Instead of cut an paste de banna cut an run.

Hope: The Anchor of the Soul

ksazma posted:

skeldon_man posted:

So Brother Keith, what is your real job? Are you a minister or a regular run of the mill 8 hour working guy?

We idrine gane. He nah like answering questions.

Morning fellows, do hope you had a wonderful weekend as I did. As mention before weekends are family time for me. I don't spend my time on forum on weekends. I work a regular 8am-4:30pm job and I am not a minister.

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

skeldon_man posted:

So Brother Keith, what is your real job? Are you a minister or a regular run of the mill 8 hour working guy?

We idrine gane. He nah like answering questions.

Morning fellows, do hope you had a wonderful weekend as I did. As mention before weekends are family time for me. I don't spend my time on forum on weekends. I work a regular 8am-4:30pm job and I am not a minister.

Thanks brother Keith. Family is very important.

A Living Hope

Abraham’s Lesson on Obedience

Whenever a man and woman have sex resulting in the birth of a child, they become father and mother of that child. Nothing complicated about that. Therefore at no point during Ishmael's life was Abraham NOT the father of Ishmael. It is crazy for the Bible to suggest that Isaac was Abraham's ONLY son since Ishmael was already some 14 years at the time of Isaac's birth. The Bible suggesting that God said "take your son, your only son, Isaac" means only one of two things. Either the Bible is confused or God is.

Anyone who questions Abraham's faith needs to have their head examined. For a Christian to do so is ironic given that Abraham's faith in God was greater than Jesus' was. Abraham never asked God why He has forsaken him.

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46 - King James Version

Abraham did not just bear a child with Hagar. He married her first. Therefore, his child with Hagar was legitimate. There is not another person mentioned in the Bible, including Jesus who can get anywhere near the relationship that Abraham has with God. Who else would migrate his wife and infant child to a desert land because he was directed by God to do so. Who else would be willing to kill his ONLY son Ishmael who he got at the advanced age of 86 when he was 99 years old and Ismael was just 13. (And yes, this event took place the year BEFORE Isaac was born). The person who did those things is Abraham, the true friend of God, the most impressive person mentioned in the Bible.

Abraham’s Test

If Abraham was going to kill Isaac with God hoping to make him think that he will not have all those descendants, then Abraham outsmarted God because he still had a living son Ishmael who can provide those descendants. Looks like Abraham is smarter than God. Or it is more like the writers of the Bible are confused. To repeat, at no time was Isaac Abraham's ONLY son because Ishmael was alive and about 14 years when Isaac was born.

Service Is Not an Option

ksazma posted:

If Abraham was going to kill Isaac with God hoping to make him think that he will not have all those descendants, then Abraham outsmarted God because he still had a living son Ishmael who can provide those descendants. Looks like Abraham is smarter than God. Or it is more like the writers of the Bible are confused. To repeat, at no time was Isaac Abraham's ONLY son because Ishmael was alive and about 14 years when Isaac was born.

Answer: Ok, let me address this only ONCE you have repeatedly attack the Bible by saying it was full of contradictions. As I always emphasizes in many of our previous discussion, READ and UNDERSTAND what you are reading.

Let’s look it up, because the way you stated it looks like a contradiction. It is true that Ishmael was Isaac’s older brother [Genesis 16:11], but I would rather see what the Bible actually says.

ksazma hope you are not offended that I didn’t take your word for it. And besides, for the others looking in on this discussion, this is a good lesson in itself. Why trust what someone says God says, when we can easily read God’s Word for ourselves?

Let's look at Genesis 22 and read:

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

I don't see a contradiction here, since the Bible says Abraham had only one son that he loved. Ah, alright, I assume you are thinking I am playing with words right.....lets just go with that assumption for a minute.

