caribny posted:

VishMahabir posted:

 

 

 

"people who look like us and people who look like Bharat" 

I would suggest you take a step back, pretend you are Jagdeo or a PPP supporter, and try and analyze Volda's statement from the perspective of an Indo...

My question to you will be how many Indians take the time to understand how blacks felt under the PPP.  And this is important because many aren't going to tolerate a return of that era.

Jagdeo is a card carrying black hating racist and he failed in attempting to intimidate Freddie K who called him exactly that.

2020 comes and it isnt just blacks or the PNC which ought to be held t account. Even Gilbakka, a moderate and fair man (or at least I think that he is) seems to believe that all the PPP needs to do is to preach their gospel to black/mixed voters.  Indians just refuse to understand that it is not only they who feel the sting of ethnic insecurity.

Many times I explained to you but you play hard ears. It's simple, PPP gave milk tea while PNC gave black tea.

Baseman posted:

 

I was on the phone with an AFC top brass earlier today.  They have some plans to rubber band the coalition together and keep power in 2020.  I don’t know if it will work, let’s see!

Dude, you want some folks to get heart attack?

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

a

 

she is PNC chair . . . she is not running for president

guilty of one thing DOES NOT make her guilty of EVERYTHING!

she is PERFECTLY IN ORDER with [her] comments addressed on THIS thread

She is NOT in order to say this unless its about positions within the PNC itself. Her role is to ensure that the PNC and its allies are re-elected to office and in a nation where Africans are only 32% of the voting age population, and when the PNC has never on its own, won more than 41% of the votes, she needs to be open.

you seem confused

the highlighted is making MY point

How exactly can she win an election  when the PNC peaks at 41% and its now clear that the AFC cannot bring in the remaining 10%?

What in her remarks guarantees that the PNC can increase its votes to at least 47%, given that the AFC seems unable to muster its 2006 and 2011 votes?

Please answer without your usual attacks like calling people confused or meandering.

i actually see merit in most of your ponderings above

not sure what those have to do with my issue

Leonora posted:

Baseman posted:

 

I was on the phone with an AFC top brass earlier today.  They have some plans to rubber band the coalition together and keep power in 2020.  I don’t know if it will work, let’s see!

Dude, you want some folks to get heart attack?

..he's on the phone with AFC top brass, feeding Granger bake and solfish in he basement, and will be representing fat man Irfart, and "bookworm" nanda man in court. He is a man of all parties fuh all seasons. lol.

And he doin' all dis while figurin' out people taxes.

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

a

 

 

I agree with some of what you said.  But why you refer to BJ as a monster?  The Black People of Guyana seems cordial with him. He surely cannot be that bad and still walk among them so freely!

Any man who thinks that he can use para militia gangs, hang out with drug terrorists like Roger Khan and refuse to engage in any dialogue on the issue of ethnic insecurity, when he is accused of fostering this is a monster.

And when blacks were cheering and yelling "finally the slow holocaust is over", this when the PPP lost. That doesn't look like they are OK with Jagdeo.

Do you think that Indians were OK with Burnham when they garlanded him with flowers and welcomed him to Hindu temples?

You have PNC Indos, they are called "Dutty Indos"

ronan posted:

 

i actually see merit in most of your ponderings above

not sure what those have to do with my issue

Then I dont know what your issue is. My issue is that I dont want Jagdeo back in office in any capacity.  He is a demon and will feel validated if he wins. The next PPP presidential candidate will be even more of a Jagdeo stooge than Ramotar was.  Jagdeo is intent in rubbing his greedy little hands to soak up the "oil money" and he wants to ensure that he and his cronies benefit.

I dont care for the Coalition and I am highly critical of them, but I want them to win again as they are less entrenched than a victorious PPP will be. Hopefully once they return to sanity, having licked the blood of humiliation given that the lowest turnout was in PNC strongholds, they will embark on a sensible strategy that attends to the frustrations of their core base without alienating swing voters.

