Qur’an

Finally, there is one recent work, written by a French surgeon named Maurice Bucaille, that attempts to vindicate the divine origin of the Qur’an by showing its supposedly remarkable affinity with modem science. After citing a number of examples, Dr. Bucaille concludes that

…it is inconceivable for a human being living in the seventh century A.D. to have made statements in the Qur’an on a great variety of subjects that do not belong to his period and for them to be in keeping with what was to be known only centuries later. For me, there can be no human explanation to the Qur an.8

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

1. Preservation of the Qur’an?

Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, in The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, tells us that at the time of Muhammad’s death the surahs (or chapters) of the Qur’an had not yet been collated. This was accomplished during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr.9

The second Caliph, Omar, “subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) that he preserved and gave on his death to his daughter Hafsa, the Prophet’s widow.”10 Finally, under the Caliphate of Uthman all copies of the Qur’an were ordered to be brought in and any that deviated from Uthman’s text were burned.

We have no quarrel with the Islamic position that since the Recension of Uthman the Qur’an has remained intact. However, because of the destruction of all deviant copies no one can know with any certainty if the present Qur’an is exactly the same as what Muhammad gave them.

Islam teaches that the only reason Uthman had all the other collections of the Qur’an burned except his was that there were slight dialectical variations in the different texts. However, there is some evidence which tends to refute this.

First of all, it is very significant that the Qurra, the Muslims who had memorized the entire Qur’an, were vehemently opposed to the Recension. And second, the Shi’ites, who are the second-largest Islamic sect in the world, claim that the Caliph Uthman intentionally eliminated many passages from the Qur’an which related to Ali and the succession of leadership which was to occur after Muhammad’s death.

L. Bevan Jones, in his work The People Of the Mosque, succinctly answers the Muslim argument for the alleged miraculous preservation of the Qur’an: “But while it may be true that no other work has remained for twelve centuries with so pure a text, it is probably equally true that no other has suffered so drastic a purging.”11

2. Eloquence of the Qur’an?

Concerning the Qur’an’s beauty, style, and eloquence, any unbiased reader would have to admit that this is certainly true of much of the Qur’an. However, eloquence itself is hardly a logical test for inspiration. If this were the criteria used to judge a work, then we would have to say that the authors of many of the great works of antiquity were inspired by God. Homer would have to have been a prophet for producing the magnificent Iliad and the Odyssey. In the English language Shakespeare is without a peer as a dramatist, but it would be ludicrous to say that because of this his tragedies were of divine origin. Likewise for the eloquence of the Qur’an.

But what about the consistency of the Qur’an — can it be used to show that this Muslim scripture was inspired? To begin with, it can be shown that the Qur’an is not totally consistent, but rather has some major contradictions in it.12 Even if we granted the thesis that the Qur’an was totally consistent this still would not prove anything. In an essay entitled “How Muslims Do Apologetics,” Dr. John Warwick Montgomery demonstrates this for us:

This apologetic is likewise of little consequence, for the self-consistency of a writing does not prove that it is a divine revelation. Euclid’s Geometry, for example, is not self-contradictory at any point, but no one claims that this work is therefore divinely inspired in some unique sense.13

And finally, what about Muhammad’s alleged illiteracy? First of all, there is a good deal of evidence against it. But even if we granted the fact that Muhammad could not read or write this still would not make the Qur’an miraculous. Why? Because all Muslims know that he had at least several amanuenses or scribes: and therefore, he could easily have composed the Qur’an in this fashion. This would not be unique, as there are precedents for this. One that most people will be familiar with concerns Homer. He was blind and thus, in all likelihood, could not write. Yet he was the author of the Iliad and the Odyssey, the two greatest epics of the ancient world. In like fashion the question of whether or not Muhammad was illiterate really has no hearing on the case in question.

3. Prophecies in the Qur’an?

Can we say that Islam’s vast expansion, predicted by Muhammad, is a fulfillment of prophecy? If we think this through for just a moment, I believe we can easily answer no.

To begin with, a leader promising his troops or followers a victory is not the least bit unique. Every commander or general does this in order to inspire his army and build up their morale. If they are then victorious, he is vindicated; if they lose then we never hear of his promises because they, along with his movement, are forgotten.

Also, the Muslim had several important incentives to consider while fighting to further the cause of Islam. If he died, he was promised to be allowed into paradise. If he lived and they were victorious in battle, the Muslim soldiers would divide up four-fifths of all the booty.

There is another reason why Islam initially expanded so rapidly. If we look at some of the Qur’anic injunctions about what the non-believers could expect at the hands of the Muslims, it is easy to understand why so many “submitted,” as found in surah 5:36:14

The punishment of those Who wage war against God And his Apostle, and strive With might and main For mischief through the land Is: execution, or crucifixion,Or the cutting off of hands And feet from opposite sides,Or exile from the land.

The polytheists had two choices, submit or die. The Christians and the Jews had a third alternative, paying heavy tribute (Qur’an 9:5, 29).

A final point to be considered is that if the fast and far reaching growth of a movement indicated divine favor, then what about such conquerors as Genghis Khan? He consolidated the Mongol tribes and in a time span shorter than early Islam’s conquered a much larger geographic area. Was his military success evidence that he was led of God? And what of Islam’s own growth which was stopped in the West by Charles Martel A.D. 732) and in the East by Leo III (A.D. 740)? Does this mean that they lost favor with Allah? What of the later history of many Islamic countries who suffered the indignity of becoming colonies of the then world powers? No, we can find nothing mysterious or supernatural about Islam’s amazing early growth or subsequent fall.

4. Science and the Qur’an?

A very recent Islamic polemic. The Bible, the Qur’an and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille, attempts to demonstrate that the Qur’an must have been divinely inspired because it allegedly states many things that were unknown in the seventh century and have subsequently become known only in our twentieth century.

In answering Dr. Bucaille it must first be pointed out that the bulk of the book does not deal with the Qur’an and science. Rather, most of it is an attempt (using the techniques of higher criticism) to disgrace the Bible. The portions of his book which do attempt to show that the Qur’an is in amazing agreement with twentieth-century scientific knowledge are very vague.

However, what if we were to grant his thesis that the statements in the Qur’an are in total agreement with modern science? Dr. Bucaille states that if this were true, then “it is unthinkable that a man of Muhammad’s time could have been the author of them.”15 I agree with his conclusion, assuming his thesis is true. If the Qur’an has detailed scientific statements which we have only recently discovered to be true, and yet it was written in the seventh century A.D., then it could not have been merely the product of Muhammad. But this does not identify the source of the information, it only shows that no human being could have written it without superhuman help.

If indeed the Qur’an had a supernatural origin, then we are still left with the task of finding out who its source was. Dr. Bucaille assumes that it must be God, but why? If we pause and think for just a moment, we realize that there are other supernatural beings besides God. One of these beings is referred to as Satan in the Bible, as well as in the Qur’an. The Bible tells us that he has been on the earth as long as man has, that he has powers and intelligence far superior to ours, and that he is “the father of lies” (John 8:44). To whisper some scientific facts into someone’s ear would be no great feat for him. As a matter of fact the Bible says that he does appear to men from time to time: “For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:14). It is interesting that this is exactly the initial fear that Muhammad had the first time he heard the voice speak to him.16

5. Sources of the Qur’an

In concluding this section on the Qur’an the reader may be interested to know that many of the stories or accounts found within the Qur’an are traceable to very similiar (sometimes almost identical) stories found in pre-Islamic writings. I would direct the reader to Clair-Tisdall’s classic The Sources of Islam, Rev. W. Goldsack’s The Origins of the Qur’an, and Samuel M. Zwerner’s Islam: A Challenge to Faith.

Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible?

Virtually every religion that began after Christianity attempts to show that it is compatible with the Bible. They also endeavor, usually quite laboriously, to show that their founder or faith is referred to in the Bible.17 Thus it comes as no surprise to find that Muslims also claim that their founder was prophesied in both the Old and New Testaments.

Our question still needs to be answered: Although Islam is not unique in claiming to be verified by the Bible, might not its claims be nonetheless true? There are some minor, less detailed verses which Muslims claim are “prophecies” related to Muhammad. However, the verses which most Muslims cite as the most explicative are Deuteronomy 18:15-18 and John 14:16; 15:26; and 16:7.

1. Deuteronomy 18:15-18

The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear.

According to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, “Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.”

And the Lord said to me: “What they have spoken is good.

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.”

This is universally held by Muslims as a prophesy pertaining to Muhammad.18 There are a number of reasons why they believe it cannot be referring Jesus.

First, the Promised Prophet was to be a Lawgiving Prophet…. Jesus laid no claim to giving a new law…. Secondly, the Promised Prophet was to be raised not from among Israel but from among their brethren and Jesus was an Israelite…. Thirdly, the prophecy was: “I will put my words in his mouth.” But the gospels do not consist of words which God put in Jesus’ mouth. They only tell us the story of Jesus and what he said in some of his public addresses and what his disciples said or did on different occasions. Fourthly, the Promised One was to be a Prophet, while the Christian view is that Jesus was not a Prophet, but the son of God.19

The Muslim will then point out the many ways in which Muhammad and Moses were alike. Each appeared among idolaters. They were both lawgivers who were initially rejected by their people and had to flee into exile, only to return later to lead their nations. They both married and had children, and were military leaders as well as spiritual leaders. After both of their deaths their successors conquered Palestine.

The Muslim conclusion is that this prophecy was fulfilled only by Muhammad: “If these words do not apply to Muhammad, they still remain unfulfilled.”20

Before we continue any farther, let us first analyze these points. The first objection raised against this prophecy having been fulfilled in Jesus was that Jesus was not a lawgiver. Muslims who claim this only show their own lack of understanding of the New Testament, as shown in John 13:34 and Galatians 6:2:

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love another.

Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ

The next objection to this prophecy having been fulfilled in Jesus was that “brethren” must refer to the Ishmaelites, not to the Israelites themselves. This argument can easily be refuted by simply looking at how the term “brethren” is used in the Bible. One cogent example is found in Deuteronomy 17:15. Moses instructs the Israelites:

“You shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.”

Now, did Israel ever appoint a foreigner as king over them? More specifically, was an Ishmaelite ever appointed king over Israel? Of course not. To choose a king “from among your brethren” refers to choosing someone from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Likewise, the prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18 was to be an Israelite.

