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FM
Former Member

Ok Folks,

Guyana can end it's racial strife in 2020.

Here is how:

1. Respect for others races.

2. Appreciation of each others race and culture.

handshake 2.40.32 PM

3. Vote PPP

4. Never vote for the PNC again.

5. Make it mandatory for courses in Race relations at all levels of     Education in Guyana.

Yuji (GNI's Most respected Poster)

Please add suggestions as we look forward to a change in direction in 2020.

 

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D2 posted:
cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

he he heeeee!

I have to stop laughing for a minute in order to write this comment. Most appropriate after a long day.

Cain, do you have a dictionary of phrases, or an advisory committee to assist with these classical and  appropriate comments ?

Bro, you are one of a kind.

Dogs with rabies goes to quarantine. Is that toothpaste or frothing at the mouth ?

Tola
Tola posted:
D2 posted:
cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

he he heeeee!

I have to stop laughing for a minute in order to write this comment. Most appropriate after a long day.

Cain, do you have a dictionary of phrases, or an advisory committee to assist with these classical and  appropriate comments ?

Bro, you are one of a kind.

Dogs with rabies goes to quarantine. Is that toothpaste or frothing at the mouth ?

The situation of East Indians and Douglas in Guyana is no laughing matter. An East Indian in North America can safely laugh. An East Indian in North America can talk safely about racist Indians. Their traitor brown behinds are safe with laws and law enforcement protecting their traitor brown backsides..

Prashad
yuji22 posted:

Ok Folks,

Guyana can end it's racial strife in 2020.

Here is how:

1. Respect for others races.

2. Appreciation of each others race and culture.

handshake 2.40.32 PM

3. Vote PPP

4. Never vote for the PNC again.

5. Make it mandatory for courses in Race relations at all levels of     Education in Guyana.

Yuji (GNI's Most respected Poster)

Please add suggestions as we look forward to a change in direction in 2020.

 

 

FM
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

Billy Ram Balgobin
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

If you read Edgar Mittelholzer's book on British Guiana society then it does prove that Dr. Odeen has a point.  My view of the issue is two-fold that experiences from colonialism has brainwashed people into the belief that the East Indian is a subhuman individual but most importantly the experiences from colonialism has grounded in people in an unbreakable belief that they should only be ruled by their own race. 

Prashad
Last edited by Prashad
Prashad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

If you read Edgar Mittelholzer's book on British Guiana society then it does prove that Dr. Odeen has a point.  My view of the issue is two-fold that experiences from colonialism has brainwashed people into the belief that the East Indian is a subhuman individual but most importantly the experiences from colonialism has grounded in people in an unbreakable belief that they should only be ruled by their own race. 

I went to school in Guyana and I experienced racism at the hands of Afros. If I say I did not I will be lying. 

Billy Ram Balgobin
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

Similar situation in all the former colonies not just British Colonies. In Haiti the lighter skinned or mixed race were given the civil jobs. Same thing in Rwanda with the Hutu and Tutsi. Colonial powers favored one race/group to control the other. We are too blind and stupid to see it and then it's too late.

GTAngler
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Prashad, seek help.  For every bit of inhumanity that SOME blacks have directed to Indians SOME Indians have directed towards blacks and douglas. MANY douglas can tell you of how their Indian mothers were disowned by their parents. Look at how the Indo KKK thinks that accusing some one of having black relatives is an insult.

Blacks see nothing wrong with "douglarization". Many Indians see it as "contaminating" "pure" Indian blood with the "vile" blood of the African.  Cobra went into deep mourning when a relative of his married a black person and this was made public on GNI.  Yuji being equally bad.

FM
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
 

I went to school in Guyana and I experienced racism at the hands of Afros. If I say I did not I will be lying. 

And many of those Afros have their own narrative of being discriminated against by Indians, so your point?  It is an established fact that neither Africans nor Indians care much for each other.

FM
Prashad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
Prashad posted:

When people are brainwashed in society from the time that they were young to see the koolie as a subhuman inferior then the institutions of society just become a continuation.

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

If you read Edgar Mittelholzer's book on British Guiana society then it does prove that Dr. Odeen has a point.  My view of the issue is two-fold that experiences from colonialism has brainwashed people into the belief that the East Indian is a subhuman individual but most importantly the experiences from colonialism has grounded in people in an unbreakable belief that they should only be ruled by their own race. 

This is where you display your own ignorance. In fact Mittelholzer was a "red man" who despised his African ancestry and allegedly committed suicide because of this.

In Colonial British Guiana expat whites were on top, with local whites below them, followed by Portuguese and then Chinese and light skinned CHRISTIAN Indians (the Luckhoos) and light skinned red people.  Then came the brown while blacks and Indians were at the BOTTOM.  Amerindians weren't even considered fully human so weren't part of society.

Blacks occupied lower level civil service positions, teaching, nursing, trades, and the lower ranks of the police force. For any one to claim that they were the favored ones is pure bullshyte.  The British played divide and rule. 

They allowed the blacks lower level civil servant jobs and destroyed their villages and farming and small business base as they didn't want them to be independent. They allowed Indians easier access to land but put in lace barriers for non Christians to enter the civil service, so those Indians who refused to convert and who refused to assimilate were excluded.

Bottom line is that those Indians willing to convert and who were light skinned received privileges and were as derisive of blacks as were the other privileged groups. They were EQUALLY derisive towards less assimilated Indians, especially those who remained Hindus.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
 

Dr. Odeen Ishmael shared his experience about how Indians were viewed and treated in British Guiana.  He said the Africans felt socially superior to the Indians because they were educated according English standards and were employed in the civil service.

Is he right?

And Indians felt superior to blacks as they have straight hair, and usually lighter in skin color, and often with more Caucasoid features. These features being highly prized during the colonial era.  This is why Indians used a term derived from the Hindi word for bastard to describe some one of mixed Indian and black ancestry.

Your point?  You know you aren't going to be allowed to peddle the lie that only blacks are racist while I am still around.

FM

I have proven something in this post which proves my point that Guyana should make it mandatory to have race relations at all levels of the education system.

No one has provided any solutions. 

The same old talk about the problems without solutions. Zero.

SMH.

Carib wants racial tension to remain otherwise he becomes irrelevant. 

I am pushing for a solution but it may appear that Guyanese of ALL races do not want a solution and GNI is a clear reflection of the problem. These posts are a reflection of that mentality.

FM
yuji22 posted:

I have proven something in this post which proves my point that Guyana should make it mandatory to have race relations at all levels of the education system.

No one has provided any solutions. 

 

I am pushing for a solution but it may appear that Guyanese of ALL races do not want a solution and GNI is a clear reflection of the problem. These posts are a reflection of that mentality.

Actually, from your starting post on this topic, I gather you want Guyana to end its racial problems in 2020 only on Indian/PPP terms. Your prescription: 

"3. Vote PPP

4. Never vote for the PNC again."

It is axiomatic that Indians are the PPP's electoral stronghold and Blacks are the PNC's electoral stronghold. Your points 3 and 4 have shot down your push for a solution, massa.

Push again, but this time for an all-embracing national non-discriminatory solution.

FM
Gilbakka posted:
yuji22 posted:

I have proven something in this post which proves my point that Guyana should make it mandatory to have race relations at all levels of the education system.