Victory in Guyana comes to those who can get out their base. But also those who can woo the swing vote.  The Coalition did so last time as people hoped that the corrupt excesses and vulgarity of the PPP would be less of an issue.  But Harmon's corruption (he isnt the only one either), now compounded by Volda's emotional rant, now will give many pause.

We will see if the Coalition is serious if they have a major cabinet reconfiguration. They should dump the many dead weights from both APNU and the AFC.  They should engage younger creative and innovative people in decision making.  They need to engage the youth who will be more important, given that Guyanese are very young.

And they need to develop and promote a strategy that ensures that the average Guyanese benefits from the expected economic boom once oil revenues arrive sometime after 2020.

But I dont see these ageing band of soldiers doing this, nor do I see the AFC ambulance chasers.  

kp posted:

c

 

You have PNC Indos, they are called "Dutty Indos"

So using your thinking PPP blacks are "dutty blacks".

ayuh step away from "dutty indians" and "dutty blacks", or this will be closed

Maybe you should have stepped in when KP made his comments so I wouldn't have had to let him know that there is more than one perspective in Guyana.

well...better late than never

Iguana posted:

Leonora posted:

Baseman posted:

 

I was on the phone with an AFC top brass earlier today.  They have some plans to rubber band the coalition together and keep power in 2020.  I don’t know if it will work, let’s see!

Dude, you want some folks to get heart attack?

..he's on the phone with AFC top brass, feeding Granger bake and solfish in he basement, and will be representing fat man Irfart, and "bookworm" nanda man in court. He is a man of all parties fuh all seasons. lol.

And he doin' all dis while figurin' out people taxes.

And me izz doing lil option trading; naked Puts, Calls,  strangle, straddle...this IPhone izz wunderbar!

Izz not tax season, suh mi geh lil free time pon me haan!  Mi done mi CPEs and all.

Mi done wid mi charity fund raising fuh Nov since last week.  Next week is December push.

HE Granger off the grid right now.  Da man can’t eat no bake and solfish no moo!

And mi fugget, November Close coming fast and network down!

Ray posted:

ayuh step away from "dutty indians" and "dutty blacks", or this will be closed

AYuh lucky Jalil izz no moo, or was dutty sperm!

DO you do a lot of write ups?

Ray posted:

well...better late than never

Betta neva late

Hol off na man, how come you come so fast. 

Ray posted:

DO you do a lot of write ups?

I stick right now to purchase naked Puts/Calls, focus on MSFT as the IV is not outrageous, it’s efficient and great volume.  

Cashed out today, done till next week.  G20!

Will get back into the Premium game next year.

caribny posted:

VishMahabir posted:

 

 

 

"people who look like us and people who look like Bharat" 

I would suggest you take a step back, pretend you are Jagdeo or a PPP supporter, and try and analyze Volda's statement from the perspective of an Indo...

My question to you will be how many Indians take the time to understand how blacks felt under the PPP.  And this is important because many aren't going to tolerate a return of that era.

Jagdeo is a card carrying black hating racist and he failed in attempting to intimidate Freddie K who called him exactly that.

2020 comes and it isnt just blacks or the PNC which ought to be held t account. Even Gilbakka, a moderate and fair man (or at least I think that he is) seems to believe that all the PPP needs to do is to preach their gospel to black/mixed voters.  Indians just refuse to understand that it is not only they who feel the sting of ethnic insecurity.

"...how many Indians take the time to understand how blacks felt under the PPP"

Not many...

...but this is the crux of the problem, with Guyana being a divided ethnic society where a win for one group is a loss for the other...racial politics leads to zero-sum politics. The answer is "not many" because Indians see Jagdeo as a "demi-God" in the same way that Afros would consider Granger. The sword cuts both ways...you cant simply blame one group and not the other (before the 23, there was 28).

An Indo can raise the same question about a number of issues also...such as why are so many Indos fired from govt positions, why is the govt so callous towards the sugar workers...yes, I get it...Afros can make the same points about disrespect, discrimination, etc towards Afros under the PPP...its an endless vicious circle of racial distrust ...with no end in sight.

Guyana lost the chance to bridge the racial gap when Dr. Rodney was assassinated.