Another objection to Deuteronomy 18:15-18 being fulfilled in Jesus is that the Gospels allegedly do not consist of words which God gave Jesus, vitally important in light of verse 18. However, to say that Jesus did not speak what God the Father gave Him again betrays an abysmal ignorance of the New Testament: “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)21

The final objection raised against Jesus’ fulfilling these verses is that Christians supposedly only view Jesus as the Son of God, not as a prophet. Once again we see that the Muslim too often has little familiarity with the New Testament. Jesus Himself, prophesying His impending death, said that He must continue His journey to Jerusalem “for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33).22

The Muslim will point out that I still have not explained the many similarities between Moses and Muhammad. It is true that they have many correspondences, but there are also many differences. For example, if Muhammad was illiterate as virtually all Muslims assert, then he was not like Moses who “was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians” (Acts 7:22). Muhammad is said to have received his revelations from the angel Gabriel, while Moses received the Law directly from God. Muhammad performed no signs or miracles to verify his calling, yet Moses performed many signs. Also, Muhammad was Arabic, while Moses was of Jewish origin.

If one were to peruse the Gospels, he would see that although Jesus was unlike Moses in some ways, in other ways He was very much like him. They were both Jewish, which is very important in light of what we have learned about the term “your brethren.” They both left Egypt to minister to their people (Heb. 11:27; Matt 2:15). Both also forsook great riches in order to better identify with their people (Heb. 11:24-26; John 6:15; 2 Cor. 8:9).

So we see that both Jesus and Muhammad had similarities with Moses. In what special way then was this coming prophet to be “like unto Moses”? The answer is found in Deuteronomy 34:8-10 where two distinguishing characteristics of Moses are listed:

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

In all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land,

And by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.

This is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 18:15-18. Notice that two specific things are mentioned about Moses here in referring back to the earlier prophecy. The first is that the Lord knew Moses “face to face. “23 Muhammad never had this type of relationship with God; indeed, in Islam God is so transcendent that except for the unique case of Moses He never spoke directly with men.

Jesus, “the Word made flesh” (John 1:14), is the only one who ever had a relationship with God like Moses had. In fact, Jesus’ relationship far surpasses that of Moses: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

The second characteristic feature of Moses, that he came with many “signs” and “wonders,” hardly needs to be expounded on. The many miracles that both Moses and Jesus worked are well known. The Qur’an itself testifies that Muhammad worked no miracles.24

And finally, Jesus Himself tells us who the prophet is that Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is prophesying: “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me” (John 5:46).25

2. John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7

Muslims claim that the verses speaking of the coming “Comforter” (“Paracletos” in the original Greek) are actually references to the coming of Muhammad. The reason for this is that in the Qur’an Jesus is made to say that after Himself an apostle would be sent, “Whose name shall be Ahmad” (Qur’an 61:6). The following is Yusuf Ali’s commentary on this verse:

“Ahmad,” or “Muhammad,” the Praised One, is almost a translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the present Gospel of John, xiv. 16, xv. 26, and xvi. 7, the word “Comforter” in the English version is for the Greek word “Paracletos,” which means “Advocate,” “one called to the help of another, a kind friend” rather than “Comforter.” Our doctors contend that Paracletos is a corrupt reading for Periclytos, and that in their [sic] original saying of Jesus there was a prophecy of our holy Prophet Ahmad by name.26

Thus Muslims believe that all of our Bibles have been corrupted and that the apostle John really used the word “Periclytos” in these verses, not the word “Paracletos.”

In examining the Muslim claim that the text has been corrupted the textual critic would quite rightly look to the actual textual evidence. There are over 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament which date from before A.D. 350. Not once in any of the manuscripts which contain these passages do we find the word “Periclytos” used. The word that we find used every time is “Paracletos.” Thus, there is absolutely no textual evidence which would back up their contention that the text was corrupted.

The Muslim position is even more lamentable when we carefully read these verses to see what Jesus was saying. There is a great deal which could be said about each verse; however, we will limit our review to the obvious discrepancies between the Islamic position and what is actually being said: “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter,27 that He may abide with you forever” (John 14:16). First of all, Jesus said that the Father “will give you another Comforter.” Who was Jesus addressing in these verses? The Arabs, or more specifically, the Ishmaelites? Of course not. He is speaking to Jewish believers. Hence the “Comforter” would be sent initially to them. This cannot be referring to Muhammad.

Second, this verse states that the “Paracletos,” the “Comforter,” would “abide with you forever.” How can this apply to Muhammad? The Muslim prophet has been dead and buried for over 1,300 years.

“Even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you” (John 14:17). Here “the Spirit of Truth” is used as another title or synonym for the “Paraclete.” We see from this verse that the “Paraclete” would be “in you.” Again, it is impossible to reconcile this statement with the Islamic position.

John 14:26 completely devastates the Muslim hypothesis that Muhammad was actually the one being prophesied in the verses dealing with the coming “Comforter” (or “Paraclete”): “But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” Jesus said that the “Comforter” is “the Holy Spirit.” This is the reason why all of the Muslim apologists stay away from this verse, only quoting the verses they like. Jesus commanded His disciples — in Acts 1:4-5 — not to “depart from Jerusalem,” for they would “be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Do these verses really apply to Muhammad appearing 600 years later in Mecca? Only a person already biased and completely credulous could believe this. The fulfillment of Jesus’ words occurred 10 days later on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), not six centuries later, hundreds of miles from Jerusalem.

Prof. ‘Abdu ‘L-Ahad Dauud, in Muhammad in the Bible, states that this alleged prophecy “is one of the strongest proofs that Muhammad was truly a Prophet and that the Qur’an is really a divine revelation”28 (emphasis added). If these verses constitute one of their “strongest proofs,” then I will not belabor the reader with “lesser proofs.” I believe that Blaise Pascal succinctly summarized the situation: “Any man can do what [Muhammad] has done; for he performed no miracles, he was not foretold. No man can do what Christ has done.”29

In the remaining space it will be impossible to give more than an overview of the evidences for the Christian faith.30 The two areas we will examine are the evidences for the reliability of the Bible and the person of Jesus Christ.

The Reliability of the Bible

For Muslims the Bible is virtually worthless as far as being an authentic revelation from God. They believe it has been totally corrupted and is therefore not trustworthy. However, if we examine the biblical documents, using the same thorough standards any historiographer would use, we discover that its reliability is unimpeachable.

The New Testament documents, for example, have more manuscript authority than any 10 works of antiquity put together. As mentioned earlier, we have over 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament dating from before A.D. 350. In comparison, the number two book in all of ancient history for manuscript authority is the Iliad with 643 manuscripts.

Dr. John Warwick Montgomery, dean of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law and a noted theologian, comments on this: “To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.”31

When we turn to the text of the New Testament itself we see that the writers of the New Testament books claimed that they were eyewitnesses, or close associates of eyewitnesses, of the events they narrated.32 We also have excellent external evidence confirming this. Papias, a disciple of the apostle John, confirms the fact that Mark did indeed write the Gospel which is ascribed to him, obtaining his information from the apostle Peter.33 Polycarp, another disciple of the apostle John, taught his own disciple Irenaeus that the men to whom the four Gospels are ascribed were in truth their real authors.34

In addition to these evidences we can also add the findings of modern archaeology. Time after time archaeology has vindicated biblical accounts which had previously been ridiculed as being grossly inaccurate.35 Concerning this, Nelson Glueck, a world-famous Jewish archaeologist, went so far as to say that “it may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference.”36

In any responsible examination of the biblical documents the evidence for their reliability comes out positive. Even well-known secular historians accept the biblical accounts as being historically reliable. A.N. Sherwin-White, a non-Christian, accepts without question the essential reliability of the Gospels and the Book of Acts:

For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming…any attempt to reject its historicity in matters of detail must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted.37

It is very interesting to note that Yusuf Ali, in his widely used English translation of the Qur’an, twice cites Sir Frederick Kenyon as a renowned authority.38 Kenyon, formerly the principal curator of the British Museum, was one the world’s greatest authorities on textual criticism of ancient works. Concerning the textual reliability of the Bible, he concluded that “the Christian can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true Word of God.”39

The Death and Resurrection of Christ

Muslims, denying that Jesus died on the cross, hold that no resurrection occurred. They do this not on the basis of the historical evidence but because the Qur’an simply denies that Jesus was crucified.’ However, once again their beliefs fly in the face of all the evidence.

The following references are a listing of just some of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the sufferings of the Messiah and of their fulfillment in Jesus. We are told the Messiah would come in humility (Zech. 9:9; Matt. 21:6-9), would be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12; Matt. 26:15), would suffer tremendously (lsa. 50:6; Matt. 26:67), would be pierced and scourged (Isa. 53:5; Matt. 27:26: John 19:34), would not speak in His own defense (Isa. 53:7; Matt. 27:12-14), would be slain (Isa. 53:8; Luke 23:46), would die among thieves and intercede for the transgressors (Isa. 53:12; Matt. 27:38; Luke 23:34), would be mocked (Ps. 22:7-8; Matt. 27:31, 39-40), would have his hands and feet pierced (Ps. 22:16; John 20:25-28), would have lots cast for his garments (Ps. 22:18; John 19:23-24), and would not have his bones broken (Ps. 34:20; John 19:33).

In the New Testament Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58). Those closest to Him made the same claim for Him (1 John 5:20; 2 Pet. 1:1). Jesus said that the ultimate proof validating His claims would be His resurrection from the dead (Matt 16:21; 17:9; John 2: 18-21).

If these events did not occur (Jesus’ death and resurrection), one is faced with tremendously difficult questions. What accounts for the change in Peter, from being a coward who denied even knowing Jesus, into being a martyr? What accounts for the change of Saul, the greatest persecutor of the early church, into the apostle Paul, the greatest missionary of the early church (who also suffered martyrdom)? What accounted for the birth of the Christian church itself? Christianity was not spread by force. The first Christians had no worldly incentives to preach Jesus’ death and resurrection. Conversely, all they could expect were revilements, persecution, and martyrdom. The only satisfactory answer that can be given to these questions is that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, just as He promised.