No one has provided any solutions. 

 

I am pushing for a solution but it may appear that Guyanese of ALL races do not want a solution and GNI is a clear reflection of the problem. These posts are a reflection of that mentality.

Actually, from your starting post on this topic, I gather you want Guyana to end its racial problems in 2020 only on Indian/PPP terms. Your prescription: 

"3. Vote PPP

4. Never vote for the PNC again."

It is axiomatic that Indians are the PPP's electoral stronghold and Blacks are the PNC's electoral stronghold. Your points 3 and 4 have shot down your push for a solution, massa.

Push again, but this time for an all-embracing national non-discriminatory solution.

Bhai

I politely disagree. The PNC has damaged race relations to a point where the country is even more polarized and the level of mistrust is at an all time high.

The PPP is now reaching out to blacks and it appears that the PPP will ensure that blacks are an equal partner in 2020. A win win for Guyana and the PPP.

My comment about not voting for the PNC again is not in any way inaccurate since you and I have seen what they are capable of doing.

In fact, it would be best for Blacks to form another party (Like Moses did to the PPP) to foster their interests and have a bigger say in the PPP government.

Times are changing, we are in for a big surprise as the PPP is poised for another majority. This is the best opportunity to start reaching out to Blacks ahead of 2020. It is all about planning and timing in politics.

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician. 

 

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
yuji22 posted:
Django posted:
yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Yes, but the AFC/PNC too has no interest in changing it. 

Both party not interested,the people need to protest.

Presidential Powers should be limited.

Django
Django posted:
yuji22 posted:
Django posted:
yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Yes, but the AFC/PNC too has no interest in changing it. 

Both party not interested,the people need to protest.

Presidential Powers should be limited.

I have to agree but until it is changed, it can be taken advantage of. That's politics.

The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
yuji22 posted: The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

Absolutely. One of the main planks in the APNU+AFC Manifesto was Constitutional Reform, especially as it relates to excessive powers of the President. Those crooks conned us. Wha me must call dem? Katahar? Gaddaha? Filth heads? There is no title in the GNI vocabulary to fit those deceitful people.

As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

FM
Gilbakka posted:
As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

I don't think he was unwilling...he just didn't see a need for it given his honesty and caring.  However, there is a reason why a person's historical significance is not written the day he/she dies. Jagan was very popular and well liked the day he died.  However, it turns out that he was a very poor leader and is a reason why we are in the situation we are in today.

The lack of constitutional reform and putting square pegs in round holes during his term mark his mediocre presidency.  He was a great, honest, knowledgeable man but a very poor leader.

Hey D2 - Please see if you could dig up the thread on Leadership also.  Too bad we lost these discussions if we did.

FM

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

Source

Dear Editor,

I read that the Carter Center and the University of Guyana will host a symposium on constitutional reform on Friday, March 31. It is my opinion that proportional representation (PR) and the list system have harmed race relations and the democratic process in Guyana by enabling racial mobilization and party dictatorship. The consequences have been ethnic division, a farce of a parliament, and a mockery of coalition politics.

Under our electoral system voters do not directly elect their members of parliament (MP). Rather we vote for a list of candidates that are fielded by the political parties and the political parties through the List of Representatives select the MPs. In reality the political bosses select the MPs. The MPs are not accountable to local constituencies but rather to the party. In Parliament the MP is not allowed to vote according to conscience but must toe the party line or risk being fired by the party. This most certainly is not parliamentary democracy but party dictatorship.

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines, so much so that today in 2017 we have entrenched racial blocs supporting both parties. There is no need for the parties to have good programmes and appeal to reason. It is much easier to appeal to race by subtle and sometimes crude language. There is no need for a candidate to work house to house in seeking the votes of all, irrespective of ethnicity as was the case when we had first past the post (FPTP) prior to 1964.

Post-1964 found that both major parties had embraced Socialist ideology which naturally inculcated dictatorship instincts in their leadership. Such dictatorial instincts spilled over to the Parliament where they literally opposed each other. No matter what the PNC proposed the PPP opposed and vice versa. There was never compromise. It was always about the majority party getting its way. The only time the PPP and PNC found common ground was to pass the Recall Bill which gave them legal ownership of the parliamentary seats and the power to fire dissenting MPs! It also effectively turned Parliament into a farce. All of this because of the list system.

The list system has essentially made a mockery of post-independence coalition politics, as coalitions must be formed before elections and they must also put up a common list with the List Represen-tative selecting the MPs. It means that no one party owns a seat or seats. A party cannot leave the coalition with its seats. If a party walks away the seats remain with the coalition. In such an arrangement the smaller parties are rendered impotent, unless they control the List Representa-tive, which would be most unlikely. So smaller parties must accept the dictates of the larger ones. In Guyana a coalition government simply cannot be brought down by a junior partner. This is totally different from real parliamentary democracies that adhere to the Westminster constitutions under which they all got at Independence.

All the functioning parliamentary democracies such as India, Barbados, Jamaica, and Trinidad and Tobago have one thing in common: They all kept the Westminster type constitutions that they got from the British. So my first recommendation is for Guyana to revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution, but I know the main parties would not do so.

My other recommendations are as follows: replace PR with FPTP thereby ending the list system; repeal the Recall Bill thereby enabling MPs to vote according to conscience; scrap the rule that disallows post-election coalitions thereby permitting post-election coalitions with every party having their own seats.

Yours faithfully,

Malcolm Harripaul

Django
Gilbakka posted:
yuji22 posted: The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

Absolutely. One of the main planks in the APNU+AFC Manifesto was Constitutional Reform, especially as it relates to excessive powers of the President. Those crooks conned us. Wha me must call dem? Katahar? Gaddaha? Filth heads? There is no title in the GNI vocabulary to fit those deceitful people.

As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

So why the AFC is no longer talking about constitutional reforms?  They seem to be in the role of dancing for the PNC instead of the PNC dancing for them.

Billy Ram Balgobin
yuji22 posted:

I have proven something in this post which proves my point that Guyana should make it mandatory to have race relations at all levels of the education system.

 

Guyanese aren't ignorant of each other.  And aside from a minority of Indo KKK racists like you, they don't hate one another either.

Now YOU need to be educated to the fact that blacks aren't lazy, criminal or useless and that it isn't the height of disgrace if a member of your family marries a suitable person who happens to be black. 

YOU need to be educated to the fact that racism has been practiced by both groups when they have power, and that both groups, and others have suffered.

YOU need to understand that Indians face criminal assault, not only from blacks, but increasingly from Indians as well.

Solution.

1. We need to listen to each other. If blacks tell you that Jagdeo is a racist and the PPP discriminated against blacks then you ought to listen. 

You never see me arguing with you about the racism of the PNC during the Burnham era. If the majority of Indians claim that they faced racism then they did. The fact that a small % enriched themselves with black market activities which arose when Burnham destroyed the economy is not relevant.

2.We need to identify ethnically based barriers to social and economic integration because this is what bothers people in 2017. They couldn't care less about the early 60s, or even the Burnham era.  Its those of us who migrated who still do.

3. We need to have a discussion about what Guyana is and understand that it is a multi ethnic, multi cultural and multi religious. We need to understand that not only is there this diversity but that most Guyanese incorporate elements of this WITHIN their daily lives. 