Here is where the old meets the new or is it the new align with the old testament books.....Are we awake, pay close attention now. Look at Hebrew 11:17-19:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

The passage in Hebrews qualifies the "only son" concept as well. Isaac was the only begotten (i.e., unique, special) son of Abraham. Isaac was indeed unique and special in that he was the promised son through whom Jesus Christ, the Messiah, would come (Genesis 17:19–21).

Similarly, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16), even though others are called the sons of God (e.g., Adam in Luke 3:38 and Christians in Galatians 3:26). Jesus is the only unique and special Son of God, God who became a man.

This brings up another answer to the alleged contradiction. The Hebrew word used for "only" is yachiyd, which means "unique" or "only begotten" (special). So the Hebrew clarifies that Isaac is indeed the special, unique, only begotten son of Abraham. Isaac was the son of promise. So this answers the alleged contradiction.

Sometimes we miss the obvious answer as well. In the previous chapter (Genesis 21), Ishmael was sent away. So in chapter 22, Isaac was Abraham’s only son, for his other had gone away, presumably never to return under Abraham’s household. So this is another plausible solution to the alleged contradiction. Also, once Isaac had grown and Sarah had died, Abraham married Keturah, and they had six sons together (Genesis 25:1–2).

Let’s briefly go back to my initial answer. Did Abraham not love Ishmael? It’s true that he listened to Sarah and sent Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, away. But Abraham was originally distressed by this plan. God told him, "Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the bondwoman, because he is your seed" (Genesis 21:12–13). This was the second time God had promised Abraham that Ishmael would be blessed. In the first instance, Abraham asked God to make Ishmael the son of promise (Genesis 17:18–20). So it seems very likely that Abraham did love Ishmael and that my initial response was inaccurate.

Conclusion: For my follow Christian brothers & sisters who are reading this post, this answer highlights two important practices in dealing with the alleged contradictions in Scripture. First, make sure you take the time to read the relevant passages to make sure the one making the charge is accurately quoting the Bible. I did that in this instance. Second, remember that you don’t have to answer right away, especially if you haven’t studied the subject before. It is crucial to take the time to explore the Scriptures so you can give an accurate response. There is no contradiction about the number of Abraham’s sons.

Have a wonderful weekend everyone. Obey God and leave all consequences to Him.

So God incited Abraham to abandon his older son, Ishmael?

antabanta posted:

So God incited Abraham to abandon his older son, Ishmael?

I don't think Abraham ever abandoned Ishmael. Much to Keith's disappointment the Bible is not the only source of information. There are references to Abraham spending lots of time with Hager and Ishmael during Ishmael's lifetime including when Ishmael was grown and married. Religious peoples like to talk about miracles they read about in old books. Now while the origin of the zam zam well is written in old books and is open to discussion, if one was to acknowledge that it began as a water source for baby Ishmael, then that miracle is still available and can be seen with the physical eyes some 9000 years later.

Bai Keith, you really did some somersaults around that question. But the part that really got my attention is when you stated that God told Abraham that he, Abraham only loved Isaac. However, by the time you got to the end of your response you admitted that Abraham loved Ishmael too. So how come you know this but God didn't when He told Abraham that he, Abraham didn't love Ishmael.

For the record, the Bible stated that the family rift came about because Sarah became jealous of Hagar. Hard for Sarah to be jealous of Hagar if Abraham didn't think highly of Hagar. There is also a reference to her being upset with Ishmael. Here again it shows God's terrible judgment in blessing Sarah with the coveted covenant in-spite of her horrible disposition.

The reality is that the circumstances are not as described in the Bible. I doubt Abraham had both women living in the same space.

ksazma posted:

Bai Keith, you really did some somersaults around that question. But the part that really got my attention is when you stated that God told Abraham that he, Abraham only loved Isaac. However, by the time you got to the end of your response you admitted that Abraham loved Ishmael too. So how come you know this but God didn't when He told Abraham that he, Abraham didn't love Ishmael.