Near the end of the eighteenth century La Revelliere-Lepeaux, a determined non-Christian, was attempting to replace Christianity with Theophilanthropy (a form of deism) as the religion of France. When he told Talleyrand his plans, “the cynical politician replied, ‘All you have to do is get yourself hanged, and revive the third day.’”41

Indeed, Talleyrand very perceptively showed the main difference between Christianity and every other religion of the world. Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead, thus verifying His claims to deity. Muhammad and all of the other founders of the various religions are still in the grave. Only Jesus has the power of life over death, as He said in John 11:25-26:

I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if He dies, and everyone who lives and believes In Me shall never die.

There were several Qurans that existed. A documentary was aired a few years ago on the subject. After the death of Mohammad, words compiled by others were issued as qurans. Somewhat like the Gospels. 

At the time Islam planned the invasion of Christendom, the Caliphate was quite aware of the different sects of christians and how they interpreted the the wriiten words of the Apostles. There was no Bible at that time.

Islam, as an organized faith, perhaps the first, ever. And long before the Catholic Church. Heretics were banished, put to death and have their works(qurans) burnt. Thus remaining supposedly, Mohammad's version.

The Caliphate was not going have none of the supposedly confusion as the Christians were having.  Other thoughts and thinking were suppressed into the idea that the writings from Mohammad was from God himself.

I doan think God is a confused Being. He had already given Enoch, the seventh from Adam, His commands, explanations, statutes and His plans for the atonement of mankind sins in the personage of the Elect One. Enoch saw the fire that inscribed the words, today it may be interpreted as laser technology. Methuselah was handed thebooks by his father and given specific instructions to be sure it was handed down all the way to Noah.

Islam can boast of the millions who read the authentic Arabic words. How many understand the langauge? Are they just mouthing the beauty of the chants? They cannot question anything. They are programmed like the children in the madrasahs. They read only the Quran. It is the same as just listen, you do not  have to read.

Just accept what is given.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church was like that too. Only Latin was the language of the Holy Book. To have the Book in another language was unheard of and the those who listened only listened. The masses followed the motions, listened to the chants, can't read only repeated. Fearing the scorch of fire at the stake, many cardinals just followed the church doctrines.

For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church behaved as if they spoke for God.

Then a Catholic Priest in England, Wycliffe would translate the Latin into Old English for the English People. Today, his efforts has paid off in the thousands of languages the Bible has been printed into. Perhaps, there are some wrong interpretation, but the essence of God doan need volumes of incantations. God is always present in the hearts of mankind, He doan need to be studied. 

Ofcourse the Catholic Church din let Wycliffee get away with it. Labelled  a

heretic they hounded him. Persecution of his parishers for daring to want the Holy Book for their edification. 

The Catholic Church prevailed.

After another 100 years Hurt was burnt at the stake for demanding parishers be preached to in their language.

The Catholic Prevailed again.

Another 100 years came Martin Luther, he also was a Catholic Priest. 

Just like the prophets before Christ, Christ came as fulfillment of scriptures.

The same way, after thousands of years, Gods words to Enoch is given in thousand of langauges. No conversion is necessary, anyone can commune with God. He did say, the human body is a temple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
seignet posted:
ksazma posted:
 

Truthfully, no one even know if Samson or Judah even existed. They could be made up people like so many made up people and stories in the Bible.

But I agree that Adam was a Muslim and so was Jesus.

If Jesus WAS a muslim, then I agree with you. No one knows what became of him as a muslim. 

As the Son of God, you most definitely hanging His Celestial Being for His piety of death and resurrection.

He was not a law maker like Moses and Muhammad 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19. Jesus was a law abider, abiding by the laws of Moses. Jesus was not a leader in the community as Moses and Muhammad were. He did not move a multitude of men as Moses and Muhammad did. He did not leave a legacy as Moses and Muhammad did. What Christians follow is Paul's doctrine. Jesus did not really have a doctrine since he was following Moses' doctrine.

I took the liberty of cutting out the other things I taught was irrelevant. Just to clarify are you saying that Muhammad is like Moses and the verse you quoted above is referencing Muhammad?

By the way, we follow what's written in the bible regardless of who doctrine it is. God allow it to be there and we are obligated to following what He has instructed.

What I said is that Muhammad does not need the help of the Bible to validate his existence. He is not regarded as a myth the way Jesus is. However, if you were to be liberal, Muhammad had many of the same roles and responsibilities as Moses.

Secondly, While you may be following what is written in the Bible, you are not following what Moses or Jesus followed. Both Moses and Jesus knew nothing about a triune God. Both of them follow one God and if you take Jesus at his word, he told the man asking him about everlasting life to pay particular heed to the 1st commandment. When you worship Jesus and the Holy Ghost as co-equal God to God, you are going against what Jesus stood for.

Lastly, you stated that God has allowed what is in the Bible to be there so you are obligated to follow them. Similarly, God has allowed the Qur'an to be in existence to you must feel equally obligated to follow the Qur'an. Interesting, the God described in the Qur'an is the one that Jesus would recognize and the one he worshipped.

Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

1. Preservation of the Qur’an?

Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, in The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, tells us that at the time of Muhammad’s death the surahs (or chapters) of the Qur’an had not yet been collated. This was accomplished during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr.9

The second Caliph, Omar, “subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) that he preserved and gave on his death to his daughter Hafsa, the Prophet’s widow.”10 Finally, under the Caliphate of Uthman all copies of the Qur’an were ordered to be brought in and any that deviated from Uthman’s text were burned.

We have no quarrel with the Islamic position that since the Recension of Uthman the Qur’an has remained intact. However, because of the destruction of all deviant copies no one can know with any certainty if the present Qur’an is exactly the same as what Muhammad gave them.

Islam teaches that the only reason Uthman had all the other collections of the Qur’an burned except his was that there were slight dialectical variations in the different texts. However, there is some evidence which tends to refute this.

First of all, it is very significant that the Qurra, the Muslims who had memorized the entire Qur’an, were vehemently opposed to the Recension. And second, the Shi’ites, who are the second-largest Islamic sect in the world, claim that the Caliph Uthman intentionally eliminated many passages from the Qur’an which related to Ali and the succession of leadership which was to occur after Muhammad’s death.

L. Bevan Jones, in his work The People Of the Mosque, succinctly answers the Muslim argument for the alleged miraculous preservation of the Qur’an: “But while it may be true that no other work has remained for twelve centuries with so pure a text, it is probably equally true that no other has suffered so drastic a purging.”11

 

Bro Keith, it would really be good if you can present your own argument instead of posting a who piece which a discussion board will never be able to justify. However, I will try to cut your (actually it is from Christian Research Institute) presentation up so that I can respond to it separately. Anyone who knows anything about the origins of the Qur'an will acknowledge that it was an oral revelation to Muhammad over a span of 23 years. As he received them, he would dictate them to his companions some of them entrusted with writing it down. Since it was an oral revelation, emphasis was placed on memorizing it even more than compiling it into a book. Nonetheless, some people used to record passages more applicable to them rather than following a uniform approach to compiling a book. However, the select few who were charged with the proper preservation of the Qur'an put together the one that Umar gave to his daughter, Hafzah. Actually that was only one of three copies that were compiled under the supervision of Umar who was the second leader after the Prophet. Those three copies still exist today. During the Caliphate of Uthman, people were compiling their own records that were not done as meticulously as those three copies. Under his direction, those were all destroyed so as not to create the kind of confusion that exist today with the Bible. Umar was very wise to do so. I don't know why any Christian would make a deal out of this in light of the role of the Council of Nicea in the canonization of the Bible.

Secondly, there was no Shiite at the time of any of the Caliph. Not even when Ali (who the Shiite revere) was Caliph was there any Shiite. So CRI making that argument is baseless.

Lastly, the Qur'an has no direction for any succession. If the Shiite are making this claim which I suspect they are not and it is actually CRI seeking to present a controversy, Uthman would have never been able to remove all references to any succession. The Bible is obsessed with lineage. The Qur'an is more focused on being a guide to mankind.

And yes, L. Bevan Jones only halfway correct. The Qur'an in circulation today is the same one compiled by Umar, not Uthman. And Uthman never burned any Qur'an. He destroyed those documents which while still being correct passages of the established Qur'an, they were not compiled in a uniform manner and had the potential of missing bits and pieces.

seignet posted:

There were several Qurans that existed. A documentary was aired a few years ago on the subject. After the death of Mohammad, words compiled by others were issued as qurans. Somewhat like the Gospels. 

At the time Islam planned the invasion of Christendom, the Caliphate was quite aware of the different sects of christians and how they interpreted the the wriiten words of the Apostles. There was no Bible at that time.

Islam, as an organized faith, perhaps the first, ever. And long before the Catholic Church. Heretics were banished, put to death and have their works(qurans) burnt. Thus remaining supposedly, Mohammad's version.

The Caliphate was not going have none of the supposedly confusion as the Christians were having.  Other thoughts and thinking were suppressed into the idea that the writings from Mohammad was from God himself.

I doan think God is a confused Being. He had already given Enoch, the seventh from Adam, His commands, explanations, statutes and His plans for the atonement of mankind sins in the personage of the Elect One. Enoch saw the fire that inscribed the words, today it may be interpreted as laser technology. Methuselah was handed thebooks by his father and given specific instructions to be sure it was handed down all the way to Noah.

Islam can boast of the millions who read the authentic Arabic words. How many understand the langauge? Are they just mouthing the beauty of the chants? They cannot question anything. They are programmed like the children in the madrasahs. They read only the Quran. It is the same as just listen, you do not  have to read.

Just accept what is given.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church was like that too. Only Latin was the language of the Holy Book. To have the Book in another language was unheard of and the those who listened only listened. The masses followed the motions, listened to the chants, can't read only repeated. Fearing the scorch of fire at the stake, many cardinals just followed the church doctrines.

For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church behaved as if they spoke for God.

Then a Catholic Priest in England, Wycliffe would translate the Latin into Old English for the English People. Today, his efforts has paid off in the thousands of languages the Bible has been printed into. Perhaps, there are some wrong interpretation, but the essence of God doan need volumes of incantations. God is always present in the hearts of mankind, He doan need to be studied. 

Ofcourse the Catholic Church din let Wycliffee get away with it. Labelled  a

heretic they hounded him. Persecution of his parishers for daring to want the Holy Book for their edification. 

The Catholic Church prevailed.

After another 100 years Hurt was burnt at the stake for demanding parishers be preached to in their language.

The Catholic Prevailed again.