So those who debase creole culture and scream for India need to stop being ridiculous. India no longer sees you as one of them.  We all exist within various continuums of a diverse creolized culture, and we manifest this as we see relevant.  Changing depending on context.

4.  Guyanese need to cease to expect politicians to control their lives. It is up to civic society (trade unions, youth groups, business groups, civic groups like the Jaycees, religious groups, etc.) to mobilize the population and to communicate with the politicians their expectations of them. 

T&T is also diverse as Guyana and yet the sort of nonsense that Burnham, Jagdeo and now Harmon get up to would NEVER be allowed in that country, because the politicians know that civic society in T&T will NOT tolerate that.

Under Kamla one of her ministers refused to listen to a CAL cabin attendant who told him to turn off his cell phone. He "accidentally" brushed her breasts.  He was fired.

Under Jagdeo/Ramotar a minister pistol whips some one, another drives drunk and hits some one and yet another has a son who sexually assaulted some one, and then bribed a cop to cover this up. NOTHING happened!

I suggest that you stop worshipping a racist Jagdeo when the 29% of the population which is African and the 20% of the population which is mixed (many of these mixed identified individuals are people who you would call black) say he was a racist when he was in power. If almost half of the population see him as an ogre then clearly he is NOT the solution.

FM
yuji22 posted:
 solution.

Bhai

I politely disagree. The PNC has damaged race relations to a point where the country is even more polarized and the level of mistrust is at an all time high.

 

 

 

This is why there will  be ethnic mistrust in Guyana. So caught up in your "Indian Narrative" that you fail to understand that other narratives exist.

As to the PPP reaching out to blacks. Well they had 23 years to do so but instead engaged in the same rampant racism that you accuse the PNC of practicing. 

You want to divide the black vote to get Indian dominance, now that Indians are a declining population. What does that have to do with solving the problem?

You know what might change the situation. Let the PPP select is its leader a black man who enjoys popularity among blacks. Nigel Hughes as the PPP presidential candidate will be a game changer.

FM
Django posted:

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

Source

 

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines,

Malcolm Harripaul

While I agree that MPs serving at the pleasure of the party and not of the voters is a fast fire way to dictatorship he mustn't pretend that ethnic voting only began in 1964. It was a feature of the elections in 1956 and in 1961 as well.

The solution cannot be political. It is a healthier civic environment where Guyanese at large, and not just the politicians, deal with the issue of ethnic mistrust which will lead to a healthier political environment.

Guyanese must stop fooling themselves that the fact that they tolerate each other on a daily basis means that all is well and that its only the politicians who create the problem. We vote for our monster because we fear what will happen to us if the other monster is in charge.

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

FM
caribny posted:
Django posted:

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

Source

 

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines,

Malcolm Harripaul

While I agree that MPs serving at the pleasure of the party and not of the voters is a fast fire way to dictatorship he mustn't pretend that ethnic voting only began in 1964. It was a feature of the elections in 1956 and in 1961 as well.

The solution cannot be political. It is a healthier civic environment where Guyanese at large, and not just the politicians, deal with the issue of ethnic mistrust which will lead to a healthier political environment.

Guyanese must stop fooling themselves that the fact that they tolerate each other on a daily basis means that all is well and that its only the politicians who create the problem. We vote for our monster because we fear what will happen to us if the other monster is in charge.

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

GTAngler
GTAngler posted:
 

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese.

Where do Indians live? Where do black Guyanese live? What associations do they have where there are equally involved?

It is an accepted fact that in NYC Indo and Afro Guyanese have little to do with each other.

I look forward to your lists of all of the Guyanese associations where involvement is at least 60:40.

What you purport to be your experience is irrelevant when there are at least 200k Guyanese living in NYC.

In fact on GNI we all know who is Indian and who isn't, even though we don't know each other, and not every one identifies who they are upfront.

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably. I'll wager it's more that the few here out of that 200,000. By the way, a few of the younger Guyanese here were born in the US and when we converse among ourselves you couldn't tell. Two of Afro descent and one of Indo.  I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you why we ended up in Queens. The relatives we came to lived in Queens and when we moved to an apartment, a family friend knew someone, another Guyanese who had a building in Queens with reasonable rent. It was either Queens or a building in Far Rockaway. We knew nobody there so here we are. Lot of the old man's friends and colleagues lived in Brooklyn and he organized several club competitions between social clubs there and here in Queens. People will move where they feel the most comfortable and where it's also economically feasible.

GTAngler
Last edited by GTAngler

Not saying you're entirely wrong. There are those elements which have held on to that historical racial bias and in some cases, religious bigotry. It prevails mostly among the older generation. I specifically mentioned those three here because that's what I am hoping for the future. Unless we have some level of compromise and cooperation, we aren't going anywhere.

GTAngler
GTAngler posted:
caribny posted:
Django posted:
 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

FM
caribny posted:
GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

FM
VVP posted:
caribny posted:
GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

Same here VVP,we can shake hand.

Django
VVP posted:
caribny posted:
GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

Do you remember saying on here that there was a black neighbour who ignored you all, thinking he was too uppity. Now u saying different. Am I wrong. Maybe I read it wrong. If I did, then I apoligize with a sorry.  

S
VVP posted:
GTAngler posted:
caribny posted:
Django posted:
 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

S

This thread is finally moving in a direction of discussion, right or wrong.

I want to add that there is a level of mistrust between Afros and Indos and Carib correctly indicated that Indos are afraid of the PNC "monster" as much as Afros are afraid of the PPP "monster".

The question then raises as to how can both races get rid of these "monster" images and perceptions ?

Burnham and Jagan instilled these Jumbies into both races. There appears to be no obeah man to cure it, Rodney was the only person capable of getting rid of the Jumbies but the PNC murdered him.

We are now finally zoning in on the real problem. It is the truth and both races need to face it.

Let us keep this post civil and we might headed into the right direction.

 

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
seignet posted:
 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

That depends on the Regions and the villages of Guyana.

Django
GTAngler posted:

. Unless we have some level of compromise and cooperation, we aren't going anywhere.

That's a message for the folks in Guyana.  In NYC we go our separate ways and don't see cooperation is being relevant to out lives.  Nor do we see anything to compromise about, given that we are both at the lower middle level in NYC, subject to decisions made by people from other ethnic groups. 

Only a few seem interested in mobilization between the two ethnic groups within NYC as a way to heighten our visibility  as Guyanese.  There are more Guyanese in NYC than Haitians though few will believe this, we being the 5th largest immigrant group.  The fact that we don't live together and rarely do we associate with each other, beyond the odd friendship or two, means that this is a pipe dream.

We didn't bond in Guyana. We merely tolerated each other. Freed from this need to communicate with each other in NYC we don't miss each other.

I know of Afro dominated groups in NYC where there is conversation about making their membership more representative of what being "Guyanese" is all about. I am not aware of similar conversations among Indo dominated groups.  Maybe it does exist but I some how doubt it, aside from maybe having a black token or two, but ensuring that the group remains Indo dominated.

I do know for a fact that the two groups have different notions about what being "Guyanese" is all about.