However....I have made this point before....this problem can only be addressed by the political elites who have to set the norm, change the culture and focus on the politics of accommodation... 

Instead, politicians perpetuate the problem and the rank and file gets fed the same bile.

This is why I think Ronan misses the Big Picture about Volda's rhetoric...which if not tempered will evoke and perpetuate a similar reaction. Sopporters take their cue from their leaders.

"..And this is important because many aren't going to tolerate

a return of that era"

Two points about this statement:

1) I believe you are right about this (because Indos do not understand the extent to which the last PPP admin is despised...Luncheon statement, Crum Ewing, 400 Afros killed, Waddell and such).  This is why I have argued that there is no guarantee that the next election will be free and fair (fear of PPP, experience with rigging, the LGE being a wake up call, etc).

2) However, here is where I have a problem with the argument you are making. By condemning Jagdeo and the PPP you are not leaving any hope for redemption of the PPP. Jagdeo cannot run, and there is not guarantee that his successor will be a rubber stamp. It is probably healthy to have a one term govt, and one can only hope that the PPP, should they win in 2020, would be cautioned about the wanton corruption of its past ways....especially if the coalition can get a few convictions.

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

the woman is telling the Afro party faithful that the PNC needs to recruit Indians, i.e., "people who look like Bharat" to win back the lost LDCs

your consternation/horror at that which should be celebrated is indeed "quite telling"!

smfh

And after she told the crowd that she is only going to hire PNC people how will she accomplish this?

Her speech certainly didn't speak to inclusion at any level.  Yes she and the rest of them are now in panic with the sudden realization that they will be sent back outside when the PPP wins in 2020.  So now all types of intemperate chatter.

The question she should have been asking is why is it that the crowds were almost exclusively black, because it is blatantly obvious that the black vote alone (even with black identified mixed people included) cannot win any election in Guyana.

It is a given in Guyana that politicians play to the crowd...they do not have the finesse and intellectual capability to rise above the fray..Ronan, you are beating a dead horse...Volda was crude in her rhetoric...but that is no excuse.

Let her address an Indo audience and let us see how well she does this...I have an open mind, but I think her words here leaves much to be desired...you cant simply write this off as her being in campaign and speaking to her supporters...

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

Volda is being sensational to grab the spotlight and attention of core loyalists.  She will moderate!

The fact that this is how she handles the frustration of the PNC base, who felt oppressed by the PPP, and then ignored by the APNU elites, doesn't speak well of her.

She and her colleagues are afraid of losing their jobs, and those who weren't corrupt face financial distress, as many did after 1992. Carl Greenidge had to leave Guyana to find work, and even then the PPP attempted to block him.

There is something missing in the whole bunch.  I believe Granger has not been an assertive strong leader so they seem adrift!  They missing a credo!

Unfortunately...I dont believe Granger (and I think Granger believes this too) can control his PNC flank...even more so as he might be perceived as moving in a "lame duck" mode. If there is indeed in-fighting, it will continue...but the natives, on both sides, will circle the wagon as election draws closer.

VishMahabir posted:

Baseman posted:

caribny posted:

Baseman posted:

Volda is being sensational to grab the spotlight and attention of core loyalists.  She will moderate!

The fact that this is how she handles the frustration of the PNC base, who felt oppressed by the PPP, and then ignored by the APNU elites, doesn't speak well of her.

She and her colleagues are afraid of losing their jobs, and those who weren't corrupt face financial distress, as many did after 1992. Carl Greenidge had to leave Guyana to find work, and even then the PPP attempted to block him.

There is something missing in the whole bunch.  I believe Granger has not been an assertive strong leader so they seem adrift!  They missing a credo!

Unfortunately...I dont believe Granger (and I think Granger believes this too) can control his PNC flank...even more so as he might be perceived as moving in a "lame duck" mode. If there is indeed in-fighting, it will continue...but the natives, on both sides, will circle the wagon as election draws closer.

 

You would be surprised where/who Granger and the moderates are now leaning on to fend off PNC hard line loyalists!

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

Baseman posted:

You would be surprised where/who Granger and the moderates are now leaning on to fend off PNC hard line loyalists!