Another 100 years came Martin Luther, he also was a Catholic Priest. 

Just like the prophets before Christ, Christ came as fulfillment of scriptures.

The same way, after thousands of years, Gods words to Enoch is given in thousand of langauges. No conversion is necessary, anyone can commune with God. He did say, the human body is a temple.

 

Sagga bai, yuh nah making sense. The first Qur'an word uttered by Muhammad was READ! اقْرَأْ

اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَق

خَلَقَ الْإِنسَانَ مِنْ عَلَقٍ

اقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ الْأَكْرَمُ

الَّذِي عَلَّمَ بِالْقَلَمِ

عَلَّمَ الْإِنسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ

Read: In the name of thy Lord who createth

Createth man from a clot

Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous

Who teacheth by the pen

Teacheth man that which he knew not.

 

Reading and researching has always been the culture of the Qur'an. Why do you think more Muslims are more familiar with other religions than the other way around? How do you think I can navigate myself around the Bible the way I do if it wasn't because of natural curiosity? If you want to see where that culture began, just read Muhammad's own words, "seek knowledge even if you have to travel to China". And that is only one example. It was because of the high esteem that the Arabs had for academia that drove them to preserve all the writings of old that people still use today. You are living in an outdated circumstance which was able to make false claims that there was no higher learning outside of Europe but the world has chance and the truth is out that there was indeed higher learning outside of Europe and in fact some of Europe records was preserved by others previously portrayed as useless. Wake up my brother.

Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

2. Eloquence of the Qur’an?

Concerning the Qur’an’s beauty, style, and eloquence, any unbiased reader would have to admit that this is certainly true of much of the Qur’an. However, eloquence itself is hardly a logical test for inspiration. If this were the criteria used to judge a work, then we would have to say that the authors of many of the great works of antiquity were inspired by God. Homer would have to have been a prophet for producing the magnificent Iliad and the Odyssey. In the English language Shakespeare is without a peer as a dramatist, but it would be ludicrous to say that because of this his tragedies were of divine origin. Likewise for the eloquence of the Qur’an.

But what about the consistency of the Qur’an — can it be used to show that this Muslim scripture was inspired? To begin with, it can be shown that the Qur’an is not totally consistent, but rather has some major contradictions in it.12 Even if we granted the thesis that the Qur’an was totally consistent this still would not prove anything. In an essay entitled “How Muslims Do Apologetics,” Dr. John Warwick Montgomery demonstrates this for us:

This apologetic is likewise of little consequence, for the self-consistency of a writing does not prove that it is a divine revelation. Euclid’s Geometry, for example, is not self-contradictory at any point, but no one claims that this work is therefore divinely inspired in some unique sense.13

And finally, what about Muhammad’s alleged illiteracy? First of all, there is a good deal of evidence against it. But even if we granted the fact that Muhammad could not read or write this still would not make the Qur’an miraculous. Why? Because all Muslims know that he had at least several amanuenses or scribes: and therefore, he could easily have composed the Qur’an in this fashion. This would not be unique, as there are precedents for this. One that most people will be familiar with concerns Homer. He was blind and thus, in all likelihood, could not write. Yet he was the author of the Iliad and the Odyssey, the two greatest epics of the ancient world. In like fashion the question of whether or not Muhammad was illiterate really has no hearing on the case in question.

Nothing Christian Research Institute wrote here makes any sense. They make several proclamations but provide any evidence to support them. They are not like me who usually present the Biblical passage that I am commenting on. I was looking forward to them listing these "major" contradictions but they never did. In fact, the Qur'an itself proclaimed that had it not been from God, it would have many contradictions. It is now some 1500 years later with us living in the information age where any document can be quickly and easily scrutinized through computer programming and still no contradictions in the Qur'an. The other proclamation is that Muhammad was not illiterate but then again no evidence of this. So far, CRI don't seem too committed to their work here. You need better materials, Bro. Keith.

Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

3. Prophecies in the Qur’an?

Can we say that Islam’s vast expansion, predicted by Muhammad, is a fulfillment of prophecy? If we think this through for just a moment, I believe we can easily answer no.

To begin with, a leader promising his troops or followers a victory is not the least bit unique. Every commander or general does this in order to inspire his army and build up their morale. If they are then victorious, he is vindicated; if they lose then we never hear of his promises because they, along with his movement, are forgotten.

Also, the Muslim had several important incentives to consider while fighting to further the cause of Islam. If he died, he was promised to be allowed into paradise. If he lived and they were victorious in battle, the Muslim soldiers would divide up four-fifths of all the booty.

There is another reason why Islam initially expanded so rapidly. If we look at some of the Qur’anic injunctions about what the non-believers could expect at the hands of the Muslims, it is easy to understand why so many “submitted,” as found in surah 5:36:14

The punishment of those Who wage war against God And his Apostle, and strive With might and main For mischief through the land Is: execution, or crucifixion,Or the cutting off of hands And feet from opposite sides,Or exile from the land.

The polytheists had two choices, submit or die. The Christians and the Jews had a third alternative, paying heavy tribute (Qur’an 9:5, 29).

A final point to be considered is that if the fast and far reaching growth of a movement indicated divine favor, then what about such conquerors as Genghis Khan? He consolidated the Mongol tribes and in a time span shorter than early Islam’s conquered a much larger geographic area. Was his military success evidence that he was led of God? And what of Islam’s own growth which was stopped in the West by Charles Martel A.D. 732) and in the East by Leo III (A.D. 740)? Does this mean that they lost favor with Allah? What of the later history of many Islamic countries who suffered the indignity of becoming colonies of the then world powers? No, we can find nothing mysterious or supernatural about Islam’s amazing early growth or subsequent fall.

 

It is always a mistake for Muslims to become distracted by prophesy. The Qur'an claims to be a guide for mankind. It cares little if any about prophesy. This is more a Christian obsession but while they obsess about prophesy, we see them making up things to fit into earlier prophesy. Take for instance how they always call Jesus king yet he was never a king. He was born in a barn and live poor so where is this evidence of him ever being a king. In fact, it was another king who decreed his death on the cross and no Christian regards that king as greater than Jesus.

Getting Out of Step

1 Samuel 13:5-14

Saul had everything going for him. Besides being the son of a highly respected man, he had good looks and a nice physique (1 Samuel 9:1-2). Since God chose him to lead Israel at a time when the nation had some formidable enemies, we can surmise that he was also a courageous and charismatic leader. Even the prophet Samuel was impressed and spoke admiringly at Saul’s coronation: “Surely there is no one like him among all the people” (1 Samuel 10:24).

But despite Saul’s many positive attributes, he tragically spent much of his reign out of step with God. The king’s errors in judgment were mostly due to an inflated sense of self-importance. One blunder would set off a sin-filled chain reaction, as we see in his desperate quest to kill David (chapters 18-26).

The Lord hates arrogance. When people think more highly of themselves than they should (Rom. 12:3), they stop relying upon divine guidance in making decisions. Terrible consequences result from such wrong thinking. For example, the king thought so much of himself that he ignored the law and offered a pre-battle sacrifice in Samuel’s place. Because Saul refused to submit himself to God’s command, the Lord handed the kingdom over to a man who would (1 Samuel 16:13-14).

Pride always drives a person away from God’s path. With each misstep, an arrogant man or woman wanders farther into a spiritual wilderness. Nothing of lasting value can be found in such a desolate place. But the Lord will gladly welcome back the wayward. Blessing and joy await those who walk in step with Him

Ksazma numerous time I have posted my own response. Yesterday instead I posting something you might not understand. I quotes CRI who poke holes in your interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:18. In case you missed the point:

If Muhammad was illiterate as virtually all Muslims assert, then he was not like Moses who “was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians” (Acts 7:22). Muhammad is said to have received his revelations from the angel Gabriel, while Moses received the Law directly from God. Muhammad performed no signs or miracles to verify his calling, yet Moses performed many signs. Also, Muhammad was Arabic, while Moses was of Jewish origin.

If one were to peruse the Gospels, he would see that although Jesus was unlike Moses in some ways, in other ways He was very much like him. They were both Jewish, which is very important in light of what we have learned about the term “your brethren.” They both left Egypt to minister to their people (Heb. 11:27; Matt 2:15). Both also forsook great riches in order to better identify with their people (Heb. 11:24-26; John 6:15; 2 Cor. 8:9).

So we see that both Jesus and Muhammad had similarities with Moses. In what special way then was this coming prophet to be “like unto Moses”? The answer is found in Deuteronomy 34:8-10 where two distinguishing characteristics of Moses are listed:

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

In all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land,

And by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.

This is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 18:15-18. Notice that two specific things are mentioned about Moses here in referring back to the earlier prophecy. The first is that the Lord knew Moses “face to face. “23 Muhammad never had this type of relationship with God; indeed, in Islam God is so transcendent that except for the unique case of Moses He never spoke directly with men.

Jesus, “the Word made flesh” (John 1:14), is the only one who ever had a relationship with God like Moses had. In fact, Jesus’ relationship far surpasses that of Moses: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

The second characteristic feature of Moses, that he came with many “signs” and “wonders,” hardly needs to be expounded on. The many miracles that both Moses and Jesus worked are well known. The Qur’an itself testifies that Muhammad worked no miracles.24

And finally, Jesus Himself tells us who the prophet is that Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is prophesying: “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me” (John 5:46).25"

I was going to get to the Moses response next as that was next CRI's list that you cited. Jesus was nothing like Moses because if he was you wouldn't be worshipping him so I wouldn't bore you with arguing over that. As I stated before, Muhammad does not need the Bible to assert his existence. Last night I pointed out that Homer may be no more than a figment of people's imagination. But it is good that you posted that verse about since Moses there has not been IN ISRAEL a prophet like Moses who God knew face to face. This denies Jesus and similarly with Jesus but it also excludes that prophet from being an Isrealite. Secondly, Muhammad did meet God face to face when he made his night journey to heaven. In fact even the angel Gabriel was not allowed to go to the highest heaven A's Muhammad so CRI's argument is completely flawed. Lastly, Muhammad did perform miracles and they can be better verified than those of any other person.

I will address the others one by one.