At Guyanese cultural events the Afros will bring out the Kwekwe drum and the masquerade, all cultural activities developed within Guyana.  The Indians more often than not bring out Bollywood or classic dance rooted in India.  There are Indo Guyanese folks songs, but few Guyanese know them because they aren't performed at national events, but poorly executed Indian classical dance is.

Indians see themselves as being an ethnic group WITHIN Guyana. Africans tend to see themselves as Guyanese who happen to be black.  Look at the exhortations by some right here on GNI that Afro Guyanese must pick up some "African" culture, the implication being that Indo Guyanese still live as if they never left India.  Prashad dismissing the creole culture which developed over the past 400 years in the Caribbean as mere 17th century vulgar pirate culture, with no redeeming values, and he isn't the only one to express that opinion.

At an event 2 decades ago after one of our manifestations of ethnic angst an Afro Guyanese, half jokingly said that maybe the solution was "douglarization". Noted was the horror from the Indians and in fact one of the Indian panelists howled that this was tantamount to ethnic genocide of Indians, and implied that she was a bigot at the level of Adolf Hitler.  Not one African had anything negative to say about this.

So why the different reactions to "douglarization"?  THAT has lots to do with figuring out where our ethnic angst lies.  Look at poor Prashad screaming for his Indian Bantustan.  Even during the worst of the Jagdeo era the cries from blacks was INCLUSION, not separation. Now I am not saying that his view is typically Indian, but its interesting that Ravi Dev and ROAR were going in the same direction, whereas the ACDA isn't.  Ravi Dev had quite a following.

FM
yuji22 posted:

".

The question then raises as to how can both races get rid of these "monster" images and perceptions ?

.

 

 

It begins when you stop viewing every comment on Indian racism as a racist attack on Indians. As you can see I have no problem admitting to the racism of the Burnham era, nor am I denying that Afro Guyanese bought into a Eurocentric notion of the "unassimilated" Indian being an inferior. 

You however refuse to admit to the fact that Indian racism does exist. That many, maybe most, Indians harbor a view of black inferiority (look at drugb's posts as an example).  You peddle Jagdeo as some one who will bring ethnic unity when in fact he is the most divisive politician walking around Guyana today.

FM
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Carib is being allowed to get away with the big lie that Jagdeo marginalized Africans in Guyana when the evidence is there that they prospered during those years the PPP governed.  I should add 'governed democratically".

Billy,

You need to sliced that statement and do an inspection,you will find out it's not very true.

Django
Last edited by Django
VVP posted:
  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

Hmmm.   I was reading an analysis about intra Caribbean migration. It focused on Trinidad, Barbados and St Kitts/Nevis as destinations. Guyanese being well represented in all three.

What was noted in all 3 was the degree of separation between Afro and Indo Guyanese.  This view being expressed by the locals who didn't understand why a Guyanese political squabble should be imported into their lands, and with it inter ethnic tensions.

Now one would think that in majority black islands (Barbados and St Kitts/Nevis) Indians would think that developing relations with the local mainly black populations would be advantageous. And that one way of doing this would be to mix heavily with Afro Guyanese, who clearly will be more easily assimilated, given that accent is all that differentiates them from the locals.

Instead this distance exists between the two groups, the result being that the black locals see Indo Guyanese as being clannish. In fact the analysis indicated that the Guyanese Association in Nevis was mainly blacks, even though most of the Guyanese on that island were Indians.

I might buy into a notion that Burnham and Jagan are to blame for what happens in Guyana, where access to political power in an ethnically polarized nation fosters ethnic distrust. But why in Barbados and St Kitts/Nevis where it would in the interest of Indo Guyanese to be not seen as a group hostile to blacks?  Because it is the black locals who will issue them work permits so that they can stay, and who will hound them down if they don't like them.

FM
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Carib is being allowed to get away with the big lie that Jagdeo marginalized Africans in Guyana when the evidence is there that they prospered during those years the PPP governed.  I should add 'governed democratically".

Exhibit one of why we have an ethnic problem. The vast majority of blacks consider Jagdeo to be a divisive racist. Rather than engaging them to see why they have this opinion BillyRamgoat screams that the love him.

Billy please tell us why blacks didn't vote for Jagdeo/Ramotar in 2001, 2006, 2011 or in 2015? Also why didn't they vote PPP in G/T, New Amsterdam, Linden, Kwakwani and Bartica, places that are black and/or mixed.  The PPP was stomped in the LGE.

Until people like Billyramgoat cease screaming about what blacks think or what they experienced he cannot expect to be trusted as some one who is really concerned about them.

I will leave you to GT Angler.

FM
seignet posted:
VVP posted:
caribny posted:
GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

Do you remember saying on here that there was a black neighbour who ignored you all, thinking he was too uppity. Now u saying different. Am I wrong. Maybe I read it wrong. If I did, then I apoligize with a sorry.  

Yes, two old grouchy people that did not speak to us, but there were no fights.  I used to steal their cane and dounze (sp.) when I was a kid 

FM

Ow man, the day was going nice without fights. Oh well, all good things must come to an end. I asked a question earlier and am still waiting for some answers. Were I living in Guyana during Jagdeo's ascension to the Presidency of Guyana, I certainly would not have voted for him in the subsequent elections. We all know what Burnham was and what Janet/Jagdeo did was in no way different. How do you expect to earn the trust of people when you do exactly what they mistrust? Since then, he has done nothing to repair the damage or indicate that he has changed. Jagdeo is interested in one thing, getting back his empire especially with oil money on the horizon and will use any means to get it.  

GTAngler
seignet posted:
VVP posted:
GTAngler posted:
caribny posted:
Django posted:
 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

FM
VVP posted:
seignet posted:
VVP posted:
GTAngler posted:
caribny posted:
Django posted:
 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

Ole man used to drink at a rum shop on UG road, left side when yuh going in. Had a Copra mill at the side.

GTAngler
VVP posted:
 

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

I am sure that you have decent arrangements with those who you work with. That doesn't mean that you consider yourself an American, or they consider you to be one either.  Or at least some one who is American in the same way that they consider themselves to be.

The issue is that Afro and Indo Guyanese have an opinion of each other as a group.  Afro Guyanese see Indians as being "racial" and clannish, and not a group which can be trusted.  This doesn't mean that they don't have Indians friends or associates  who they trust.  Its the Indian who they don't know.

I am willing to bet that Indians have a narrative about Afros indicating levels of distrust.

I can imagine that a white American will claim that he gets on well with the blacks at work. I don't think that any sane and honest person will claim that black and white Americans, as a group, trust each other.

FM
Gilbakka posted:
caribny posted: In fact on GNI we all know who is Indian and who isn't, even though we don't know each other, and not every one identifies who they are upfront.

Which explains why Bibi Haniffa once said she didn't know Gilbakka is an Indian. She probably thought he was a Brooklynite. 

She knew fully well that you are Indian. She just doesn't think that your behavior is appropriate for an Indian to have as no Indian is allowed to flee the PPP plantation.  Any who succeed have to be punished.

FM
caribny posted:
VVP posted:
 

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

I am sure that you have decent arrangements with those who you work with. That doesn't mean that you consider yourself an American, or they consider you to be one either.  Or at least some one who is American in the same way that they consider themselves to be.

