Document - Indian Immigration to British Guiana.

Django posted:

For those who are interested attached is document,great read for history.

Report on the Scheme for Indian Emmigration to British Guiana

Gilly,the reading brother will like this.

Just parked it in my Google Drive. Now reading THE SIEGE OF KRISHNAPUR by JG Farrell, about the 1857 sepoy rebellion in India.

Gilbakka posted:
Django posted:

For those who are interested attached is document,great read for history.

Report on the Scheme for Indian Emmigration to British Guiana

Gilly,the reading brother will like this.

Just parked it in my Google Drive. Now reading THE SIEGE OF KRISHNAPUR by JG Farrell, about the 1857 sepoy rebellion in India.

Attached is another,

Caribj should read this.

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seignet posted:

Caribj is not a reader of Indian history. His personal experience far outweighs whatever other may have to say.

Siege,

there were not much documents out there to read,so we depend on hearsay and some historians.

Thanks to the internet,I found lots of old documents on website of Gokhale Institute of Politics and Economics from India,will post some more or you guys can check it out,click  Digital Repository of

Ray posted:

looking for the history of Cotton Tree, WCB

 

You from that place?

Down the road is Rosignol. In 1948, Rosignol School only had up to Standard II. We had to continue on at Cotton Tree School for rest of the schooling. It was a good time during those years, we would run home from school for lunch and ran back. 

There were about ten of us, I was the only Indian. The group would wait by Johnny Shiek's Drug Store for each other before running back.

I seriously consider that run is responsible for the enjoyment of good health at this reasonable age. And I thank God that those chaps from Rosignol coaxed me into running home with them for lunch. 

A number of us lived at Fatman Logies.

seignet posted:

Caribj is not a reader of Indian history. His personal experience far outweighs whatever other may have to say.

I recall you were the one screaming that former slaves were given millions of pounds by the British gov't when they freed.  That must have been from one of the KKK books that you love to read.

In fact Indian indentures had redress in front of the courts and apparently made much use of this.  African slaves had no more rights in the courts than did horses or donkeys as they were seen as also being farm animals.

As bad as indentureship was it was considerably better than slavery.

seignet posted:
Ray posted:

looking for the history of Cotton Tree, WCB

 

You from that place?

Down the road is Rosignol. In 1948, Rosignol School only had up to Standard II. We had to continue on at Cotton Tree School for rest of the schooling. It was a good time during those years, we would run home from school for lunch and ran back. 

There were about ten of us, I was the only Indian. The group would wait by Johnny Shiek's Drug Store for each other before running back.

I seriously consider that run is responsible for the enjoyment of good health at this reasonable age. And I thank God that those chaps from Rosignol coaxed me into running home with them for lunch. 

A number of us lived at Fatman Logies.

Lots of my family from there. I am not 100% sure, but I think my great great grandfather bought Cotton Tree from the COlonists.

Nah, I not from there...but went there quite a few times

ALmost all my family from WCB, from ROsignal to Mahaica

caribny posted:
seignet posted:

Caribj is not a reader of Indian history. His personal experience far outweighs whatever other may have to say.

I recall you were the one screaming that former slaves were given millions of pounds by the British gov't when they freed.  That must have been from one of the KKK books that you love to read.

In fact Indian indentures had redress in front of the courts and apparently made much use of this.  African slaves had no more rights in the courts than did horses or donkeys as they were seen as also being farm animals.

As bad as indentureship was it was considerably better than slavery.

The same white ppl who fought for the end of slavery, also gave in the establishments of churches, schools, education supplies, teachers, etc, etc, etc. Maybe not millions of pounds(doan recall seying so, however I know you have imaginings) but what was given cost lots of money. And that effort made the Blacks into the Business Class until the Putagees rab alyuh of dat. The health sector, the teaching profession, police force, civil service etc, etc, all from th noble efforts of the abolitionists.

Until the Indians leff the plantations and the blacks educated them under the British Rule. Then Blacks start loosing dem jobs.

Under slavery, blacks had no rights.

More power to you today.  

I had expected some intelligent and/or constructive discussion in this thread. Django's purpose in making available the historical documents on Indian immigration to the Caribbean is to enlighten us and upgrade our knowledge of the indentured immigrants issue. Far from obtaining that objective, this thread has degenerated to the customary personal attacks, sterile racial tit-for-tat, and other unwholesome digressions. Sad. Pathetic. Tragic even.

Drugb posted:

Djangy, like yuh falling down pun de jab or what? You missing a lot of anti PNC articles recently. Like the Mahaica robbery, goat thief, Cancelled yacht trip, the David Patterson violation of procurement procedure and 13.5 million disappearing into thin air(pnc pockets).  

Duh is your job,take over.