For the record, the Bible stated that the family rift came about because Sarah became jealous of Hagar. Hard for Sarah to be jealous of Hagar if Abraham didn't think highly of Hagar. There is also a reference to her being upset with Ishmael. Here again it shows God's terrible judgment in blessing Sarah with the coveted covenant in-spite of her horrible disposition.

The reality is that the circumstances are not as described in the Bible. I doubt Abraham had both women living in the same space.

My brother where did I mention what was highlighted above? I have resented the Genesis 22:2 scripture in its entirety, what is your understanding of that same scripture?

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

Bai Keith, you really did some somersaults around that question. But the part that really got my attention is when you stated that God told Abraham that he, Abraham only loved Isaac. However, by the time you got to the end of your response you admitted that Abraham loved Ishmael too. So how come you know this but God didn't when He told Abraham that he, Abraham didn't love Ishmael.

For the record, the Bible stated that the family rift came about because Sarah became jealous of Hagar. Hard for Sarah to be jealous of Hagar if Abraham didn't think highly of Hagar. There is also a reference to her being upset with Ishmael. Here again it shows God's terrible judgment in blessing Sarah with the coveted covenant in-spite of her horrible disposition.

The reality is that the circumstances are not as described in the Bible. I doubt Abraham had both women living in the same space.

My brother where did I mention what was highlighted above? I have resented the Genesis 22:2 scripture in its entirety, what is your understanding of that same scripture?

This is what you wrote above. Perhaps you don't want to use this argument anymore.  Who was speaking to Abraham in Genesis 22:2?

Let's look at Genesis 22 and read:

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

Keith posted:

 

 

I have resented the Genesis 22:2 scripture in its entirety, what is your understanding of that same scripture?

Either Moses (who wrote Genesis) is confused or God is.

Incidentally, although people generally believe that Moses wrote these five books, Bible scholars have come to accept that parts were written by others, more predominantly, Ezra.

ksazma posted:

antabanta posted:

So God incited Abraham to abandon his older son, Ishmael?

I don't think Abraham ever abandoned Ishmael. Much to Keith's disappointment the Bible is not the only source of information. There are references to Abraham spending lots of time with Hager and Ishmael during Ishmael's lifetime including when Ishmael was grown and married. Religious peoples like to talk about miracles they read about in old books. Now while the origin of the zam zam well is written in old books and is open to discussion, if one was to acknowledge that it began as a water source for baby Ishmael, then that miracle is still available and can be seen with the physical eyes some 9000 years later.

But why would a benevolent god instigate a rift in an innocent man's family?

antabanta posted:

ksazma posted:

antabanta posted:

So God incited Abraham to abandon his older son, Ishmael?

I don't think Abraham ever abandoned Ishmael. Much to Keith's disappointment the Bible is not the only source of information. There are references to Abraham spending lots of time with Hager and Ishmael during Ishmael's lifetime including when Ishmael was grown and married. Religious peoples like to talk about miracles they read about in old books. Now while the origin of the zam zam well is written in old books and is open to discussion, if one was to acknowledge that it began as a water source for baby Ishmael, then that miracle is still available and can be seen with the physical eyes some 9000 years later.

But why would a benevolent god instigate a rift in an innocent man's family?

I don't think that the rift was instigated by God. There is scripture that rhetorically criticizes the Christians for judging Abraham by Moses' laws when those were not the prevailing laws during Abraham's time. Having only one wife was not the prevailing law/custom during Abraham's time so he did nothing wrong when he married Hagar and had his first child.

I don't accept the Bible's depiction of a jealous and vindictive Sarah. I think that is the Biblical writers or the historians of that time who sought to create a division between Abraham's first two sons so they can solidify their own history. I think it is much simpler. Abraham initially had two wives, Sarah who lived in Canaan and Hagar who lived in Mecca. There was no rift as men back then had many wives and the women accepted that condition.