The issue is that Afro and Indo Guyanese have an opinion of each other as a group.  Afro Guyanese see Indians as being "racial" and clannish, and not a group which can be trusted.  This doesn't mean that they don't have Indians friends or associates  who they trust.  Its the Indian who they don't know.

I am willing to bet that Indians have a narrative about Afros indicating levels of distrust.

I can imagine that a white American will claim that he gets on well with the blacks at work. I don't think that any sane and honest person will claim that black and white Americans, as a group, trust each other.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  That's the nature of the beast based on stereotyping.  This does not mean that large sections cannot work together and that they automatically distrust each other.  I think at the professional level there could be complete harmony and trust.

I think that I am always highly respected and trusted by my bosses in USA who are/were all whites.  However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

I have never sucked up for a promotion and did as well as I could do.  I cannot go further unless my boss gets promoted or retires because I am at a point in the pyramid where there is only one person above me in my line of work.

The bottom line is that you can build trust by working hard.  I don't think there is a genetic mistrust built into human beings.  You have to work to build trust.

FM
VVP posted:
caribny posted:
VVP posted:
 

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

I am sure that you have decent arrangements with those who you work with. That doesn't mean that you consider yourself an American, or they consider you to be one either.  Or at least some one who is American in the same way that they consider themselves to be.

The issue is that Afro and Indo Guyanese have an opinion of each other as a group.  Afro Guyanese see Indians as being "racial" and clannish, and not a group which can be trusted.  This doesn't mean that they don't have Indians friends or associates  who they trust.  Its the Indian who they don't know.

I am willing to bet that Indians have a narrative about Afros indicating levels of distrust.

I can imagine that a white American will claim that he gets on well with the blacks at work. I don't think that any sane and honest person will claim that black and white Americans, as a group, trust each other.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  That's the nature of the beast based on stereotyping.  This does not mean that large sections cannot work together and that they automatically distrust each other.  I think at the professional level there could be complete harmony and trust.

I think that I am always highly respected and trusted by my bosses in USA who are/were all whites.  However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

I have never sucked up for a promotion and did as well as I could do.  I cannot go further unless my boss gets promoted or retires because I am at a point in the pyramid where there is only one person above me in my line of work.  Beyond my boss everyone serves at the pleasure of the governor and I am NOT going to be one of them.

The bottom line is that you can build trust by working hard.  I don't think there is a genetic mistrust built into human beings.  You have to work to build trust.

 

FM

In all fairness,

This is the most informative and eye opening discussion that I have ever seen on GNI. It opens up and reveals the issue of race through the eyes of both Indos and Afros.

The biggest question now is how can we apply what we have learnt in order to start building bridges with each other ?

On the whole, Carib has brought up a lot of valid points, I do not agree with everything but I can live with most of what he has stated.

This now leads to my question, should Guyana not have a Truth Commission like they did in South Africa to heal old wounds that are like a massive sore for Afros and Indos ?

Please chime in and please let us keep this discussion civil.

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Yuji, ending the racial divide in Guyana is not a priority for PPP nor PNC. Both parties depend heavily on their racial stronghold to win elections. This is a historical fact. Why do you think Granger is taking care of Lindeners and other black dominated areas? Jagdeo is very likable by most blacks in Guyana, but look what happen in Sophia when Granger walk through the area, despite what Jadgeo has done for Sophia. Coolie and Jagdeo never seem to exist. 

FM
VVP posted:
seignet posted:
VVP posted:
GTAngler posted:
caribny posted:
Django posted:
 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

Neither did I. I attended a Technical School that drew 20 students throughout the county of Berbice each year since 1957. There were a limited number of Black students, we all got along well. We were 15 years old, suh there was no drinking. Bookers ran a very disciplined school.

Even though we all got along, there were differences. Attitudes will say alot.

Racism did not start out with Forbes and Cheddie. Intoterance was always in the society, be it blacks against blacks. As noted by the Georgetown group of Marcus Garvey followers. The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat. That is why Carter chastise Forbes for teaming up with the Jagans. On that account, history proved the exhange of discussions.

Why then are we bewildered that Guyana is reeked with racial and religious differences to the point of hate and domination.

Every Primer, Prime Minister and President had with them a number of Afro and Indo elites. They appear not to be racist.

I read somewhere, an excellent leader makes decisions for seven generations. That is nation building. Guyana HAS NEVER had such a man or woman.

The country needs a visionary. By his actions, citizen will have hope. 

Racism will always exist in Guyana, but with a good life, prejudices will be less botherrsome.

S
VVP posted:
.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  

 

 However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

.

This is why there is ethnic distrust in Guyana.   This is why this distrust is probably higher in the professional circles than among the working class.

Africans fear that Indo clannishness means that an Indo boss, or an Indo dominated government will mean that they will be excluded, or marginalized.  I remember seeing a company located in the G/T area where the manager was an Indian. In announcing almost 30 new hires fewer than 5 were non Indian.  I wondered how in the G/T area such a low % of black new employees was possible.

I am not Indian so will not opine as to why Indians don't like/fear Afro leadership. I do know for a fact that this extends to NYC as I know of some Guyanese groups, led by Afro Guyanese, more specifically Afro Guyanese women, which have bent over backwards to attract Indians, and have failed. So they have given up.  The few Indians who come along being the type who are derided here on GNI as "Cuffy lovers", "Congo Lovers". "neemakaram", etc.

Ethnic tension in Guyana is institutional, not social. While I can imagine some Indo and Afro neighbors might be initially suspicious of each other, normally over time they get on, and may even become friends.  It is the perception that institutions dominated by one group cannot be fair to the other that leads to the problem.  Institutions are almost always dominated by the upper echelons of a group.

FM
Cobra posted:

? Jagdeo is very likable by most blacks in Guyana,

And what evidence do you have? He goes some where and a few people shake his hand?  Well Indians shake Granger's hands and used to hug up Burnham too.  People respond in a certain way when a powerful person is within their midst, but that doesn't mean that they like them.

The PPP fools themselves with this nonsense that blacks like them and every election they discover otherwise, so they then wail about "dem blackman ungrateful".

FM
seignet posted:
The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat.

As is usual with the Indo KKK every one is blamed for racism other than Indians.

I will suggest to you that plans by certain Indian elites in the early 20th century of fostering more immigration by Indian indentures, with the goal of turning British Guiana into "an Indian colony," wasn't going to reassure other groups.  And in fact it led to an ethnic race with "colored" groups then demanding more immigration from the Caribbean to prevent non Indians from being outnumbered.  THAT was the beginning of our Indo vs. Afro/mixed competition in Guyana.

If Brazilians walked into Guyana and then declared that they will want more Brazilians in so that Guyana could then become a de facto part of Brazil I am willing to be that you will become alarmed, and justifiably so.

FM
Bibi Haniffa posted:
Gilbakka posted:
Bibi Haniffa posted:

So you mean to say you are not a Brooklynite?

Honorary Brooklynite. Like Honorary Doctorate. 

Massa - there is no such thing as Honorary Brooklynite.  You have to barn and grow near Flatbush Avenue to earn your stripes!!!!!!

Missy, lemme tell yuh someting hey. Gilbakka has many genuine friends in Brooklyn. And he is assured of VIP welcome anytime he decides to visit Brooklyn. And furthermore, lemme talk me mind: me nah like Richmond Hill, period.