I am digging up history,looks like those days Africans and East Indians were getting along fine.

‘The world is a bridge. Pass over it but do not build a house on it.’ (From THE SIEGE OF KRISHNAPUR)

When we die our house says: "you go. I-house staying right here."

And Guyana says: "you all coolies and blackman can murder mattie. Me Guyana will stay beautiful and green forever."

Gilbakka posted:

‘The world is a bridge. Pass over it but do not build a house on it.’ (From THE SIEGE OF KRISHNAPUR)

When we die our house says: "you go. I-house staying right here."

And Guyana says: "you all coolies and blackman can murder mattie. Me Guyana will stay beautiful and green forever."

Gilly, I tell my wife that when she says we should move to a warmer climate.

seignet posted:
ery.

The same white ppl who fought for the end of slavery, also gave in the establishments of churches, schools, education supplies, teachers, etc, etc, etc. Maybe not millions of pounds(doan recall seying so, however I know you have imaginings) but what was given cost lots of money. And that effort made the Blacks into the Business Class until the Putagees rab alyuh of dat. The health sector, the teaching profession, police force, civil service etc, etc, all from th noble efforts of the abolitionists.

Until the Indians leff the plantations and the blacks educated them under the British Rule. Then Blacks start loosing dem jobs.

Under slavery, blacks had no rights.

More power to you today.  

1.  Slavery didn't end because white people became nice.  It ended because the new industrial elites which emerged out of the Industrial Revolution wanted to destroy the old aristocracy whose wealth came out of the British West Indian sugar plantations.  Ending slavery followed by ending protection for British West Indian sugar against cheap slave grown Cuban and Brazilian sugar bankrupted the old aristocracy paving the way for a new elite.

2.  If these "charitable whites" so "cared" about the blacks they would have compensated them and provided access to good quality farm lands.  Throughout the British West Indies the colonial authorities did their best to undermine the efforts of the former slaves to be viable.

3.  The educational system was set up using the efforts of these former slaves.  From the beginning almost all of the teachers were blacks.  Former slaves demanded access to education and the churches aided their efforts in order to encourage them to join these denominations. The planters were hostile to educating blacks and in fact ridiculed educated blacks.  Their dogma was "to educate a ni99er is to unfit him to be a slave".  In fact to escape poverty education was seen as vital by the former slaves. which is why they achieved very high levels of basic literacy by the late 19thC. 

4.  The missionaries who arrived in Guyana in the late days of slavery were harassed and in some instances even killed by the British colonial authorities.  They were blamed for the slave rebellions which occurred in the 1820s.  It was these educated slaves who provided the first wave of teachers.

5.  The Portuguese were notorious for robbing Indian indentures and in fact encouraged the excessive use of rum that even now still remains a scourge among rural Indians, especially those on the estates.  The Portuguese despised Indians who they saw as losers for remaining on the estates instead of moving forward as they had.

 

Gilly,

question for you have you read any info about the Indian Colonization Scheme of British Guiana proposed by Luckhoo and Nunan.

I found the Proposal and the Indian Report,shortly after the proposal was squashed,the British scrapped the ancient Constitution and institute the 1928 Constitution,also i read British Guiana was ahead of the other colonies in the West Indies for self government.

Want to send it privately,your messenger is blocked.

Django posted:

Gilly,

question for you have you read any info about the Indian Colonization Scheme of British Guiana proposed by Luckhoo and Nunan.

 

MH in his article alludes to this.  So we had British Guiana, then under the control of the sugar barons and the British colonial authorities, who squeezed out the emerging black and colored middle class from any involvement in the governance of the colony. And while all this is happening an immigrant arrives and announces plans to colonize the country.

So I guess the idea was that the blacks and coloreds would have had two masters, one of them being a newly arrived immigrant group who had no committed to the country at the time. Indentures had the right of return and quite a few in fact did exercise that right.

skeldon_man posted:
Gilbakka posted:

‘The world is a bridge. Pass over it but do not build a house on it.’ (From THE SIEGE OF KRISHNAPUR)

When we die our house says: "you go. I-house staying right here."

And Guyana says: "you all coolies and blackman can murder mattie. Me Guyana will stay beautiful and green forever."

Gilly, I tell my wife that when she says we should move to a warmer climate.

You and she live in an igloo?

Django posted:

Gilly,

question for you have you read any info about the Indian Colonization Scheme of British Guiana proposed by Luckhoo and Nunan.

I found the Proposal and the Indian Report,shortly after the proposal was squashed,the British scrapped the ancient Constitution and institute the 1928 Constitution,also i read British Guiana was ahead of the other colonies in the West Indies for self government.

Want to send it privately,your messenger is blocked.