That said, our actions are a product of our emotions, not God's actions. Even today, we have people who were once madly in love that later end up angrily killing each other. One day, we love our job and another day, we are bored or unhappy with it. Human emotions are constantly changing. I don't think that is a product of God.

Btw, I love hos the Bible referred to his third wife, kethura as wife and concubine in the same sentence. I think the writing pattern of the Bible give the impression of the end justifying the means.

Preparation Through Prayer

ksazma posted:

 

This is what you wrote above. Perhaps you don't want to use this argument anymore.  Who was speaking to Abraham in Genesis 22:2?

Let's look at Genesis 22 and read:

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

 What is your understanding of Genesis 22:2 scripture? Still waiting?
Incase you missed it

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

Do you recalled a man name Jacob, how many sons he has and which one he loved the most?

Ksaz... thank you for responding. I was hoping to get some lively debate with this Keith character but looks like my questions are below his level of intelligence.

antabanta posted:

Ksaz... thank you for responding. I was hoping to get some lively debate with this Keith character but looks like my questions are below his level of intelligence.

Anta, of recent I have begun looking at scriptures (including the Qur'an) as documents as opposed to words of God. I find that to be very beneficial.

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

 

This is what you wrote above. Perhaps you don't want to use this argument anymore.  Who was speaking to Abraham in Genesis 22:2?

Let's look at Genesis 22 and read:

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

 What is your understanding of Genesis 22:2 scripture? Still waiting?
Incase you missed it

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

The passage didn’t say exactly what you are claiming. Look at the phrase "whom you love" as a qualifier for "your only son." In other words, Isaac was the only son Abraham loved.

Do you recalled a man name Jacob, how many sons he has and which one he loved the most?

Dude, your reference above is supporting my argument. Did you think it was supporting yours.

Your problem Keith is that you get lost in those lengthy pieces that you post. You would be better off taking one item at a time. So let us revisit the issue of Abraham's first two sons. At the time of Abraham's attempted sacrifice, was Isaac Abraham's only son or was Ishmael Abraham's only son. Try a yes or no answer. You might just be amazed at how emancipated you will feel. Try it.

Another thing. How did we jump to Jacob when we didn't get past Abraham?

antabanta posted:

Ksaz... thank you for responding. I was hoping to get some lively debate with this Keith character but looks like my questions are below his level of intelligence.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't say any better, instead of wasting my time on your questions I could get my son, who's fit to answer your questions as you put it, 'way below my intellect'

Keith posted:

antabanta posted:

Ksaz... thank you for responding. I was hoping to get some lively debate with this Keith character but looks like my questions are below his level of intelligence.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't say any better, instead of wasting my time on your questions I could get my son, who's fit to answer your questions as you put it, 'way below my intellect'

It is my pleasure to provide you with the means to weasel out. When will your son be available? Hopefully he fell far from the tree and will display more courage.

Answer: This would be Conclusion on this topic. ksazma posed the question, "Was Isaac Abraham’s only son, yes/no?" Answering yes or no can be really misleading.

Now, was Ishmael a different kind of "son" than Isaac? It turns out he was, in a number of ways, pay close attention b/c I am not going to go back and forth with you on this topic.

1: - Isaac was the child God promised him, while Ishmael was the child he tried to have on his own, to fulfill God's promise himself

2:- Ishmael (like Abimelech,) was born of a concubine, and not by his father's own wife

3:- As a result, it was in Isaac that Abraham's descendants were to be named, read Genesis 21:12:

¹² And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So, was Ishmael Abraham's son? Yes! In one sense; according to the flesh. Was Isaac Abraham's "only son"? Yes! In another sense; according to the promise. Abraham's "only son" came by his only wife, according to God's only promise, and thus, it was only in Isaac that Abraham's descendants would be named. And incidentally, this is exactly the conclusion that a number of esteemed Biblical commentators have come to, e.g.:

"thine only son Isaac; for, though Ishmael was his son, he was a son by his maid, by his concubine, and not by his wife; Isaac was his only legitimate son, his only son by his lawful wife Sarah; the only son of the promise, his only son, in whom his seed was to be called."