FM
Mars posted:
cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
VVP posted:
.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  

 

 However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

.

 

Ethnic tension in Guyana is institutional, not social. 

I think you are saying that ethic tension is driven by races-based politics, which I agree with.

I do hope and genuinely believe that a totally inclusive political party can be formed in Guyana to erase the race-based politics.  In fact, I hope that a party can be formed of technocrats whose only interest is to lay the foundation for future generations and get out and in the process develop an inclusive POLITICAL party to carry on.  Is this a dream?

I believe that technocrats who have "been there done that" would not see political positions in Guyana as positions of power and prestige as the current flock do.

FM
caribny posted:
seignet posted:
The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat.

As is usual with the Indo KKK every one is blamed for racism other than Indians.

I will suggest to you that plans by certain Indian elites in the early 20th century of fostering more immigration by Indian indentures, with the goal of turning British Guiana into "an Indian colony," wasn't going to reassure other groups.  And in fact it led to an ethnic race with "colored" groups then demanding more immigration from the Caribbean to prevent non Indians from being outnumbered.  THAT was the beginning of our Indo vs. Afro/mixed competition in Guyana.

If Brazilians walked into Guyana and then declared that they will want more Brazilians in so that Guyana could then become a de facto part of Brazil I am willing to be that you will become alarmed, and justifiably so.

To be specific, the Luckhoos wanted to bring in more indentures into the colony. I do not believe it was their intentions to marginalized the Amerindians, the Negroes or the Coloreds. The Portuguese and Chinese were a small portion of the population and there were no Douglas or mixtures of Chinese and Portuguese. There were a sizeable number of Buffiandahs.

FRom among the peoples living in the colony, it was the Coloreds, mainly eurocentric and educated were really concerned over the plan. Ofcourse, they had great influence in the colony. They scuttled the plan. By then, it was too late, the indentureds were a great number. The Coloreds used their influence to secure benefits for their group. Later, the British Guiana East Indian Association would imitate the efforts of the Coloreds, moving up the Colonial Ladder. Now, there were Coloreds and East Indians from BG being patronized by the Crown. And there began a silent animosity.

Unfortunately, poorer class Guyanese would feel the perils of that era.    

Even when old cretchens die, Racism will always exist in Guyana and elsewhere. Another two isms are Militarism and Consumerism. Those three affects the poorer classes of people all over the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

S
Gilbakka posted:
Mars posted:
cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

Gil,

You can do a lot better than this. Blacks voted PNC as much as Indos voted PPP at the last general election. I can further add that some Indians were open minded enough to give the PNC a try and we all know the end result today.

Why identify that Indos vote PPP alone and intentionally ignore that blacks voted 99 percent PNC at the last election ?

We need to first acknowledge that the issue of race based voting in Guyana with both blacks and Indos. This is not exclusive to Indos only.

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

They DO NOT want to see racial unity in Guyana and constantly poke the eyes of Indos and use bullying tactics as a method to diminish racial unity in Guyana by labelling Indos who speak out as racists.

Please try again.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
yuji22 posted:
 
 

Gil,

 

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

 

I'll let Mars respond to this one. Mars Afrocentric? Please consult your mental health specialist again.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
yuji22 posted:
Gilbakka posted:
Mars posted:
cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

Gil,

You can do a lot better than this. Blacks voted PNC as much as Indos voted PPP at the last general election. I can further add that some Indians were open minded enough to give the PNC a try and we all know the end result today.

Why identify that Indos vote PPP alone and intentionally ignore that blacks voted 99 percent PNC at the last election ?

We need to first acknowledge that the issue of race based voting in Guyana with both blacks and Indos. This is not exclusive to Indos only.

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

They DO NOT want to see racial unity in Guyana and constantly poke the eyes of Indos and use bullying tactics as a method to diminish racial unity in Guyana by labelling Indos who speak out as racists.

Please try again.

You're sofa king stupid, it ain't funny. Am I Black and Afrocentric? You have to make up all kinds of shit which is obviously ludicrous to anyone who knows me. How can a vile racist like you even dare to mention racial unity? Have you no bloody shame?

 

Mars
Gilbakka posted:
yuji22 posted:
 
 

Gil,

 

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

 

I'll let Mars respond to this one. Mars Afrocentric? Please consult your mental health specialist again.

He needs to go back to BMH for additional treatment

Mars
Gilbakka posted:
.As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls..

Guyanese use two strategies as they seek t avoid discussions of race.

1.  "Is de palitishun to blame. WE does get on except during elections". Said with a straight face even after the AFC tried to campaign in 2006 and in 2011 as a non race based party, and was thoroughly rejected by Guyanese who exercised their democratic rights to vote for the same ones who they blame.

2.  "Is only de ol' people racial. We does mix, and gat fren of all races". Yet with a very young voting base and a very high voter turn out 2015 turned out to be the same ethnic census that every election has been since 1957. 

If young Guyanese were non racial Jagdeo wouldn't be the racist charlatan that he is, as he was born after the 60s in a relatively diverse part of Guyana, and was expected to be better when he assumed the presidency.  Jagdeo wasn't even 40 when he became president.  He turned out to be far more racist, and exploitative of racial angst then his mentor Cheddi Jagan who was considerably older.

FM
seignet posted:
.

To be specific, the Luckhoos wanted to bring in more indentures into the colony. I do not believe it was their intentions to marginalized the Amerindians, the Negroes or the Coloreds..

 

 

 

 

 

The rationale for bringing in more indentures wasn't a function of BG having a labor shortage.   With ample supplies of Indian indentures, and blacks from Guyana and Barbados, clearly the motivation was to ensure that the Indian population was the majority.  It wasn't that additional labor was needed.  This wasn't 1848 when one could have argued that labor was in short supply.

Even in 2017 many legitimately wonder what % of Indo Guyanese have an identity that embraces a notion of a multi cultural Guyana, where they have strong bonds with other groups, and where being "Guyanese" should dominate over one's ethnic identity.  Whether they have a  mindset that embraces inclusiveness and empathy for Guyanese without regard to race.

I can well imagine in 1915, when most of the Indians were born in India and had scant interest or ability to interact with others, there would have been widespread panic among both the colored and the blacks that they risked replacing a white massa for an Indian one. This if Indians outnumbered and politically dominated Guyana.  And in fact we did see this under PPP rule.  

FM
yuji22 posted:

According to the PNC apologist and spin man, Carib:

Racist Harmon, Granger and Williams are Gods.

 

I see that the Indo KKK continues to invent lies to disguise their own racism. Calling Mars "Afrocentric" when it isn't even clear whether he identifies as being black, and calling me a PNC apologist when scarcely a positive note about that party emanates from me. And even as it was acknowledged that I admit that the PNC was racist towards Indians, and I am adamant that they destroyed Afro Guyanese.

FM
yuji22 posted:

 

This now leads to my question, should Guyana not have a Truth Commission like they did in South Africa to heal old wounds that are like a massive sore for Afros and Indos ?

Please chime in and please let us keep this discussion civil.

 

You don't want a Truth Commission. You want blacks and the PNC to be punished.

Just let there be any discussion of PPP racist tactics to be revealed and you will squeal "black man a kill ahbe" and wail that blacks did better under the PPP than did Indians.