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

2. Eloquence of the Qur’an?

Concerning the Qur’an’s beauty, style, and eloquence, any unbiased reader would have to admit that this is certainly true of much of the Qur’an. However, eloquence itself is hardly a logical test for inspiration. If this were the criteria used to judge a work, then we would have to say that the authors of many of the great works of antiquity were inspired by God. Homer would have to have been a prophet for producing the magnificent Iliad and the Odyssey. In the English language Shakespeare is without a peer as a dramatist, but it would be ludicrous to say that because of this his tragedies were of divine origin. Likewise for the eloquence of the Qur’an.

But what about the consistency of the Qur’an — can it be used to show that this Muslim scripture was inspired? To begin with, it can be shown that the Qur’an is not totally consistent, but rather has some major contradictions in it.12 Even if we granted the thesis that the Qur’an was totally consistent this still would not prove anything. In an essay entitled “How Muslims Do Apologetics,” Dr. John Warwick Montgomery demonstrates this for us:

This apologetic is likewise of little consequence, for the self-consistency of a writing does not prove that it is a divine revelation. Euclid’s Geometry, for example, is not self-contradictory at any point, but no one claims that this work is therefore divinely inspired in some unique sense.13

And finally, what about Muhammad’s alleged illiteracy? First of all, there is a good deal of evidence against it. But even if we granted the fact that Muhammad could not read or write this still would not make the Qur’an miraculous. Why? Because all Muslims know that he had at least several amanuenses or scribes: and therefore, he could easily have composed the Qur’an in this fashion. This would not be unique, as there are precedents for this. One that most people will be familiar with concerns Homer. He was blind and thus, in all likelihood, could not write. Yet he was the author of the Iliad and the Odyssey, the two greatest epics of the ancient world. In like fashion the question of whether or not Muhammad was illiterate really has no hearing on the case in question.

Nothing Christian Research Institute wrote here makes any sense. They make several proclamations but provide any evidence to support them. They are not like me who usually present the Biblical passage that I am commenting on. I was looking forward to them listing these "major" contradictions but they never did. In fact, the Qur'an itself proclaimed that had it not been from God, it would have many contradictions. It is now some 1500 years later with us living in the information age where any document can be quickly and easily scrutinized through computer programming and still no contradictions in the Qur'an. The other proclamation is that Muhammad was not illiterate but then again no evidence of this. So far, CRI don't seem too committed to their work here. You need better materials, Bro. Keith.

Not surprise what mention you don't understand or it doesn't make sense to you especially when discrediting what you were trying to claim. It just doesn't fit your belief. We get it

ksazma posted:

I was going to get to the Moses response next as that was next CRI's list that you cited. Jesus was nothing like Moses because if he was you wouldn't be worshipping him so I wouldn't bore you with arguing over that. As I stated before, Muhammad does not need the Bible to assert his existence. Last night I pointed out that Homer may be no more than a figment of people's imagination. But it is good that you posted that verse about since Moses there has not been IN ISRAEL a prophet like Moses who God knew face to face. This denies Jesus and similarly with Jesus but it also excludes that prophet from being an Isrealite. Secondly, Muhammad did meet God face to face when he made his night journey to heaven. In fact even the angel Gabriel was not allowed to go to the highest heaven A's Muhammad so CRI's argument is completely flawed. Lastly, Muhammad did perform miracles and they can be better verified than those of any other person.

I will address the others one by one.

According to Wiki, a source you love to quite, "According to historian Denis Gril, the Qur'an does not overtly describe Muhammad performing miracles, and the supreme miracle of Muhammad is finally identified with the Qur'an itself"

In my opinion, it is the rather explicit teaching of the Quran that Muhammad performed no supernatural, verifiable miracles apart from the inspiration that he received. The Quran in several places emphatically negates the idea of Muhammad performing physical feats such as raising the dead, healing the sick, opening physically blind eyes etc. I have list citations here in order for you to see the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous.

And they that know not say, "Why does God not speak to us? Why does a sign (ayatun) not come to us?" So spoke those before them as these men say; their hearts are much alike. Yet We have made clear the signs (bayyanna al-ayati) unto a people who are sure. S. 2:118.

Yet if thou shouldst bring to those that have been given the Book every sign (ayatun), they will not follow thy direction; thou art not a follower of their direction, neither are they followers of one another's direction. If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou wilt surely be among the evildoers. S. 2:145.

They also say, "Why has no sign (ayatun) been sent down upon him from his Lord?" Say: 'Surely God is able to send down a sign (ayatan), but most of them know not.' S. 6:37.

They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths if a sign (ayatun) comes to them they will believe in it. Say, "Signs (al-ayatu) are only with God." What will make you realize that, when it comes, they will not believe? S. 6:109

They say, "Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?" Say, "The Unseen belongs only to God. Then watch and wait; I shall be with you watching and waiting." S. 10:20.

The unbelievers say, "Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?" Thou art ONLY a warner, and a guide to every people. S. 13:7.

The preceding text presupposes that Muhammad’s only function was to warn people, not to perform miracles. After all, the statement "Thou art ONLY a warner" would make no sense if a warner could in fact perform wonders. In other words, being a warner wouldn’t preclude Muhammad from doing any signs unless, of course, the point being made by the Quran is that such individuals who assumed this role were not empowered to do miracles.

The next text further illustrates this point, "Then, it may be that you will give up part of what is revealed to you and your breast will become straightened by it because they say: Why has not a treasure been sent down upon him or an angel come with him? You are ONLY a warner; and Allah is custodian over all things. S. 11:12 Shakir"

I.e., "since you are only a warner it is not your job to perform miracles since you haven’t been given that ability. Rather, your job is to simply exhort and admonish people."

The unbelievers say, "Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?" Say: 'God leads astray whomsoever He will, and He guides to Him all who are penitent.' S. 13:27

Naught prevented Us from sending the signs (bial-ayati) but that the ancients cried lies to them; and We brought Thamood the She-camel visible, but they did her wrong. And We do not send the signs, except to frighten. S. 17:59

This last passage is one of the clearest proofs that Muhammad did absolutely no miracles whatsoever. The text says that Allah refrained from providing miracles, which would make no sense at all if Muhammad did indeed perform signs and wonders. Regarding this verse, the late Sunni scholar Muhammad Asad candidly admitted:

This highly elliptic sentence has a fundamental bearing on the purport of the Qur'an as a whole. In many places the Qur'an stresses the fact that the Prophet Muhammad, despite his being the last and greatest of God's apostles, WAS NOT EMPOWERED TO PERFORM MIRACLES similar to those with which the earlier prophets are said to have reinforced their verbal messages. His ONLY miracle was and is the Qur'an itself a message perfect in its lucidity and ethical comprehensiveness, destined for all times and all stages of human development, addressed not merely to the feelings but also to the minds of men, open to everyone, whatever his race or social environment, and bound to remain unchanged forever.

So ksazma, the Quran explicitly says that Muhammad performed no miracles apart from the alleged inspiration he received. His only miracle was supposedly the Quran. The claim that the word al-bayyinat implies that Muhammad did perform miracles is not substantiated by the data since the term is used in reference to Muhammad receiving or reciting the Quran. In other words, Muhammad’s clear signs, his al-bayyinat, were nothing more than the Quran itself.

I am not a religious hack so I am not chained to statements like you do. Take for instance how you swallowed up that claim about Homer when Homer is a fiction. But so are many of the fictions of the Bible.

Indeed Muhammad performed many miracles including the one where he went to heaven even before he died. The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years so the statements are related to that point in time and not what took place after it. It is not like the Bible that attempted to narrate events already. Perhaps you missed where the Qur'an stated that it abrogates matter when they are no longer necessary.

ksazma posted:

I am not a religious hack so I am not chained to statements like you do. Take for instance how you swallowed up that claim about Homer when Homer is a fiction. But so are many of the fictions of the Bible.

Indeed Muhammad performed many miracles including the one where he went to heaven even before he died. The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years so the statements are related to that point in time and not what took place after it. It is not like the Bible that attempted to narrate events already. Perhaps you missed where the Qur'an stated that it abrogates matter when they are no longer necessary.

I am chained to what I know is the in corruptible truth of God, His word. Therefore when you make certain statements you must first, understand what you are talking about, secondly give supportive statements of the subject being discuss. I'm not saying you are a religious hack. I stand up for what I believe. I wouldn't sit here quietly looking at you trying to discredit my belief. I know the God whom I follow.

Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

4. Science and the Qur’an?

A very recent Islamic polemic. The Bible, the Qur’an and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille, attempts to demonstrate that the Qur’an must have been divinely inspired because it allegedly states many things that were unknown in the seventh century and have subsequently become known only in our twentieth century.

In answering Dr. Bucaille it must first be pointed out that the bulk of the book does not deal with the Qur’an and science. Rather, most of it is an attempt (using the techniques of higher criticism) to disgrace the Bible. The portions of his book which do attempt to show that the Qur’an is in amazing agreement with twentieth-century scientific knowledge are very vague.

However, what if we were to grant his thesis that the statements in the Qur’an are in total agreement with modern science? Dr. Bucaille states that if this were true, then “it is unthinkable that a man of Muhammad’s time could have been the author of them.”15 I agree with his conclusion, assuming his thesis is true. If the Qur’an has detailed scientific statements which we have only recently discovered to be true, and yet it was written in the seventh century A.D., then it could not have been merely the product of Muhammad. But this does not identify the source of the information, it only shows that no human being could have written it without superhuman help.

If indeed the Qur’an had a supernatural origin, then we are still left with the task of finding out who its source was. Dr. Bucaille assumes that it must be God, but why? If we pause and think for just a moment, we realize that there are other supernatural beings besides God. One of these beings is referred to as Satan in the Bible, as well as in the Qur’an. The Bible tells us that he has been on the earth as long as man has, that he has powers and intelligence far superior to ours, and that he is “the father of lies” (John 8:44). To whisper some scientific facts into someone’s ear would be no great feat for him. As a matter of fact the Bible says that he does appear to men from time to time: “For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:14). It is interesting that this is exactly the initial fear that Muhammad had the first time he heard the voice speak to him.16

 

Actually, what Dr. Bucaille said that while the Old and New Testaments have many statements disproven by modern science, none of the statements in the Qur'an were disproven by modern (1970s) science. He went on to say that there were other passages in the Qur'an that while no science today (1970s) corroborate them, they were also not disproven. The doctor only spoke of the record. It is not his fault that the Bible speaks of a 6000 years old world when modern science has proven that the world is some 4.5 billion years old. And CRI classic retreat. If that silly argument fails, then accept its supernatural origin but know that it is from Satan. Interestingly, Satan inspiring the Qur'an seem smarter and better than God inspiring the Bible. The Qur'an is free of mistakes and contradictions while the Bible is littered with them. Not so long ago, I posted two passages. One from Isaiah and the other from Kings and they were word for word copies even though they were supposedly written by two different authors over years apart. It is first hand plagiarism. Additionally, Satan being an angel is a Biblical mistake. Satan was never an angel so he cannot disguise himself as an angel of light and whisper into Muhammad's ear. According to Islam, Satan is a jinn and not an angel. Angels don't have free will like humans and jinns. They are programmed to do as they are commanded and at no time could Satan as an angel ever refuse to do anything.