Good day fellows, ready 2 Timothy 2:15, enjoy your day.

When Spiritual Passion Diminishes

Keith posted:

Answer: This would be Conclusion on this topic. ksazma posed the question, "Was Isaac Abraham’s only son, yes/no?" Answering yes or no can be really misleading.

Now, was Ishmael a different kind of "son" than Isaac? It turns out he was, in a number of ways, pay close attention b/c I am not going to go back and forth with you on this topic.

1: - Isaac was the child God promised him, while Ishmael was the child he tried to have on his own, to fulfill God's promise himself

2:- Ishmael (like Abimelech,) was born of a concubine, and not by his father's own wife

3:- As a result, it was in Isaac that Abraham's descendants were to be named, read Genesis 21:12:

¹² And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So, was Ishmael Abraham's son? Yes! In one sense; according to the flesh. Was Isaac Abraham's "only son"? Yes! In another sense; according to the promise. Abraham's "only son" came by his only wife, according to God's only promise, and thus, it was only in Isaac that Abraham's descendants would be named. And incidentally, this is exactly the conclusion that a number of esteemed Biblical commentators have come to, e.g.:

"thine only son Isaac; for, though Ishmael was his son, he was a son by his maid, by his concubine, and not by his wife; Isaac was his only legitimate son, his only son by his lawful wife Sarah; the only son of the promise, his only son, in whom his seed was to be called."

Good day fellows, ready 2 Timothy 2:15, enjoy your day.

 

Two questions before we continue. If Sarah and Hagar are so important to this issue, why are they referred throughout the Bible as Abraham's sons? According to Jewish law, children are direct descendants of their fathers as demonstrated by the two different genealogies of Jesus. The seed is from the father and the mother is basically just carrying the child. That is Jewish law.

Secondly, can a child be blessed with life without the act of God? My guess is that you will say no. Therefore God has to be confused to think that Ishmael did not come from Him. Or more like the writers of the Bible were confused. In their effort to deny a child his father, they made up stories that now don't stand the test of time. Unfortunately for them, they couldn't predict the coming of tools that would make searches easy. For people who like to go on and on about predictions, they are now forced to be tormented by modern day tools that expose all the mischiefs of the writers of the Bible.

Now that is logic. Not the nonsense about a child not being his father's child when it was his father's semen that brought him into this world.

Keith posted:

 

2 Timothy 1:1-11

Do you feel yourself growing cold toward the Lord? As His children, we can never lose our salvation, but it is possible for our spiritual passion to cool.

Today’s passage reveals that even Timothy experienced a decrease in his excitement for God. That’s why Paul wrote to him, encouraging the young pastor at Ephesus to fan the flame of his faith.

 

Interesting that Paul is here encouraging Timothy to fan the flame of his faith when even Jesus had serious issues with Paul as demonstrated in the following passage from Acts 26:14-15

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

I have also made a few other observation from the preceding passage. I once mentioned that the so-called God Jesus didn't know the season for fig fruits. From the above, he seem to not know that Paul's name is not Saul as he called him Saul twice in that passage. Secondly, here Gentle Jesus is calling people pricks. Similar to how he calls people dogs, swine, pigs, etc. Last, but not necessarily least is that Paul was not Jesus' friend. He was his enemy. He also wrote more than half the number of books of the New Testament. 14 of the 27 books. This idea of Christianity did not come from Jesus. It came from Paul in collusion with Italy and Greece. That explains why it is similar to Mithraism.

Rekindling the Fire

I have been following this topic and it's very informative and interesting however, I have seen the aggressiveness of an individual that reflects the same problems that plagued the world.

keith don't be intimidated by your aggressor.