Who? You and yuh uncles? Or did they give Irfart a plate of beef curry to help out?

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

i actually see merit in most of your ponderings above

not sure what those have to do with my issue

The next PPP presidential candidate will be even more of a Jagdeo stooge than Ramotar was.  Jagdeo is intent in rubbing his greedy little hands to soak up the "oil money" and he wants to ensure that he and his cronies benefit.

eir base. But also those who can woo the swing vote.  The Coalition did so last time as people hoped that the corrupt excesses and vulgarity of the PPP would be less of an issue.  But Harmon's corruption (he isnt the only one either), now compounded by Volda's emotional rant, now will give many pause.

We will see if the Coalition is serious if they have a major cabinet reconfiguration. They should dump the many dead weights from both APNU and the AFC.  They should engage younger creative and innovative people in decision making.  They need to engage the youth who will be more important, given that Guyanese are very young.

And they need to develop and promote a strategy that ensures that the average Guyanese benefits from the expected economic boom once oil revenues arrive sometime after 2020.

But I dont see these ageing band of soldiers doing this, nor do I see the AFC ambulance chasers.  

 

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

Iguana posted:

Baseman posted:

You would be surprised where/who Granger and the moderates are now leaning on to fend off PNC hard line loyalists!

Who? You and yuh uncles? Or did they give Irfart a plate of beef curry to help out?

Bai, me uncles left Guyana, done, all wash and tun down, clock struck 12!

I really cannot be more specific!

@Carib

The next PPP presidential candidate will be even more of a Jagdeo stooge than Ramotar was.  Jagdeo is intent in rubbing his greedy little hands to soak up the "oil money" and he wants to ensure that he and his cronies benefit.

Though not a fan of Jagdeo...The potential for this may exist, but I think this is too much of a sweeping generalization...there are too many extant factors involved here for us to make such a statement...who will the candidate be, there is the question of institutional memory, a PPP candidate may be willing, once in power, to demolish the perception of Jagdeo pulling the strings, etc.

"he wants to ensure that he and his cronies benefit."

You are assuming that it will be easy for a new government to continue to do this...even after everyone's antenna will be up and people will be watching...my feeling is that government officials are going to be very careful in the future...

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

The Govt needs to ensure Blacks are adequately employed.  With oil wealth and the threat from the Conquistadors, expansion of the military is in order!  That could absorb an additional 2/3 thousand.

Yes, Blacks are not helpless however, they should not be expected to leverage their advantage in some areas to get a better deal.  They should be fairly compensated for their contribution to the nation as a whole.

The Govt should also look into promoting and supporting businesses that employ Blacks.  Eg, Guyana should try to reclaim it's status as the center for Caricom ship building and other types of fabrication.

The PNC plans for the road network is a crucial step in moving Guyana forward and making it more productive and efficient!

Baseman posted:

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted:

 

 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

The Govt needs to ensure Blacks are adequately employed.  With oil wealth and the threat from the Conquistadors, expansion of the military is in order!  That could absorb an additional 2/3 thousand.

Yes, Blacks are not helpless however, they should not be expected to leverage their advantage in some areas to get a better deal.  They should be fairly compensated for their contribution to the nation as a whole.

The Govt should also look into promoting and supporting businesses that employ Blacks.  Eg, Guyana should try to reclaim it's status as the center for Caricom ship building and other types of fabrication.

The PNC plans for the road network is a crucial step in moving Guyana forward and making it more productive and efficient!

No disagreement here.

I would simply add that regardless of which government is in power, ALL Guyanese are treated fairly. All institutions should strive to promote "diversity and equity"....that includes govt institutions, army, police, govt contracts, businesses, hiring, etc. 