Keith posted:

 

The “Miracle” of the Qur’an — The Christian Response

5. Sources of the Qur’an

In concluding this section on the Qur’an the reader may be interested to know that many of the stories or accounts found within the Qur’an are traceable to very similiar (sometimes almost identical) stories found in pre-Islamic writings. I would direct the reader to Clair-Tisdall’s classic The Sources of Islam, Rev. W. Goldsack’s The Origins of the Qur’an, and Samuel M. Zwerner’s Islam: A Challenge to Faith.

 

The Qur'an does indeed mentioned stories and events mentioned in earlier documents. The clear difference is that the Qur'an does not copy those stories and events and so does not suffer the same fate as those other records when that information was able to be properly scrutinized through our computerized age. The Qur'an does not have the story of the two whoring sisters, Samson and Judah screwing women on the roadside or even Rueben having sex with his step mother. Somehow it managed to miss those salacious stories. The Qur'an claims to confirm things that happened in the past and correct other documents that when those documents were wrong. It is essentially a guide so it does not obsess itself with old stories and except when it can use that story to teach a lesson. Remember when I ask you about what lesson God taught about Samson screwing the prostitute at the roadside? That is because the nest sentence did not show God telling Samson that he will punish him. Now while the Qur'an does not have the story of Samson screwing the prostitute, if it did, it would say that screwing a prostitute at the roadside is not only sinful but is also dangerous given the many sexually transmitted diseases. The Qur'an is a book you would adore if you weren't biased. After all, you hang on to that flawed book when everyone not blinded by blind faith is able to recognize how flawed it is.

Regarding whether Muhammad is referenced in the Bible, some Muslims over obsessed on that. I don't care to. I only brought it up in responding to one of your posts regarding the Spirit of Truth and its interpolation of the words "which is the Holy Ghost". Jesus is nothing like Moses and the passage you posted earlier stated that after Moses, there was never another prophet like Moses who the Lord knew face to face. Everything you believe about Jesus make him unfit to be that prophet. But like I stated earlier. Muhammad does not need the support of that flawed book to verify his existence. He is not seen as a myth. Jesus is by more than half of the world's population.

I don't care to respond to the part of your post about who Jesus is especially that is not who Jesus said he is. Jesus is not God or any co equal to God. He had no idea that people would come after him claiming that he is equal to God.

Understanding the Christian Life

Galatians 1:11-17

Have you ever wondered why some new Christians seem to soar in their new-found relationship with the Lord while others nosedive within a few weeks? Let’s consider what makes the difference.

Those of us who have been Christians for a long time might forget that salvation involves a change not only in lifestyle but also in thinking and understanding. Shortly after encountering Jesus on the road to Damascus, Paul pulled away to Arabia for a time. Before the apostle could start his ministry, his mind had to be reprogrammed, so he needed to learn from the Lord (Rom. 12:2). Similarly, new believers coming into faith with old misconceptions need to understand what salvation really means.

Let’s look at some terms that help explain what is meant by “being saved”:

Born again (John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17). New birth means new life. It implies starting over; the old life isn’t simply renovated but is actually replaced by a new one.

Converted (1 Thess. 1:9). Converting something means changing it, like money that’s exchanged from one currency to another, or energy that’s changed from one form to another. The Christian life must involve change.

Receiving Christ (John 1:12). We often think of salvation as something God gives us, but it is more than that. When someone trusts in Christ, that person welcomes the Lord to live within his or her heart.

Think about how you thought and lived before you knew the Savior, as compared with now. In what ways do you see genuine change? Ask God to reveal areas in which the life of Christ needs to become more evident.

ksazma posted:

Regarding whether Muhammad is referenced in the Bible, some Muslims over obsessed on that. I don't care to. I only brought it up in responding to one of your posts regarding the Spirit of Truth and its interpolation of the words "which is the Holy Ghost". Jesus is nothing like Moses and the passage you posted earlier stated that after Moses, there was never another prophet like Moses who the Lord knew face to face. Everything you believe about Jesus make him unfit to be that prophet. But like I stated earlier. Muhammad does not need the support of that flawed book to verify his existence. He is not seen as a myth. Jesus is by more than half of the world's population.

I don't care to respond to the part of your post about who Jesus is especially that is not who Jesus said he is. Jesus is not God or any co equal to God. He had no idea that people would come after him claiming that he is equal to God.

Jesus said He and the Father is one. Perfection in His ways, the way He would think is identical to the thoughts of God.

I know you doan care much for the Bible. However, a long time before this generation, the Bible predicts human behaviour towards their creator. In your words, more than half of the world doan care for Christ. When the number gets down to 144,000, rest assure He is coming back. By that time muslims will take over the world according to Chief. The man helping to bring about the truthfuness/accuracy of the Bible. 

Indeed Jesus said that he and the Father are one. Muslims argue that he meant in mission and not in person. That is because he also said that he of his own self can do NOTHING. He by the finger of God cast out demons. The second statement is clearer than the first in establishing that Jesus is no equal to God.

Every person of God tells their followers to follow them so Jesus doing so is not unique. Plus the stories in the Bible are not coherent. Muhammad's message on the other hand is so clear that it is the number one reason given by converted Muslims for why they became a Muslim.

The Reverend R. Bosworth Smith once noted that "while there are more professing Christian in the world, there are more practicing Muslims in the world". The percentage of Muslims who understand and practice their faith is extremely high while many Christians will say they are Christians but either don't understand Christianity or it doesn't appeal to then enough to be more committed.

The Qur'an has a passage on this where God stated that He revealed the Qur'an in stages "so that it can be understood and remembered". 

People who really understands the Quran reads it as a continuation of God revealing Himself to humanity. Even before Buddha, men contemplated their existence in relation to the Supreme. And many wrote their thoughts. Job was also such a man.

Just as Christianity has a great many ill informed, babbling their interpretation of what they read and supposedly claim to undersatnd, so also is the vast majority of muslims.

I have read commentaries by devout muslims whose words are similar to the scriptures. They are very few. Those men are mainly Middle Eastern Scholars, quiet and revered in the awe of God. Those men doan go about challenging the billions of muslims who doan know God. That is if God is Allah. 

At the end of time, the Scriptures will accepted as God's words. Because what He says will happen is happening in real time.

ksazma posted:

Indeed Jesus said that he and the Father are one. Muslims argue that he meant in mission and not in person. That is because he also said that he of his own self can do NOTHING. He by the finger of God cast out demons. The second statement is clearer than the first in establishing that Jesus is no equal to God.

Every person of God tells their followers to follow them so Jesus doing so is not unique. Plus the stories in the Bible are not coherent. Muhammad's message on the other hand is so clear that it is the number one reason given by converted Muslims for why they became a Muslim.

Born into the muslim faith, is bondage. Recent converts to islam is there in the hope that their eyes are opened to realize Believing in Christ is the sure thing. Like the Lord said, those with eyes will see, those with ears will hear. 

Messengers of God gives exactly the same message Unfortunately, not all men allow their hearts to the revealation. They more or less contemplate differences.

People who really understands the Quran reads it as a continuation of God revealing Himself to humanity. Even before Buddha, men contemplated their existence in relation to the Supreme. And many wrote their thoughts. Job was also such a man.

Just as Christianity has a great many ill informed, babbling their interpretation of what they read and supposedly claim to undersatnd, so also is the vast majority of muslims.

I have read commentaries by devout muslims whose words are similar to the scriptures. They are very few. Those men are mainly Middle Eastern Scholars, quiet and revered in the awe of God. Those men doan go about challenging the billions of muslims who doan know God. That is if God is Allah. 

At the end of time, the Scriptures will accepted as God's words. Because what He says will happen is happening in real time.

seignet posted:

People who really understands the Quran reads it as a continuation of God revealing Himself to humanity.

Not quite if you are suggesting that Jesus is God.

Other than that, Muslims do believe that God has endowed people with His knowledge in every part of the world. There is nothing in Islamic teaching precluding a Muslims from accepting all the religious personalities as people sent by God to guide mankind.

وَمَا كَانَ هَـذَا الْقُرْآنُ أَن يُفْتَرَى مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَـكِن تَصْدِيقَ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds. Qur'an - 10:37 (Y. Ali)

نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it

بَلْ جَاء بِالْحَقِّ وَصَدَّقَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

Nay! he has come with the (very) Truth, and he confirms (the Message of) the apostles (before him). Qur'an - 37:37 (Y. Ali)  

 

What Muslims will never accept is the association of anyone or anything with God.

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ

لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten

And there is none like Him Qur'an - 112:1-4 (Y. Ali)

 

God is too grand to fit in any place or person.

اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاء وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). Qur'an - 2:255 (Y. Ali)

 

Secondly, Muslims also have a responsibility to not impose their faiths or religious practices on others.

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Qur'an - 2:256 (Y. Ali) 

 


When it comes to actually acknowledging people of other faiths, cultures and places, the Qur'an is quite different from the Bible. The Qur'an acknowledges that people from other parts of the world were also guided by God to teach their communities whereas the Bible only acknowledges the people of Israel. Based on the message of the Bible, only those people are mentioned or given the favors of God even though some of them demonstrated some very lowly practices like Samson going to Gaza, saw a prostitute and went into her right there on the roadside. Or Judah screwing his own daughter in law thinking that she was a prostitute. Or even Rueben screwing his step mother on the rooftop. And those are not the only cases of this kind of behavior. If you read the Bible, you would hardly know that there is any place outside of Judea & Samaria.