We cannot have a Truth Commission because we don't even agree as to what the "truth" is.  It was easier in South Africa as it was clear which entities were to blame.  The only issue is whether a lowly white policeman should be punished when he was merely following orders.

FM
VVP posted:

I think you are saying that ethic tension is driven by races-based politics, which I agree with.

 

I used the term institutional instead of political as racial insecurities extend into the private sector as well. In the opinion of blacks Indians will show bias against them in favor of Indians wherever they have clout, even if merely as a manager in a company which isn't Indian owned.

If Guyanese insist in confining the problem as political it will never be resolved. Politicians go where the votes are, and if the vote is one based on racial insecurity then the political system will respond to this.

When a black person can work for Muneshwers Ltd and can expect to be treated based on his/her merits and not see less competent Indians be promoted ahead of them then we will see some progress.  At that point he/she will stop recoiling in terror at the notion of an Indian president. 

FM
caribny posted:
 

When a black person can work for Muneshwers Ltd and can expect to be treated based on his/her merits and not see less competent Indians be promoted ahead of them then we will see some progress.  At that point he/she will stop recoiling in terror at the notion of an Indian president. 

You cannot force a private company to hire anyone.  The private sector should be looking for the best person but whoever they select is up to them.

What they need to start with is the public sector and ensure that the most suitable person get the position regardless of race.  This is not the case in Guyana and it is a major problem.

FM
caribny posted:
seignet posted:
.

To be specific, the Luckhoos wanted to bring in more indentures into the colony. I do not believe it was their intentions to marginalized the Amerindians, the Negroes or the Coloreds..

 

 

 

 

 

The rationale for bringing in more indentures wasn't a function of BG having a labor shortage.   With ample supplies of Indian indentures, and blacks from Guyana and Barbados, clearly the motivation was to ensure that the Indian population was the majority.  It wasn't that additional labor was needed.  This wasn't 1848 when one could have argued that labor was in short supply.

Even in 2017 many legitimately wonder what % of Indo Guyanese have an identity that embraces a notion of a multi cultural Guyana, where they have strong bonds with other groups, and where being "Guyanese" should dominate over one's ethnic identity.  Whether they have a  mindset that embraces inclusiveness and empathy for Guyanese without regard to race.

I can well imagine in 1915, when most of the Indians were born in India and had scant interest or ability to interact with others, there would have been widespread panic among both the colored and the blacks that they risked replacing a white massa for an Indian one. This if Indians outnumbered and politically dominated Guyana.  And in fact we did see this under PPP rule.  

In the nineteen hundreds India endured alot famines, and always did. Suh, the Luckhoos thought of easing the deprivation of few by bringing them to BG. Today, it is called humanitarian. I doan think Indo domination was on their mind. Besides, back then, the buccra ran everything, who would believe back then they would relinquish control of the colony. The Indians were in servitude, the blacks were the teachers, nurses, and many other uppity jobs, the coloreds were the adminstrators of the colony and the Amerindians were in the bush.

S
VVP posted:

You cannot force a private company to hire anyone.

So then we will continue to have a race problem. The public sector CANNOT hire every one looking for employment, so if the private sector peddles racism then those who are discriminated against will resent those who are doing the discriminating.

You are NOT serious about wanting a solution to this problem if you do not insist that when the private sector hires people race should NOT be a consideration

FM
seignet posted:
 

In the nineteen hundreds India endured alot famines, and always did. Suh, the Luckhoos thought of easing the deprivation of few by bringing them to BG. Today, it is called humanitarian. I doan think Indo domination was on their mind. Besides, back then, the buccra ran everything, who would believe back then they would relinquish control of the colony. The Indians were in servitude, the blacks were the teachers, nurses, and many other uppity jobs, the coloreds were the adminstrators of the colony and the Amerindians were in the bush.

Well it was and at the time the black/colored as well as the Indian elites were jockeying to end white domination of Guyana.  Rather than working with the black/coloreds the Indian elites wanted to turn British Guiana into an Indian colony.

Indenture was also ended around that time because it was NOT a humanitarian system.

FM
caribny posted:
seignet posted:
 

In the nineteen hundreds India endured alot famines, and always did. Suh, the Luckhoos thought of easing the deprivation of few by bringing them to BG. Today, it is called humanitarian. I doan think Indo domination was on their mind. Besides, back then, the buccra ran everything, who would believe back then they would relinquish control of the colony. The Indians were in servitude, the blacks were the teachers, nurses, and many other uppity jobs, the coloreds were the adminstrators of the colony and the Amerindians were in the bush.

Well it was and at the time the black/colored as well as the Indian elites were jockeying to end white domination of Guyana.  Rather than working with the black/coloreds the Indian elites wanted to turn British Guiana into an Indian colony.

Indenture was also ended around that time because it was NOT a humanitarian system.

Jagan was more interested in unity with the Africans than the Portugese.  He was bitterly opposed to pro-Indian leaders during his time.

Billy Ram Balgobin
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
caribny posted:
seignet posted:
 

In the nineteen hundreds India endured alot famines, and always did. Suh, the Luckhoos thought of easing the deprivation of few by bringing them to BG. Today, it is called humanitarian. I doan think Indo domination was on their mind. Besides, back then, the buccra ran everything, who would believe back then they would relinquish control of the colony. The Indians were in servitude, the blacks were the teachers, nurses, and many other uppity jobs, the coloreds were the adminstrators of the colony and the Amerindians were in the bush.

Well it was and at the time the black/colored as well as the Indian elites were jockeying to end white domination of Guyana.  Rather than working with the black/coloreds the Indian elites wanted to turn British Guiana into an Indian colony.

Indenture was also ended around that time because it was NOT a humanitarian system.

Jagan was more interested in unity with the Africans than the Portugese.  He was bitterly opposed to pro-Indian leaders during his time.

This was told to me by one of Jagan's inner circle. A rice farmer from the East Coast Demerara. The Soviet Union offered Jagan weapons. They would refuse some rice shipments and smuggle arms in them. Jagan refused because he didn't want more bloodshed. Some may disagree with that and call him naive but a true leader thinks of his people first. The only similarities between Jagan and Jagdeo are the "Jag" and they are both Indo-Guyanese.

GTAngler
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
 

Jagan was more interested in unity with the Africans than the Portugese.  He was bitterly opposed to pro-Indian leaders during his time.

Yes this is evidence of the Burnham/Jagan scam.  They told Guyanese that before their time Guyana had no history and so all you can do is reference them.

Burnham and Jagan stand on the shoulders of people like Critchlow. There was a whole struggle for greater involvement in the running of the colony before either man was even born!

FM
GTAngler posted:
 

This was told to me by one of Jagan's inner circle. A rice farmer from the East Coast Demerara. The Soviet Union offered Jagan weapons. They would refuse some rice shipments and smuggle arms in them. Jagan refused because he didn't want more bloodshed. Some may disagree with that and call him naive but a true leader thinks of his people first. The only similarities between Jagan and Jagdeo are the "Jag" and they are both Indo-Guyanese.

Total nonsense. By the time the 60s rolled around the Indian elites were already embedded in the PPP following the apan jhat votes of 1961 and 1957.

PYO operatives were sent to Cuba for training and weapons were shipped to the PPP from Castro.   This is just as how the PNC/UF received weapons from the CIA.