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted: 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

both of y'all 'argue' like self-esteem challenged teenage girls

you can't 'win' on the subject matter so you create a whole new conversation to dominate (smart people call it strawman), expound weightily and at boring length on all kinds of THINGS NOT IN DISPUTE while tenaciously beating a path AROUND and AROUND the thing(s) you are afraid to look in the eye

the wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted: 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

both of y'all 'argue' like self-esteem challenged teenage girls

you can't 'win' on the subject matter so you create a whole new conversation to dominate (smart people call it strawman), expound weightily and at boring length on all kinds of THINGS NOT IN DISPUTE while tenaciously beating a path AROUND and AROUND the thing(s) you are afraid to look in the eye

guerrilla warfare of clowns

Finally, more than 25 contiguous words out of Ronan!

Baseman posted:  

Finally, more than 25 contiguous words out of Ronan!

"contiguous". . . seriously?

smh

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted: 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

both of y'all 'argue' like self-esteem challenged teenage girls

you can't 'win' on the subject matter so you create a whole new conversation to dominate (smart people call it strawman), expound weightily and at boring length on all kinds of THINGS NOT IN DISPUTE while tenaciously beating a path AROUND and AROUND the thing(s) you are afraid to look in the eye

the wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns

“Wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns”?...who creating a straw man now?

I am looking at the BigPicture...everyone here speaking from a tribal perspective...not from a Guyanese perspective...you operating from the same perspective.

Your “Lady in Shining Armor”, shows no indication of representing a break from the past...she is too rough around the edges....no knight in shining armor, no charisma, no national vision for a future Guyana...de same ole “we” and “dem odda people”...

VishMahabir posted:

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted: 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

both of y'all 'argue' like self-esteem challenged teenage girls

you can't 'win' on the subject matter so you create a whole new conversation to dominate (smart people call it strawman), expound weightily and at boring length on all kinds of THINGS NOT IN DISPUTE while tenaciously beating a path AROUND and AROUND the thing(s) you are afraid to look in the eye

the wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns

“Wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns”?...who creating a straw man now?

I am looking at the BigPicture...everyone here speaking from a tribal perspective...not from a Guyanese perspective...you operating from the same perspective.

Your “Lady in Shining Armor”, shows no indication of representing a break from the past...she is too rough around the edges....no knight in shining armor, no charisma, no national vision for a future Guyana...de same ole “we” and “dem odda people”...

your lameass screed is Exhibit A of the pitiful "wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns"

non sequitur piled upon non sequitur . . . sophomoric bromides dressed up in important-sounding clothes  

you seem to not even know what a "straw man" is

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

caribny posted:

ronan posted: 

and, since we are HERE . . . are you willing to acknowledge that Volda Lawrence has been FALSELY accused of “racist” comments as indicated in my lead post here?

Let me make it easy for you. As far as most Guyanese are concerned PNC is code for black and PPP is code for Indians.  You mightn't think this but this is how it is and we have seen this behavior manifested by both sides when they want revenge.

What Volda says she would do the PPP actually did.  It was wrong when they did it and it is wrong for Volda to say this.

As of now the PPP is more likely to win the election.  Their loss was narrow and its clear that the PNC base will not turn out in the record numbers that it did in GT, Linden and Bartica.

So if the PPP does win they can continue to practice their exclusion, and then quote Volda when they are accused of this.  Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense.  They cannot protest against exclusion and then threaten (even in an emotional rant) to exclude.  

I think Ronan is smart enough to understand this point...he needs to step out of his PNC box. 

both of y'all 'argue' like self-esteem challenged teenage girls

you can't 'win' on the subject matter so you create a whole new conversation to dominate (smart people call it strawman), expound weightily and at boring length on all kinds of THINGS NOT IN DISPUTE while tenaciously beating a path AROUND and AROUND the thing(s) you are afraid to look in the eye

the wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns

“Wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns”?...who creating a straw man now?

I am looking at the BigPicture...everyone here speaking from a tribal perspective...not from a Guyanese perspective...you operating from the same perspective.

Your “Lady in Shining Armor”, shows no indication of representing a break from the past...she is too rough around the edges....no knight in shining armor, no charisma, no national vision for a future Guyana...de same ole “we” and “dem odda people”...

your lameass screed is Exhibit A of the pitiful "wear-you-down guerrilla warfare of clowns"

non sequitur piled upon non sequitur . . . sophomoric bromides dressed up in important-sounding clothes  

you seem to not even know what a "straw man" is

Damn!