The Unconditional Love of God

Romans 5:6-8

New believers may find it difficult to accept that God loves us just as we are. Much of the world operates by conditional love, which offers approval and acceptance on the basis of performance. So when we first come to Christ, there is often a natural tendency to assume we must strive to “earn” blessings—such as monetary wealth, loving families, and solid careers.

Divine love, however, can never be earned by human effort. There’s absolutely nothing we can do to make our Father love us more. Nor can we influence Him to ever stop loving us. (See Rom. 8:38-39.) Many believers understand this intellectually, but they may have trouble believing it deep down in their heart.

No matter what has occurred in your past or what you feel right now, God’s love has always been freely given to you. Our heavenly Father pours His love upon us without exception—no ifs, ands, or buts. It’s not as if He postponed loving you until the moment you invited Him into your life. Nor did He begin loving you when you first started going to church or when you rose from the baptismal waters. In truth, the Lord never began to love you at all; He simply always has. From the creation of the world, God knew you and loved you (1 John 4:19; Psalm 139:13-16).

Are you rejoicing in the Father’s love? Do you exude peace, or are you focused on what-ifs? Is your life characterized by power and purpose or by fear? Recognizing the amazing truth of God’s unconditional love is life-changing. Prayerfully open your arms to His love today.

If the Heavenly Father loves us so unconditionally, why does He allow more than half of the world's population to live in abject poverty and misery. Nothing is given. Everything is earned and if there is truly a God, He or She prove that every day so this nonsense about unconditional love is like a ponzie scheme. Anything worth having is worth striving for and if heaven is so special you shouldn't get it if you are lazy and irresponsible.

Bro. Keith will note that I actually post thoughts whereas he generally post seasons. Pure evidence of the deceptive methods of the preacher. And this is the case with preachers of all religions so I am not singling out Christian preachers.

ksazma posted:

When it comes to actually acknowledging people of other faiths, cultures and places, the Qur'an is quite different from the Bible. The Qur'an acknowledges that people from other parts of the world were also guided by God to teach their communities whereas the Bible only acknowledges the people of Israel. Based on the message of the Bible, only those people are mentioned or given the favors of God even though some of them demonstrated some very lowly practices like Samson going to Gaza, saw a prostitute and went into her right there on the roadside. Or Judah screwing his own daughter in law thinking that she was a prostitute. Or even Rueben screwing his step mother on the rooftop. And those are not the only cases of this kind of behavior. If you read the Bible, you would hardly know that there is any place outside of Judea & Samaria.

Once again, Entrapment, Entrapment, Entrapment. I doan expect u to give up on that thought, but I hope somehow good reasoning prevail. Mohammad was a jewish believer, the only man of Arabic people who believed in a monolithic God, and about 600 years after Christ proclaimed the Father to the world. All around the Globe the Spirit was revealed. But not Arabia. The God of the Christ sent the Arabians a special messenger(not a prophet only a messenger like Jonah) to tell them of Christ.

I hope u get wan revealation on dis prostitute thing. Seeing yuh believe in Mahammad, I hope he has the power of the Comforter and comfort you.

If you fail to be comforted, then ask Christ, He can do all things in the Father.

Happy Father's day.

seignet posted:
ksazma posted:

When it comes to actually acknowledging people of other faiths, cultures and places, the Qur'an is quite different from the Bible. The Qur'an acknowledges that people from other parts of the world were also guided by God to teach their communities whereas the Bible only acknowledges the people of Israel. Based on the message of the Bible, only those people are mentioned or given the favors of God even though some of them demonstrated some very lowly practices like Samson going to Gaza, saw a prostitute and went into her right there on the roadside. Or Judah screwing his own daughter in law thinking that she was a prostitute. Or even Rueben screwing his step mother on the rooftop. And those are not the only cases of this kind of behavior. If you read the Bible, you would hardly know that there is any place outside of Judea & Samaria.

Once again, Entrapment, Entrapment, Entrapment. I doan expect u to give up on that thought, but I hope somehow good reasoning prevail. Mohammad was a jewish believer, the only man of Arabic people who believed in a monolithic God, and about 600 years after Christ proclaimed the Father to the world. All around the Globe the Spirit was revealed. But not Arabia. The God of the Christ sent the Arabians a special messenger(not a prophet only a messenger like Jonah) to tell them of Christ.

 

Bai Siggy, perhaps this will clear your mind about if Muhammad was a messenger or a prophet. Guess what? He was both as stated in this Qur'anic passage.

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

And this is what Muhammad said of Jesus

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُون

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً

O followers S of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.

 

And Happy Fathers Day to you also.

The Testing of Our Commitment

Hebrews 11:8-9

In situations when God is testing us, He will teach us new and deeper truths about Himself, His purposes, and His promises. Though we feel stretched in painful seasons, such difficulties are always designed to be beneficial.

From a human perspective, times of testing can be baffling because we don’t understand how anything good could result. Consider God’s command that Abraham sacrifice his long-awaited son Isaac. Abraham’s earthly viewpoint could have regarded this order as:

Unreasonable. “I cherish my son above all else. How could You ask this?”

Untimely. “Why now, Lord? My son is still young. He is the one through whom my descendants are to come.”

Unfair. “It’s not right that You ask this. Haven’t I left home to follow You?”

Unbearable. “This is too hard for me. I cannot take this pain.”

Abraham rejected that kind of thinking. Instead, he trusted God. The trial revealed Abraham’s unshakable commitment to the Lord’s plan.

Knowing which circumstances will help us grow, our Father asks us to exercise faith and choose His way. Recalling His unending love and wholehearted commitment to His children will help us do this. Be assured that God makes no mistakes in His dealings with us.

Imagine Abraham’s joy when the Lord provided a ram as a sacrifice in Isaac’s place. We will receive the same reward of spiritual joy when we remain steadfast. Won’t you respond to times of testing as Abraham did—by trusting and obeying God?

Speaking of Abraham, we learned that when he was small, he was left in charged of guarding his fathet's idols. But rather than guard them, he destroyed them except for the biggest one. When the people returned, they asked him what happened. Pointing to the only remaining statue, he replied, "ask him". They retorted. That statue can't talk. To this Abraham responded, "I wish your ears would hear what your mouth is saying". 

Lots of people in their quest to find God assume that someone or something is God. No fault in that as the objective is noble. The fault is when one has clear signs that their assumption is misplaced but still take no heed. Christians take pleasure in labeling other religions as idolatry or cults while they completely ignore that, because of Paul's mischief, their religion is no different from idolatry or cult.

Work Is a Ministry

Ephesians 6:5-8

Christians sometimes make the mistake of mentally separating their work life from their spiritual life. This mindset says, “Sunday is the Lord’s day, but the rest of the week belongs to me.” That is an unbiblical way to live. God’s Holy Spirit should be involved in everything we do, and we ought to recognize Him as our guide, comforter, and intercessor no matter where we are. Why would we want to exclude Him from something that takes up a large part of our week?

The apostle Paul clearly teaches that work is to be done as for the Lord (Col. 3:23). Other people may do a job better because of greater skill or experience, but believers should be known for doing quality work in a timely, wise, and respectful manner. And we can trust the Holy Spirit to equip us to do just that.

Serving the Lord on the job means that our workplace is also our ministry site. A job provides money to support the family, but when done faithfully, it becomes far more than simply a means to make a living. One’s work also develops character, builds a sense of self-worth, and develops skills. Moreover, while we are around coworkers for a number of hours each day, we have opportunity to build relationships, bear testimony, and glorify our heavenly Father.

Work shouldn’t be seen as drudgery; it is an opportunity to show love for the Lord. The reward for those who serve God and love others on the job is greater than a paycheck. They are blessed with a ministry—a harvest field for the kingdom, right inside the factory, office building, or construction site.

 

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and reason with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. Qur'an - 16:125 (Y. Ali) 

No doubt it is a good idea to indulge in beautiful preaching or as Bro. Keith would prefer, sermons. That said when it comes to faith and religion, truth is extremely essential.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness. Qur'an - 48:28 (Y. Ali) 

Unfortunately Bro. Keith seems to not know why the unconditionally loving Father made that sandbox for his children or he is just avoiding it because he knows that it contradicts his entrapping sermon that the Father loves us unconditionally.

Like in all the other situations, eventually I will have to clarify why God made that sandbox and the true ways of God. Those answers cannot be found in the Bible because the Bible is flawed. Especially the New Testament.

 

The Keys to Success

1 Thessalonians 5:24

Have you ever felt discouraged about trying to live the Christian life? If your efforts to make a difference in the world seem fruitless, following the Lord’s example could change your outlook.

Christ served others in love, and His actions had tremendous impact in the world. How was He so effective? Scripture tells us that Jesus did not speak or act on His own initiative but instead depended upon His Father abiding in Him to do the work (John 14:10). And we are to do likewise.

Yet we often attempt to serve out of our own skills, intelligence, and ability to reason. Even though we may pour great effort and long hours into ministry, these alone won’t produce fruitfulness. It’s far more important to minister as the Lord intended.

True service is commissioned, empowered, and blessed by God alone. It may be our hands that are laboring, but our Father is the One at work. And the glory belongs to Him, not us.

What comfort this should give us! The Lord is not looking just for people who are extremely talented. He will use all who are willing to let His Spirit work through them. And we can be confident that He will provide everything we need in order to do whatever He asks.

Who among us can serve the living God? Truthfully, no one can. Genuine service occurs only when we allow the Almighty to pour Himself through us; we are mere vessels. Even if the impact is not obvious to us, we know that God always achieves His purpose—and what’s more, He is glorified.

ksazma posted:
Unfortunately Bro. Keith seems to not know why the unconditionally loving Father made that sandbox for his children or he is just avoiding it because he knows that it contradicts his entrapping sermon that the Father loves us unconditionally.

Like in all the other situations, eventually I will have to clarify why God made that sandbox and the true ways of God. Those answers cannot be found in the Bible because the Bible is flawed. Especially the New Testament.

I don't think you or your religion is an position to understand or speak about unconditional love. Most of us know about God, but that is quite different from knowing God. Why don't you meditate on that for a moment.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Unfortunately Bro. Keith seems to not know why the unconditionally loving Father made that sandbox for his children or he is just avoiding it because he knows that it contradicts his entrapping sermon that the Father loves us unconditionally.

 

 

Most of us know about God, but that is quite different from knowing God.