God bless you.

ksazma posted:

Keith posted:

 

2 Timothy 1:1-11

Do you feel yourself growing cold toward the Lord? As His children, we can never lose our salvation, but it is possible for our spiritual passion to cool.

Today’s passage reveals that even Timothy experienced a decrease in his excitement for God. That’s why Paul wrote to him, encouraging the young pastor at Ephesus to fan the flame of his faith.

 

Interesting that Paul is here encouraging Timothy to fan the flame of his faith when even Jesus had serious issues with Paul as demonstrated in the following passage from Acts 26:14-15

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

I have also made a few other observation from the preceding passage. I once mentioned that the so-called God Jesus didn't know the season for fig fruits. From the above, he seem to not know that Paul's name is not Saul as he called him Saul twice in that passage. Secondly, here Gentle Jesus is calling people pricks. Similar to how he calls people dogs, swine, pigs, etc. Last, but not necessarily least is that Paul was not Jesus' friend. He was his enemy. He also wrote more than half the number of books of the New Testament. 14 of the 27 books. This idea of Christianity did not come from Jesus. It came from Paul in collusion with Italy and Greece. That explains why it is similar to Mithraism.

Understand the passage you are quoting, this was Saul a zealous Pharisee who intensely persecuted the followers of Jesus, he then became know as Paul and is regarded as one of the greatest apostle. Understand who was Saul before you understand the man Paul. Read the book of Acts.

Imran posted:

I have been following this topic and it's very informative and interesting however, I have seen the aggressiveness of an individual that reflects the same problems that plagued the world.

keith don't be intimidated by your aggressor.

God bless you.

Imran, thanks for the encouragement and most of the all the reminder, I deeply appreciated it.

Imran posted:

I have been following this topic and it's very informative and interesting however, I have seen the aggressiveness of an individual that reflects the same problems that plagued the world.

keith don't be intimidated by your aggressor.

God bless you.

Aren't you aggressive to Chief? By your own standard, doesn't that make you part of the problems that plague the world?

You may never care for it but education is indeed important.

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

Keith posted:

 

2 Timothy 1:1-11

Do you feel yourself growing cold toward the Lord? As His children, we can never lose our salvation, but it is possible for our spiritual passion to cool.

Today’s passage reveals that even Timothy experienced a decrease in his excitement for God. That’s why Paul wrote to him, encouraging the young pastor at Ephesus to fan the flame of his faith.

 

Interesting that Paul is here encouraging Timothy to fan the flame of his faith when even Jesus had serious issues with Paul as demonstrated in the following passage from Acts 26:14-15

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

I have also made a few other observation from the preceding passage. I once mentioned that the so-called God Jesus didn't know the season for fig fruits. From the above, he seem to not know that Paul's name is not Saul as he called him Saul twice in that passage. Secondly, here Gentle Jesus is calling people pricks. Similar to how he calls people dogs, swine, pigs, etc. Last, but not necessarily least is that Paul was not Jesus' friend. He was his enemy. He also wrote more than half the number of books of the New Testament. 14 of the 27 books. This idea of Christianity did not come from Jesus. It came from Paul in collusion with Italy and Greece. That explains why it is similar to Mithraism.

Understand the passage you are quoting, this was Saul a zealous Pharisee who intensely persecuted the followers of Jesus, he then became know as Paul and is regarded as one of the greatest apostle. Understand who was Saul before you understand the man Paul. Read the book of Acts.

Somehow even after Saul changed his name to Paul so he can hide who he was and deceive others, Jesus still didn't know that the scoundrel Saul had changed his name to Paul. Some kind of God Jesus is. There are two years old kids who had better knowledge than this Jesus dude,

ksazma posted:

Imran posted:

I have been following this topic and it's very informative and interesting however, I have seen the aggressiveness of an individual that reflects the same problems that plagued the world.

keith don't be intimidated by your aggressor.