Some time ago I read about the Luckhoo-Nunan scheme, but just a passing reference in some article or academic paper. Can't remember exactly.

I blocked my PM to stop your unsolicited poosooring.

caribny posted:
Django posted:

Gilly,

question for you have you read any info about the Indian Colonization Scheme of British Guiana proposed by Luckhoo and Nunan.

 

MH in his article alludes to this.  So we had British Guiana, then under the control of the sugar barons and the British colonial authorities, who squeezed out the emerging black and colored middle class from any involvement in the governance of the colony. And while all this is happening an immigrant arrives and announces plans to colonize the country.

So I guess the idea was that the blacks and coloreds would have had two masters, one of them being a newly arrived immigrant group who had no committed to the country at the time. Indentures had the right of return and quite a few in fact did exercise that right.

The Luckhoos been in Britiland sh Guiana for very long time and they excelled under the British Empire which was the umbrella for all colonial ppl. Blacks and Coloreds monarchists were far more in numbers in BG  than East Indian ones . They had no quarrels with British Rule in BG. Unlike the East Indians who rebelled for decades for harsh labour treatment. And not to mention, the British were to be booted out of India. Unforgiven according to Churchill.

India exports people, the continent is widely known for that fact. Strange though, Indians were forbidden to travel outside of the Bramaputra and Ganges yet the castes lower than the Brahmins boarded the ships. And those ships took them where they were needed. The world was British at the time and the sun never sets on Britania. No native on the planet had owning rights-being white is right.

Every native lands were white owned and they recruited their own kind to populate. Anybody else were servants.

The Amerindians lost their native rights, owner of their lands in Guiana.

Suh, where does the Blacks and Coloreds gat the notion they owned the Amerindain lands-thieves or bullies.

Luckhoo just gat the idea to bring more Indians out of India to ease the famine victims. Today, we call dem refugees. 

Sick minds think it was a racists move. I doubt whether Luckhoo and Nunan thought about Independence. If wasn't for Forbes an Cheddie I doan tink the British would have parted wid BG.

Under the British Empire, it subjects are not Aliens in their colonies, they were free to stay or move on to another British Colony.

Blacks need to know their place with respect to their citizenship under the British Empire. His right are no different than an Amerindian or any race of ppl who found themselves in British Guiana.

The idea that Blacks owned Guyana is absurd. Why would Eric Philips want a share of land now.

 

 

 

caribny posted:
Django posted:

Gilly,

question for you have you read any info about the Indian Colonization Scheme of British Guiana proposed by Luckhoo and Nunan.

 

MH in his article alludes to this.  So we had British Guiana, then under the control of the sugar barons and the British colonial authorities, who squeezed out the emerging black and colored middle class from any involvement in the governance of the colony. And while all this is happening an immigrant arrives and announces plans to colonize the country.

So I guess the idea was that the blacks and coloreds would have had two masters, one of them being a newly arrived immigrant group who had no committed to the country at the time. Indentures had the right of return and quite a few in fact did exercise that right.

It's an interesting read Caribj,the report gave a lot of detail on British Guiana during that period.

I tried uploading on this thread,getting error,will try again.

seignet posted:

Suh, where does the Blacks and Coloreds gat the notion they owned the .

 

 

 

I can only wonder about your rant about blacks thinking that they owned BG.  They barely had representation in the governance of the country.

1. The vast majority didn't own sufficient property to vote.

2. Even as blacks and colored became 45% of the then limited voting population the constitution was changed to limit the ability of the population to vote for candidates in the LegCo.  BG was owned by and run by the plantocracy and the colonial authorities.  The black and colored middle class were struggling to have input in the running of the country.

3.  The Indian rights people wanted to increase the numbers of Indians in the colony because their goal was to create a de facto Indian colony. Did they try to negotiate with the black/colored middle class who were then struggling to have input in running the colony? No.  Their notion was for  the Indian population exceeded that of the rest of the population.

4.  There is no country in the world where any native population wants to be displaced by an immigrant population and when an immigrant/invading population tries to do so then they will encounter resistance. 

5. Those who advocated Indian rights should have joined forces with those who advocated improved conditions for the black and colored populations.  They did NOT do so.  They saw a Guyana where they would negotiate directly with the British colonial authorities.  It is all there in MH's analysis though he is an Indianist who doesn't think that non Indians should have any rights in Guyana, so he is unable to see this.  You condemn Eric Phillips but celebrate him when both have an ethnocentric focus in a land where no ethnic group can ever be dominant.

seignet posted

 

 

Blacks need to know their place with respect to their citizenship under the British Empire. 

 

 

 

 

Yes in your eyes their place was to submit to white British colonial rule and then be pushed aside by a group of immigrants who wanted no part of them, but who in fact wanted to REPLACE them!  