The Reverend Jimmy Swaggart used to say the same thing. In fact, he used to claim he had a direct line to God. So what went wrong?

By the way, you seem a bit agitated. Was that a sign that you felt cornered? Don't be too hard on yourself. It is not your fault that the teachings are inadequate.

The Reasons We Serve

Colossians 3:23-24

In His Word, God commands us to serve one another. (See Gal. 5:13.) However, in life there will inevitably be difficult people who make this mandate challenging.

Thankfully, a biblical definition of service can help us obey the Lord’s instruction, no matter who the recipient may be. And the reason is that God is actually the One whom we serve.

When we have this motivation underlying everything we do, it will impact the quality of our work and keep us from becoming discouraged. Then, whatever our task—whether we lead a company, teach children, or do something less appealing—if our goal is to glorify God, we will do our best in His strength. And we trust Him to use us for His purposes, even if our labor should appear fruitless to us or to others.

When I was a child, I had to wake up before daylight to deliver newspapers. Even in rain or snow, I still had to complete the job. This was hard for me to do. Then the Lord impressed upon my heart that I was not merely bringing papers to people in my town; I was serving Jesus. As I understood this truth more, waking up and working was purposeful and doable. Truthfully, I still did not always feel like facing the work, but feelings were no longer relevant. I was serving my Maker.

Whomever God calls us to serve and whatever He tells us to do, we can obey with joyful hearts when it’s done for Jesus Christ. If this is our motivation, we won’t need worldly approval or evidence of impact. We need to know only that God is pleased and promises to reward those who serve Him (Heb. 11:6).

Keith posted:

 

We need to know only that God is pleased and promises to reward those who serve Him (Heb. 11:6).

If God promises to reward those who serve Him, what does He do with those who don't serve Him? And how does His response to each of them fit into His unconditional love mantra?

ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Unfortunately Bro. Keith seems to not know why the unconditionally loving Father made that sandbox for his children or he is just avoiding it because he knows that it contradicts his entrapping sermon that the Father loves us unconditionally.

 

 

Most of us know about God, but that is quite different from knowing God.

The Reverend Jimmy Swaggart used to say the same thing. In fact, he used to claim he had a direct line to God. So what went wrong?

By the way, you seem a bit agitated. Was that a sign that you felt cornered? Don't be too hard on yourself. It is not your fault that the teachings are inadequate.

What give you the impression that I'm agitated? The only thing that is troubling is ignorance which is on display daily.

I notice the highest and greatest reward for Muslim men is to go to heaven where he will have 72 houris at his sexual disposal and whim. I wonder what Muslim women get as their great reward?  One would only speculate the woman reward may be to be rid of Muslim men . The description of heaven is exactly what a 7th century Arab male would find appealing in the physical sense only: 80,000 servants, 72 beautiful sex slaves, wine and booze, fruit, shade, fine clothing and jewelry, carpets made of silk, music etc. In fact I wonder if Hugh Hefner is in fact a secret Muslim, given the fact that he is living now on earth, like Muslim hope to live like when they get to heaven. It is puzzling why Muslims forbid wine, booze and alcoholic drinks now, but they will be permitted in heaven.

On a serious note tell me, in your opinion what will the God of Islam do with the wicked? What will he do with Azazel aka Iblis? Is there a final judgement?

Us Christians there is a final judgement and the first thing to understand about the final judgment is that it cannot be avoided. Regardless of how we may choose to interpret prophecy on the end times, we are told that "it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). We all have a divine appointment with our Creator. The apostle John recorded some details of the final judgment:

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire" (Revelation 20:11-15).

This passage introduces to us the final judgment the end of human history and the beginning of the eternal state. We can be sure of this: no mistakes will be made in our hearings because we will be judged by a perfect God (Matthew 5:48; 1 John 1:5). This will manifest itself in many undeniable proofs. First, God will be perfectly just and fair (Acts 10:34; Galatians 3:28). Second, God cannot be deceived (Galatians 6:7). Third, God cannot be swayed by any prejudices, excuses or lies (Luke 14:16-24).

As God the Son, Jesus Christ will be the judge (John 5:22). All unbelievers will be judged by Christ at the "great white throne," and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are storing up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5) and that God will "give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6). (Believers will also be judged, at a different judgment called the "judgment seat of Christ" (Romans 14:10), but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the Book of Life, we will be rewarded, not punished, according to our deeds.) At the final judgment the fate of the unsaved will be in the hands of the omniscient God who will judge everyone according to his soul’s condition.

For now, our fate is in our own hands. The end of our soul’s journey will be either in an eternal heaven or in an eternal hell (Matthew 25:46). We must choose where we will be by accepting or rejecting the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf, and we must make that choice before our physical lives on this earth come to an end. After death, there is no longer a choice, and our fate is to stand before the throne of God, where everything will be open and naked before Him (Hebrews 4:13). Romans 2:6 declares that God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Is there 72 virgins awaiting us, absolutely NOT! In Luke 23:43, Jesus declared, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." The word Jesus used for "paradise" is paradeisos which means "a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, paradise)".

We are unable to fully serve God in this life due to sin, but in heaven "every curse will no longer be" (Revelation 22:3). We will not be under the curse of sin any longer, so everything we do will be worship in heaven. We will never be motivated by anything other than our love for God. Everything we do will be out of our love for God, untainted by our sin nature.

God's Word says we won't have to be in His paradise alone. "I shall fully know even as I also am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12). This would seem to indicate that we will not only know our friends and family, we will "fully know" them. In other words, there is no need for secrets in heaven. There is nothing to be ashamed of. There is nothing to hide. We will have eternity to interact with "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues" (Revelation 7:9). No wonder heaven will be a place of infinite learning. Just getting to know everyone will take eternity!

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Keith posted:
ksazma posted:
Unfortunately Bro. Keith seems to not know why the unconditionally loving Father made that sandbox for his children or he is just avoiding it because he knows that it contradicts his entrapping sermon that the Father loves us unconditionally.

 

 

Most of us know about God, but that is quite different from knowing God.

The Reverend Jimmy Swaggart used to say the same thing. In fact, he used to claim he had a direct line to God. So what went wrong?

By the way, you seem a bit agitated. Was that a sign that you felt cornered? Don't be too hard on yourself. It is not your fault that the teachings are inadequate.

What give you the impression that I'm agitated? The only thing that is troubling is ignorance which is on display daily.

I notice the highest and greatest reward for Muslim men is to go to heaven where he will have 72 houris at his sexual disposal and whim. I wonder what Muslim women get as their great reward?  One would only speculate the woman reward may be to be rid of Muslim men . The description of heaven is exactly what a 7th century Arab male would find appealing in the physical sense only: 80,000 servants, 72 beautiful sex slaves, wine and booze, fruit, shade, fine clothing and jewelry, carpets made of silk, music etc. In fact I wonder if Hugh Hefner is in fact a secret Muslim, given the fact that he is living now on earth, like Muslim hope to live like when they get to heaven. It is puzzling why Muslims forbid wine, booze and alcoholic drinks now, but they will be permitted in heaven.

On a serious note tell me, in your opinion what will the God of Islam do with the wicked? What will he do with Azazel aka Iblis? Is there a final judgement?

I will eventually explain God's ways after you have sufficient time to explain how the Father's unconstitutional love relate to Him making that wonderful sandbox He call hell.

For the things you posted above, similar to how I show the Biblical passages that I comment on, please show the Qur'anic passage that says that Muslim men will get 72 virgins when they go to heaven.

Take your time but don't take forever.

All little on the unconditional love which I know is hard for you to understand. God’s love, as described in the Bible, is clearly unconditional in that His love is expressed toward the objects of His love that is, His people despite their disposition toward Him. In other words, God loves because it His nature to love (1 John 4:8), and that love moves Him toward benevolent action. The unconditional nature of God’s love is most clearly seen in the gospel. The gospel message is basically a story of divine rescue. As God considers the plight of His rebellious people, He determines to save them from their sin, and this determination is based on His love (Ephesians 1:4-5). Listen to the Apostle Paul’s words from his letter to the Romans:

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8).

Now to answer the question you keep bring up the question: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?...maybe not in those exact words but that's exactly what you are hinting at. Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will. That's the way He made us after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn’t send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn’t send His children to Hell because when we’re His children, we’re in the family of God. We’re born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We’re not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder and homosexuality; and we have them all cataloged and classified but there isn't one of them or even put them all together in one big hunk that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks" or, "because they believe not on me"?
 
It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, “God is love,” all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

ksazma posted:
I will eventually explain God's ways after you have sufficient time to explain how the Father's unconstitutional love relate to Him making that wonderful sandbox He call hell.

For the things you posted above, similar to how I show the Biblical passages that I comment on, please show the Qur'anic passage that says that Muslim men will get 72 virgins when they go to heaven.

Take your time but don't take forever.

Ah did I misunderstand the translation, is it "raisins" and not 72 virgins, is this contradiction? hmm.

Keith posted:
ksazma posted:

 

I will eventually explain God's ways after you have sufficient time to explain how the Father's unconstitutional love relate to Him making that wonderful sandbox He call hell.

For the things you posted above, similar to how I show the Biblical passages that I comment on, please show the Qur'anic passage that says that Muslim men will get 72 virgins when they go to heaven.

Take your time but don't take forever.

Ah did I misunderstand the translation, is it "raisins" and not 72 virgins, is this contradiction? hmm.

So I guess you didn't find that Qur'anic passage that says that Muslim men will get 72 virgins when they go to heaven right? Interestingly I am not surprised that you didn't have that passage to whip out when I asked for it. I figured already that you were just parroting what others say and too lazy to do your own research. That is deceitful for a person who claims to be religious. I on the other hand don't claim to be religious and in fact, there are countless statements from me that I am NOT religious. But what I do know is the matters that I comment on here. You unfortunately don't. My guess is that you are an overzealous person who is infatuated by religion and very gullible. Well, let me make it easy for you. There is no Qur'anic passage promising me 72 virgins when they get to heaven. There is no passage containing a passage for any raisin either so you should be careful where you graze since it seems that you can easily swallow up nonsense. You see I can show you Biblical passages where Jesus called people pigs, dogs and, swine, etc. Try doing that with the 72 virgins passage.

It is shameful for you that you wrote "ah did I misunderstood the translation" when clearly you haven't read that in the Qur'an much less misunderstood what you read.