Banna...I gon get back to you, after I consult with my Noah Webster dictionary...too many big words...and dem words dont sound like Guyanese creole...

But I know a Straw Man when ah see one....

caribny posted:

it isnt just blacks or the PNC which ought to be held t account. Even Gilbakka, a moderate and fair man (or at least I think that he is) seems to believe that all the PPP needs to do is to preach their gospel to black/mixed voters.  Indians just refuse to understand that it is not only they who feel the sting of ethnic insecurity.

Let Gilbakka articulate: the PPP must not neglect its own rural multitudes. It must, imperative must, send out its apostles to the townships too. And they must take the gospel of Saint Marx to those urban multitudes also.

According to St Marx, Indos must love Afros as themselves. According to the Saint, it is easier for a caiman to crawl through the eye of a jute-bag sooja-needle than for a rich man like BK to enter the promised land of milk, honey and plenty.

St Marx also says sick Indos and sick Afros need healing equally. They need schooling equally. They need roads and water supply equally. They need free electricity equally. They must honor their fathers and mothers so that they can live four scores and ten years. They must never forsake the prophets of yesteryear like Burnham and Jagan for their wisdom tooth sake.

This is the gospel PPP must preach across the land, on the highways and waterways and airwaves.

VishMahabir posted:

 

"...how many Indians take the time to understand how blacks felt under the PPP"

Not many...

...but this is the crux of the problem, with Guyana being a divided ethnic society where a win for one group is a loss for the other...racial politics leads to zero-sum politics. The answer is "not many" because Indians see Jagdeo as a "demi-God" in the same way that Afros would consider Granger. The sword cuts both ways...you cant simply blame one group and not the other (before the 23, there was 28).

An Indo can raise the same question about a number of issues also...such as why are so many Indos fired from govt positions, why is the govt so callous towards the sugar workers...yes, I get it...Afros can make the same points about disrespect, discrimination, etc towards Afros under the PPP...its an endless vicious circle of racial distrust ...with no end in sight.

Guyana lost the chance to bridge the racial gap when Dr. Rodney was assassinated.

However....I have made this point before....this problem can only be addressed by the political elites who have to set the norm, change the culture and focus on the politics of accommodation... 

Instead, politicians perpetuate the problem and the rank and file gets fed the same bile.

This is why I think Ronan misses the Big Picture about Volda's rhetoric...which if not tempered will evoke and perpetuate a similar reaction. Sopporters take their cue from their leaders.

"..And this is important because many aren't going to tolerate

---

a return of that era"

Two points about this statement:

1) I believe you are right about this (because Indos do not understand the extent to which the last PPP admin is despised...Luncheon statement, Crum Ewing, 400 Afros killed, Waddell and such).  This is why I have argued that there is no guarantee that the next election will be free and fair (fear of PPP, experience with rigging, the LGE being a wake up call, etc).

2) However, here is where I have a problem with the argument you are making. By condemning Jagdeo and the PPP you are not leaving any hope for redemption of the PPP. Jagdeo cannot run, and there is not guarantee that his successor will be a rubber stamp. It is probably healthy to have a one term govt, and one can only hope that the PPP, should they win in 2020, would be cautioned about the wanton corruption of its past ways....especially if the coalition can get a few convictions.

1.  Based on my FB page most posters are unhappy with Volda's remarks. These are mainly blacks as the Indians seem silent, waiting to see how blacks react.  I cannot recall similar reactions when Jagdeo and others made anti black comments. Like when Rohee's daughter made highly bigoted comments about blacks and Rohee defended her and her remarks were deleted from FB.   I recall excuses being made by Indians.

2. I have said many times that creole Guyanese (African, mixed and Portuguese) can see beyond ethnicity and perceive themselves as "Guyanese" more easily than Indians seem to be able to do.  So this is why when a black person engages in ethnically inflammatory behavior (intended or not) blacks will more readily condemn it.  It is just easier for them to SOMETIMES transcend their "blackness" and see themselves as "Guyanese".  Apparently Indians are less able to, even if they do wish to condemn inflammatory remarks by an Indo Guyanese leader.  It appears as if they fear censure from their own Indians, so remain silent.