 

caribny posted:
seignet posted

 

 

Blacks need to know their place with respect to their citizenship under the British Empire. 

Yes in your eyes their place was to submit to white British colonial rule and then be pushed aside by a group of immigrants who wanted no part of them, but who in fact wanted to REPLACE them!  

Shut yuh rass.  Why did you not stay and fight for your hard earned space there rather than coming to America and REPLACING someone else?

You bloody hypocrite!!

caribny posted:
seignet posted:

Suh, where does the Blacks and Coloreds gat the notion they owned the .

 

 

 

I can only wonder about your rant about blacks thinking that they owned BG.  They barely had representation in the governance of the country.

1. The vast majority didn't own sufficient property to vote.

2. Even as blacks and colored became 45% of the then limited voting population the constitution was changed to limit the ability of the population to vote for candidates in the LegCo.  BG was owned by and run by the plantocracy and the colonial authorities.  The black and colored middle class were struggling to have input in the running of the country.

3.  The Indian rights people wanted to increase the numbers of Indians in the colony because their goal was to create a de facto Indian colony. Did they try to negotiate with the black/colored middle class who were then struggling to have input in running the colony? No.  Their notion was for  the Indian population exceeded that of the rest of the population.

4.  There is no country in the world where any native population wants to be displaced by an immigrant population and when an immigrant/invading population tries to do so then they will encounter resistance. 

5. Those who advocated Indian rights should have joined forces with those who advocated improved conditions for the black and colored populations.  They did NOT do so.  They saw a Guyana where they would negotiate directly with the British colonial authorities.  It is all there in MH's analysis though he is an Indianist who doesn't think that non Indians should have any rights in Guyana, so he is unable to see this.  You condemn Eric Phillips but celebrate him when both have an ethnocentric focus in a land where no ethnic group can ever be dominant.

In 1919, your foreparents were not Guianese, they were British Subjects. 

Again, your foreparents were not natives to Guiana, they were foreigners. As we love to say today of America, a place of immigrants. So is Guyana.

Indians were fighting for their rights on the planations since 1838. Blacks din care for them being there by your admission.

After emancipation Blacks had everything in the colony and coloreds with the putagees had them.

In 1967, I stopped off at Enmore on my way to Atkinson Airfield-out of Guiana. Old folks from Albion Front met up with old folks from Enmore-the Madrassie Connection. The first time I would here about the plans to bring more Indians for the Baccra man estates. The discussion was not a favorable one for the Luckhoos-they thought he was more interested in himself and British Connections. Apparently, the Luckhoo brothers came from Tamil Nadu and assigned to Albion/Port Mourant. They rose fast due to a British education back in the Madrass Presidency.

If anything, Luckhoo had to convince the Indian Civil Serrvice and not the British Government. The Indian Civil Service had discontined Indentureship in 1917. And previously in1842, they blocked it because of the harsh treatment meeted out to that first group.

Uninterrupted decades of labour from India came to abrupt end. Luckhoo saw an opportunity-the genius of the family.

Luckhoo was hoping for colonists, just like the Dutch, the French or the British Planters. 

And yuh see a racist at a time when there was only white racism. Maybe, blacks knew of racsim back them.

Baseman poste 

 

 

Shut yuh rass.  Why did you not stay and fight for your hard earned space there rather than coming to America and REPLACING someone else?

You bloody hypocrite!!

You see unlike you I didn't come to the USA to toss out those who live here.  I came to fit into their society.  That is what immigrants do. 

Pity the architects of Indian identity in Guyana arrived with the notion of pushing out people who had been present centuries before their arrival.

 

seignet posted:

I

Luckhoo was hoping for colonists, just like the Dutch, the French or the British Planters. 

And yuh see a racist at a time when there was only white racism. Maybe, blacks knew of racsim back them.

If all he wanted was colonists who could have gotten them more cheaply from over crowded islands like Barbados and Jamaica. I bet if recruited the Jamaicans would have preferred to go to another British colony than to take the risk of going to places like Costa Rica, Panama and Cuba.

But that was NOT Luckhoo's interest. He didn't want more colonists. He wanted MORE INDIANS.  His motivations were POLITICAL.  It was about the domination of Guyana by Indians.

 

Based on your thinking when the West Indians arrived in the UK in 1948 they should have arrived with the notion of pushing out the local British, because after all they were "British subjects".

Luckhoo and company begged the Indian gov't not to bar indenture because they wanted the Indian population to outstrip the black and colored population.  This because they wanted BG to become a colony dominated by Indians.  They didn't care about the fate of these people and the deplorable conditions many of them lived. 

At no point in all of this was there any mention of negotiating with the black/colored populations in order to improve for all nonwhite peoples in BG.  No he saw them as competitors.

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