God bless you.

Aren't you aggressive to Chief? By your own standard, doesn't that make you part of the problems that plague the world?

You may never care for it but education is indeed important.

Since the cap fits you by your admittance and you speaking of education ( Mr know all) you should broaden you knowledge on "education " since the subject of discussion is about God . And you would expect a more somber discussion .

The aggressive tone of your response compare to Keith , speaks for itself especially where religion is concern . 

BTW my aggressive responses  to Chief is calling him out.... and there are others on this forum who did the same like I did . 

Perhaps you missed where Keith stated that it was not a sermon. Therefore dissent should not be unexpected. As I mentioned earlier, education is a useful tool. Learn to appreciate it instead of getting bent out of shape because you can't handle the facts.

Imran posted:

 

 

Since the cap fits you by your admittance and you speaking of education ( Mr know all) you should broaden you knowledge on "education " since the subject of discussion is about God . And you would expect a more somber discussion .

The aggressive tone of your response compare to Keith , speaks for itself especially where religion is concern . 

 

 

You obviously don't know how God speaks so I can understand your haplessness. What is this expectation of a more somber discussion? Haven't you read where God promises people that their end would be of fire and brimstones? Haven't you read some of God's own words which I just repost? Here is how God speaks;

Ezekiel 23King James Version (KJV)

23 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

² Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

³ And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

⁴ And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

⁵ And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

⁶ Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

⁷ Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

⁸ Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

⁹ Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

¹⁰ These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

¹¹ And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

¹² She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

¹³ Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

¹⁴ And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

¹⁵ Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

¹⁶ And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.

¹⁷ And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

¹⁸ So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

¹⁹ Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

²⁰ For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

²¹ Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

²² Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

²³ The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.

²⁴ And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.

²⁵ And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

²⁶ They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

²⁷ Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.

²⁸ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:

²⁹ And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

³⁰ I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

³¹ Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.

³² Thus saith the Lord God; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.

³³ Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

³⁴ Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

³⁵ Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

³⁶ The Lord said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;

³⁷ That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

³⁸ Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

³⁹ For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.

⁴⁰ And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

⁴¹ And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.

⁴² And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.

⁴³ Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?

⁴⁴ Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

⁴⁵ And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

⁴⁶ For thus saith the Lord God; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

⁴⁷ And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

⁴⁸ Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.

⁴⁹ And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.

ksazma posted:

Imran posted:

 

 

Since the cap fits you by your admittance and you speaking of education ( Mr know all) you should broaden you knowledge on "education " since the subject of discussion is about God . And you would expect a more somber discussion .

The aggressive tone of your response compare to Keith , speaks for itself especially where religion is concern . 

 

 

You obviously don't know how God speaks so I can understand your haplessness. What is this expectation of a more somber discussion? Haven't you read where God promises people that their end would be of fire and brimstones? Haven't you read some of God's own words which I just repost? Here is how God speaks;

Ezekiel 23King James Version (KJV)

23 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

² Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

³ And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

⁴ And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

⁵ And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

⁶ Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

⁷ Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

⁸ Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

⁹ Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

¹⁰ These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

¹¹ And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

¹² She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

¹³ Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

¹⁴ And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

¹⁵ Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

¹⁶ And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.

¹⁷ And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

¹⁸ So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

¹⁹ Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

²⁰ For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

²¹ Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

²² Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

²³ The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.

²⁴ And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.

²⁵ And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

²⁶ They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

²⁷ Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.

²⁸ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:

²⁹ And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

³⁰ I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

³¹ Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.

³² Thus saith the Lord God; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.

³³ Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

³⁴ Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

³⁵ Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

³⁶ The Lord said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;

³⁷ That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

³⁸ Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

³⁹ For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.

⁴⁰ And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

⁴¹ And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.

⁴² And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.

⁴³ Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?

⁴⁴ Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

⁴⁵ And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

⁴⁶ For thus saith the Lord God; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

⁴⁷ And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

⁴⁸ Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.

⁴⁹ And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.

King James Version (KJV)