sachin_05 posted:

You don't have to believe argument. If you happen to visit Guyana, stop by John Fernand rice mill in Fairfield Mahaicony and talk to the security guard. He is one that was a career soldier never migrate - family man dose'nt drink, proudly riding his lifetime achievement big ben bicycle to his security job..

Why would I need to check with anyone when I was in the GDF myself? That person's current status has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Many former Afro GDF members have to resort to menial jobs after service. Last year we visited a home for veterans where former soldiers, now homeless, reside. They were all Afros. Again, your argument is BS.

Tola posted:

The Indian/African socializing I photographed at GDF weddings and friendships of both races I know,  don't seems to indicate a racial problem in the GDF.

In your opinion, what seems to restrict more Indians from joining the GDF ?  

PPP propaganda that generated fear of the black man and prevents any socializing by stigmatizing Afros as murderers and thieves. Last year I attended a family picnic in Camp Ayangana and invited some relatives. One of my guests, after a little socializing, pulled me aside and expressed surprise. I asked at what. He said, "you know everybody so respectful." I asked what he meant. He said, "you know... black people." I told him, "you and your family need to come down from the verandah and socialize with your country people." Fortunately, I didn't have to join the army to understand the value of a person has nothing to do with race because my father, a big strong coolie man, never displayed racial sentiments.

Sean posted:

Anta, it is not only an Indo problem. It is also an Afro problem too. The mistrust is what creates division. 

Look at the positive side, twenty percent of the population is now mixed. It does make a statement. 

Please explain how the notable absence of Indos in Guyana's security and defence forces is an Afro problem.

antabanta posted:
Sean posted:

Anta, it is not only an Indo problem. It is also an Afro problem too. The mistrust is what creates division. 

Look at the positive side, twenty percent of the population is now mixed. It does make a statement. 

Please explain how the notable absence of Indos in Guyana's security and defence forces is an Afro problem.

You misunderstood my comments. The absence on Indos in the army is not an Afro problem. I was specifically referring the mistrust and misinformation that Indos and Afros have for each other. 

 I can further add that Jackass Jagan was instrumental in preventing Indos from joining the army by scaring Indos.

We cannot demy that some Indos shared horror stories when they joined the army during the Burnham era but many stated otherwise. 

The biggest question is why did Indos still stay away from the army during the 23 years which the PPP governed ? 

Let's be honest, most parents in Guyana NEVER set out to have their children  join the forces, there are far better choices. It's better to be a teacher, a nurse, an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer etc., last on the ladder is being a soldier. So many Indians were able to choose a more desirable and less risk occupation. Having said that, it does not mean the Afros did not want better for their children but it is an economic thing/affordability.

 I have two children, I spent a lot to educate them. Today one is a Doctor and the other is a Lawyer in the US. I told them to go and earn NEW money and don't expect much when I die. The Doctor along with two others are building a start-up company, they already have investors offering millions to join, it's an app. for hospitals and doctors to benefit.

 What I am trying to say, as parents give guidance to your children at a young age and when the become teens they will make the right choice, teach them well.

kp posted:

Let's be honest, most parents in Guyana NEVER set out to have their children  join the forces, there are far better choices. It's better to be a teacher, a nurse, an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer etc., last on the ladder is being a soldier. So many Indians were able to choose a more desirable and less risk occupation. Having said that, it does not mean the Afros did not want better for their children but it is an economic thing/affordability.

 I have two children, I spent a lot to educate them. Today one is a Doctor and the other is a Lawyer in the US. I told them to go and earn NEW money and don't expect much when I die. The Doctor along with two others are building a start-up company, they already have investors offering millions to join, it's an app. for hospitals and doctors to benefit.

 What I am trying to say, as parents give guidance to your children at a young age and when the become teens they will make the right choice, teach them well.

You might find this hard to accept but there are many Afros with similar or better success stories. For whom is soldier last on the ladder? There are many people for whom it is first on the ladder.

antabanta posted:
Tola posted:

The Indian/African socializing I photographed at GDF weddings and friendships of both races I know,  don't seems to indicate a racial problem in the GDF.

In your opinion, what seems to restrict more Indians from joining the GDF ?  

PPP propaganda that generated fear of the black man and prevents any socializing by stigmatizing Afros as murderers and thieves. Last year I attended a family picnic in Camp Ayangana and invited some relatives. One of my guests, after a little socializing, pulled me aside and expressed surprise. I asked at what. He said, "you know everybody so respectful." I asked what he meant. He said, "you know... black people." I told him, "you and your family need to come down from the verandah and socialize with your country people." Fortunately, I didn't have to join the army to understand the value of a person has nothing to do with race because my father, a big strong coolie man, never displayed racial sentiments.

Thanks. I had a similar experience  in Guyana, that was resolved in scouting.  My mother attended primary school with Cheddi and my grandfather was a close friend of his father at Port Mourant. The PPP and Indians were our life.  My family did not directly displayed any racial tendencies, but their political leaders did by fear, for us to vote for an Indian party. 

I lived at Old Albion that was mostly an Indian village and  I don't remember the split between Cheddi and Burnham.  But I can remember the dislike  for Africans as I was growing up, mainly at Port Mourant, with relatives.

This dislike was intensified when an Indian woman had a baby for an African man. There was fighting with cutlasses and axe handles on the streets.  

At about 1962, I was like your relatives. I did not socialize with Africans, or had any close African friends.

But during this time, I was one of the leaders of Albion scout troop and attended many scouter's training camps at Camp Jubilee near the airport. At first it was terrible uncomfortable being with Africans in the same troop and sleeping in the same tent. But after a while I discovered they were not different from my friends at Albion. They get hurt, played practical jokes and laughed at silly things, just like my Albion friends did. They also had Moms and Dads, sisters and brothers, aunties and uncles, just like me.  