3. Rest assured that there is no similarity in how Granger, or Volda are seen by grass roots blacks. Harmon is in fact hated by them.  Look at how the APNU has selected an Indian to run its stronghold, a place where maybe as many as 50% of their votes will have to come from in 2020.  They are willing and able to take this risk because they know that if this Indian, who will be mayor, shows objectivity his "Indianness" will not be held against him.  Can the PPP take the same chances in regions 3 or 6 where most of their votes come from?

And you are correct. Based on its track record I cannot see the PPP as anything other than an Indian dominated entity which has no respect for people of African descent.  The onus is on the PPP to prove me wrong.  I judge the PPP from their behavior since 1957.  Given my age the only image I have of that entity is one which is hostile to my very being as a human.  So don't tell me about 1953 to 1957 because I like 95% of the population wasn't born then.

To quote a Buxtonian who reacted to Jagdeo calling the entire village a "bunch of savages", the PPP "are a bunch of black haters".  This said at a forum in Brooklyn to senior PPP officials who encountered a very hostile crowd after Jagdeo had the phantoms slaughtering blacks, the good, bad and the innocent willy nilly.

Note that when this accusation was said NONE of these PPP officials were able to mount a defense of the PPP because they knew that blatant lies would further enrage an already angry crowd.

Gilbakka posted:

 

According to St Marx, Indos must love Afros as themselves.

Like how massas were told to "love their slaves, and the slaves their massas".

Sorry this is a stupid reaction.  Until the PPP deals with why Afros and mixed people hate and fear them they will NOT get their votes.   Picking black tokens and pictures with blacks by Jagdeo and Ramotar didn't work.

VishMahabir posted:

 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

Here are truths.

1.  At least 30% of the voters self identify as "black" and at least 40% as "Indian".  This means that APNU has to win another 20% whereas the PPP needs to win at least 10%.  Clearly the PPP has a built in advantage.

2. While most Indians in Guyana aren't rich most rich people in Guyana are Indians so the PPP also enjoys an advantage in funding its election campaign.

So clearly APNU and its coalition partners need to run a shrewder and more cunning game than does the PPP.  As is the PPP has only lost won election and in fact has obtained the majority of the votes in all but 3 of them.  I don't include the elections of the Burnham era as clearly these were rigged.

It is also a fact that the PNC has never on its own won a free and fair election.

VishMahabir posted:

 

"he wants to ensure that he and his cronies benefit."

You are assuming that it will be easy for a new government to continue to do this...even after everyone's antenna will be up and people will be watching...my feeling is that government officials are going to be very careful in the future...

Exxon and other multinationals care little about the fate of the poor nations that they do business with. In fact the love the greedily corrupt as these challenge them less.

Guyana is a corrupt nation and it doesn't appear as if elections change this fact.  So as of now both tribal elites are greedily rubbing their hands in anticipation. Jagdeo's problem is that he has to win an election to do so and fears that Exxon might prefer the devil who they already are dealing with (Coalition) than one who they aren't (PPP), and who knows what resources they might ingest into the election to get their desired outcome.

I have yet to see an empowered Jagdeo conceding to anyone. So yes the PPP candidate will be his stooge. We just have to see who this stooge will be.

caribny posted:

VishMahabir posted:

 

"Given that blacks are numerically outnumbered and economically dominated they can ill afford to encourage this nonsense."

This may be true but Afros are not totally helpless, as you seem to point out here. To say that Indos dominate the economy is a fallacy...a few Indos are filthy rich...but the majority of them (like Blacks and Amerindians) are poor...I have seen this fallacy being peddled and it has been a colonial construct which is being used to inflame passions. 

This myth has been peddled and remains unchallenged. In addition, an argument can be made that Afros control real power in the police, army, government, etc, but somehow this argument has not been advances. In addition, Afros can exercise power in the sheer fact that they can resort to protest...as they have effectively done in the past...

Here are truths.