And to show how ridiculous you look why would the USSR liaise with the potentially reactionary anti communist rice farmer when there were a whole cadre of PYO operatives who they had already trained?  Jagan sent them to Cuba for training in the use of covert violent tactics, bomb making, etc.

Jagan wanted power. In 1964 it was agreed by the British that elections would occur under the new PR rules.

Jagan feared that he would lose this election as it was evident that the PNC and the UF would coalesce afterward.  He wanted to delay the elections and unleashed a reign of violence to achieve that goal. Just as the PNC and the UF did in 1962/3 when they wanted to set up the conditions were an early election under new rules would occur.

Please disabuse yourself of this notion that the PPP were angels. They were every bit as dirty and violent and power obsessed as was the PNC and the UF.  Your elders fooled you, and you aren't sensible enough to understand that in any struggle the truth lies in between what either side says.

FM
caribny posted:
GTAngler posted:
 

This was told to me by one of Jagan's inner circle. A rice farmer from the East Coast Demerara. The Soviet Union offered Jagan weapons. They would refuse some rice shipments and smuggle arms in them. Jagan refused because he didn't want more bloodshed. Some may disagree with that and call him naive but a true leader thinks of his people first. The only similarities between Jagan and Jagdeo are the "Jag" and they are both Indo-Guyanese.

Total nonsense. By the time the 60s rolled around the Indian elites were already embedded in the PPP following the apan jhat votes of 1961 and 1957.

PYO operatives were sent to Cuba for training and weapons were shipped to the PPP from Castro.   This is just as how the PNC/UF received weapons from the CIA.

And to show how ridiculous you look why would the USSR liaise with the potentially reactionary anti communist rice farmer when there were a whole cadre of PYO operatives who they had already trained?  Jagan sent them to Cuba for training in the use of covert violent tactics, bomb making, etc.

Jagan wanted power. In 1964 it was agreed by the British that elections would occur under the new PR rules.

Jagan feared that he would lose this election as it was evident that the PNC and the UF would coalesce afterward.  He wanted to delay the elections and unleashed a reign of violence to achieve that goal. Just as the PNC and the UF did in 1962/3 when they wanted to set up the conditions were an early election under new rules would occur.

Please disabuse yourself of this notion that the PPP were angels. They were every bit as dirty and violent and power obsessed as was the PNC and the UF.  Your elders fooled you, and you aren't sensible enough to understand that in any struggle the truth lies in between what either side says.

When I come at you in response, must cry like a little girl again that I made personal attacks. Show me where I said the PPP were angels. I also specifically said Jagan meaning Cheddi. We had a short lived respite from your idiocy but I can see you're back. As usual you just read what you wanted. This was a story passed on to me by a now deceased old man.

GTAngler
GTAngler posted:
.

When I come at you in response, must cry like a little girl again that I made personal attacks. Show me where I said the PPP were angels. I also specifically said Jagan meaning Cheddi. We had a short lived respite from your idiocy but I can see you're back. As usual you just read what you wanted. This was a story passed on to me by a now deceased old man.

I really didn't care that you called me a pig and a dog, as that reflected more on you. AT what point have I ever used that language to describe you?

You referred to the PPP as angels right above by implying that orders for violence didn't come straight from Cheddi's mouth, or that if he didn't order it he certainly didn't stop it.

Please don't tell me that you really think that Cheddi didn't know that some PYO were sent to Cuba for training in terrorism.

I note that I am an idiot, in your mind because you object to me educating you on the fact that the PPP and Cheddi were no more angelic during the 60s than was Burnham, Hammie Green or Peter D'Aguiar. Rice shipments went to Cuba and returned with guns. FACT. They ALL had blood on their ends and it takes a special kind of idiot to claim otherwise.

Now some dead black man might have told me that Burnham loved PPP Indians. Does this mean that I will believe him?  The fact that some dead relative of yours told you blatantly lies suggest that if you believed what they said without further investigation then indeed you are an idiot.

FM
VVP posted:
caribny posted:
 

When a black person can work for Muneshwers Ltd and can expect to be treated based on his/her merits and not see less competent Indians be promoted ahead of them then we will see some progress.  At that point he/she will stop recoiling in terror at the notion of an Indian president. 

You cannot force a private company to hire anyone.  The private sector should be looking for the best person but whoever they select is up to them.

What they need to start with is the public sector and ensure that the most suitable person get the position regardless of race.  This is not the case in Guyana and it is a major problem.

One may not be able to force a private company to do anything but if the company is receiving government contracts as this one is then they must comply with the state's employment guidelines. I do not have evidence of their hiring practices but if as he says there is not ethnic diversity there then they should not be engaging in government bids etc.

FM
Prashad posted:

Racial conflicts will increase as the East Indian population decrease.

Quite the contrary, racial conflict will decrease as Indians are effectively ethnically cleansed and no longer a threat to Afro domination.  And the day is upon us.  The PNC has been handed this on a silver platter with the Sugar industry which they will gut an force Indians out to seek jobs elsewhere.  The PPP is partially to blame with their lack for foresight and strategy to deal with their constituency as this industry declines!  BJ tried to keep a dying old man breathing, Granger will pull the plug!

FM
GTAngler posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
caribny posted:
seignet posted:
 

In the nineteen hundreds India endured alot famines, and always did. Suh, the Luckhoos thought of easing the deprivation of few by bringing them to BG. Today, it is called humanitarian. I doan think Indo domination was on their mind. Besides, back then, the buccra ran everything, who would believe back then they would relinquish control of the colony. The Indians were in servitude, the blacks were the teachers, nurses, and many other uppity jobs, the coloreds were the adminstrators of the colony and the Amerindians were in the bush.

Well it was and at the time the black/colored as well as the Indian elites were jockeying to end white domination of Guyana.  Rather than working with the black/coloreds the Indian elites wanted to turn British Guiana into an Indian colony.

Indenture was also ended around that time because it was NOT a humanitarian system.

Jagan was more interested in unity with the Africans than the Portugese.  He was bitterly opposed to pro-Indian leaders during his time.

This was told to me by one of Jagan's inner circle. A rice farmer from the East Coast Demerara. The Soviet Union offered Jagan weapons. They would refuse some rice shipments and smuggle arms in them. Jagan refused because he didn't want more bloodshed. Some may disagree with that and call him naive but a true leader thinks of his people first. The only similarities between Jagan and Jagdeo are the "Jag" and they are both Indo-Guyanese.

Jagan was a loud-mouthed whimp, the opinion of my uncles who were close to him.  The only people he was good at cussing were the Americans and Brits!

FM
caribny posted:
VVP posted:

You cannot force a private company to hire anyone.

So then we will continue to have a race problem. The public sector CANNOT hire every one looking for employment, so if the private sector peddles racism then those who are discriminated against will resent those who are doing the discriminating.

You are NOT serious about wanting a solution to this problem if you do not insist that when the private sector hires people race should NOT be a consideration

The private sector must hire all races just like we expect the Afro dominated GPF/GDF to serve and protect all races.  I like what my relatives are doing there.  Walk into their businesses, all races working reflecting the make-up of Guyana.  In fact, one of my relatives indicated that Blacks are loyal, much more than Indians!

FM

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