1.  At least 30% of the voters self identify as "black" and at least 40% as "Indian".  This means that APNU has to win another 20% whereas the PPP needs to win at least 10%.  Clearly the PPP has a built in advantage.

2. While most Indians in Guyana aren't rich most rich people in Guyana are Indians so the PPP also enjoys an advantage in funding its election campaign.

So clearly APNU and its coalition partners need to run a shrewder and more cunning game than does the PPP.  As is the PPP has only lost won election and in fact has obtained the majority of the votes in all but 3 of them.  I don't include the elections of the Burnham era as clearly these were rigged.

It is also a fact that the PNC has never on its own won a free and fair election.

A growing electorate  are the Dugla , Amerindians and others be it non Blacks and Indis

Baseman posted:

 

 

Yes, Blacks are not helpless however, they should not be expected to leverage their advantage in some areas to get a better deal.  They should be fairly compensated for their contribution to the nation as a whole.

The Govt should also look into promoting and supporting businesses that employ Blacks.  Eg, Guyana should try to reclaim it's status as the center for Caricom ship building and other types of fabrication.

The PNC plans for the road network is a crucial step in moving Guyana forward and making it more productive and efficient!

The gov't needs to address the underlying causes of ethnic insecurity in Guyana.

For blacks its clearly their self perceived weakness on the economic front which renders them dependent on the ethnicity of who has political power.   Too often they see power in the hands of an Indian so there comes the notion of being vulnerable to this group, even though its only a minute portion who have this economic dominance.

I will leave it to others as to the root causes of Indian ethnic insecurity.

I will suggest that until Africans/mixed and Indians cease to see themselves being forced to select tribal leaders for their own protection Guyana will get no where.  This because gov'ts respond when held accountable.  This is why Barbados is better run than Guyana, despite having greater challenges than we do. The GDP of Barbados is DOUBLE that of Guyana.  Yes a tiny island that a plane can cross in 5 minutes!

kp posted:

 

A growing electorate  are the Dugla , Amerindians and others be it non Blacks and Indis

When I see where the mixed identified people live they are in regions 2, 4, 7 and 10. This based on the 2012 census.  Region 2 includes the Pomeroon.

Unless you are calling people with Amerindian ancestry mixed, or those "blacks" who chose to identify as "mixed" because one of their grandparents, or even great grandparents, wasn't black as douglas, I don't think that you are right. Even Volda is now calling herself "mixed" and Trotman does so all of the time.

Trinidad breaks out its mixed identified population as "dougla" and "other mixed".  2/3 check the "other mixed" box.  Guyana doesn't so we don't know.

ronan posted:

 

you can't 'win' on the subject matter

And this is your problem.  You want to "win" an argument. Vishmahabir and I are exchanging our opinions and I suspect learning from each other. 

One thing I value from him is the fact that he has to reconcile himself to hearing the views from two tribes so might have a perspective that those of us who are solidly in one tribe, so not hearing both views expressed honestly, might not have. 

The second point is that he either left Guyana as a kid, or was born here so he has more "freedom" to express his perspectives than those of us more solidly grounded in our respective Guyanese bubbles.

No one is 100% "right" so there are no arguments to win.

@Vish

With due respect to you the GDF and the GPF are conditioned to protect the status quo even if its isn't the party which most of them support.

1. We had the spectacle of the PNC accusing the GPF/GDF of abusing poor black boys and the PPP rushing to defend them.

2. If the GDF/GPF were hostile to the PPP there would have been a coup when Roger Khan was wreaking havoc and "restoring lawfulness" would have been the "excuse".

During the Jagdeo era he had control over those entities and selected their leadership because he knows that the mid level ranks in these entities never revolt against the leadership. He learned this from Burnham who was determined to ensure that the attempted coup in T&T in the early 70s wasn't going to happen in Guyana.

In addition the notion that the majority of blacks support protests is a fallacy.  It disrupts business which means that people are being inconvenienced. I was in Guyana at a time when there were protests and every time it occurred the vendors had to shut down their stalls and move their inventory. They were NOT happy.  This is why there haven't been large protests for at least 10 years.