Scout trainers like Fr. Bernard Darke and Gomes mixed the races in each patrol and we had to do everything together for a week, including competing with other patrols. 

This was a huge breakthrough for me regarding knowing Africans in Guyana. Many of these guys remained close friends for decades.

This experience has allowed us to fund development projects in Uganda and Tanzania, as well as in Guyana. Where we have many African and Indian friends.

I believe Guyana racial disharmony started  when the two main political parties were initiated. Even today, they continue to play one race against the other, for political gain.  Without thinking of the long range consequences,  that might become worse for future generations.  

   

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

ksazma posted:

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

That feeling of not belonging is largely due to PPP propaganda that drove fear and mistrust into Indos. However, there is quite a decent proportion of Afros who also migrated. So I think migration is the ambition of many regardless of ethnicity.

Anta, you is a smart chap. I like your openness and fairness. Guyanese need to discuss issues in a transparent manner. Indos and Afros need to be open about their fears and reservations. I can safely say that Jagan and Burnham inflicted this disease on our people. 

antabanta posted:
sachin_05 posted:

You don't have to believe argument. If you happen to visit Guyana, stop by John Fernand rice mill in Fairfield Mahaicony and talk to the security guard. He is one that was a career soldier never migrate - family man dose'nt drink, proudly riding his lifetime achievement big ben bicycle to his security job..

Why would I need to check with anyone when I was in the GDF myself? That person's current status has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Many former Afro GDF members have to resort to menial jobs after service. Last year we visited a home for veterans where former soldiers, now homeless, reside. They were all Afros. Again, your argument is BS.

The reason why I want you to talk to this veteran yourself is because I don't want to tell you what he says about promotion practices that would be hearsay. 

So who should the coolie boys should look up to as role model to join the GDF - this guy who end up as a watchman or you who end up migrating after your four years? The  blacks kids has Grainger, Mclean and barrage of others that make it to top ranks. 

antabanta posted:
ksazma posted:

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

That feeling of not belonging is largely due to PPP propaganda that drove fear and mistrust into Indos. However, there is quite a decent proportion of Afros who also migrated. So I think migration is the ambition of many regardless of ethnicity.

I don't agree with you here bai. In a country where Indians outnumbered Afros more than two to one, everywhere you look, Afros were placed in supervisory roles while the vast majority of Indians had to contend with being in a subordinate role or being unemployed. No doubt Indian teachers outnumbered Afro ones but that is where it mostly ended for Indians in great numbers. With the government controlling around 73% of the workforce and with Afros given undeserved supervisory roles, no Indian needed any PPP propaganda to know that they didn't belong in Guyana. No doubt, many Indians went into private businesses to escape PNC marginalization and turned out doing well, even better than many Afros and Indians who were working for government corporations. We are seeing a return of that practice again.

No doubt both Afros and Indians have been busy with migration so I am not suggesting that Afros don't also have the desire to migrate to seek a better life. I was just pointing out that Indians looked beyond region 10 because they didn't feel that they belonged in Guyana. I don't know if Afros also feel they don't belong in Guyana. Cribby thinks they feel that they fully belong there.

ksazma posted:
antabanta posted:
ksazma posted:

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

That feeling of not belonging is largely due to PPP propaganda that drove fear and mistrust into Indos. However, there is quite a decent proportion of Afros who also migrated. So I think migration is the ambition of many regardless of ethnicity.

In a country where Indians outnumbered Afros more than two to one,

everywhere you look, Afros were placed in supervisory roles while the vast majority of Indians had to contend with being in a subordinate role or being unemployed.

What era was that ? are you referring to population ?

Sean posted:

Anta, it is not only an Indo problem. It is also an Afro problem too. The mistrust is what creates division. 

Look at the positive side, twenty percent of the population is now mixed. It does make a statement. 

I agree!  Even cuzz Ralphy just admitted being a mixed race!  23 & Me can uncover all the hide-outs then PPP cark duk!

sachin_05 posted:
antabanta posted:
sachin_05 posted:

You don't have to believe argument. If you happen to visit Guyana, stop by John Fernand rice mill in Fairfield Mahaicony and talk to the security guard. He is one that was a career soldier never migrate - family man dose'nt drink, proudly riding his lifetime achievement big ben bicycle to his security job..

Why would I need to check with anyone when I was in the GDF myself? That person's current status has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Many former Afro GDF members have to resort to menial jobs after service. Last year we visited a home for veterans where former soldiers, now homeless, reside. They were all Afros. Again, your argument is BS.

The reason why I want you to talk to this veteran yourself is because I don't want to tell you what he says about promotion practices that would be hearsay. 

So who should the coolie boys should look up to as role model to join the GDF - this guy who end up as a watchman or you who end up migrating after your four years? The  blacks kids has Grainger, Mclean and barrage of others that make it to top ranks. 

I could accept discrimination in promotion as a factor so many Indians feel they won't have a career.  But to say Indians are not joining because of not taking orders, etc is nonsense!  But there were a few Indians who made it to the top, Joe Singh, that Panday guy, etc.

Django posted:
ksazma posted:
antabanta posted:
ksazma posted:

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

That feeling of not belonging is largely due to PPP propaganda that drove fear and mistrust into Indos. However, there is quite a decent proportion of Afros who also migrated. So I think migration is the ambition of many regardless of ethnicity.

In a country where Indians outnumbered Afros more than two to one,

everywhere you look, Afros were placed in supervisory roles while the vast majority of Indians had to contend with being in a subordinate role or being unemployed.

What era was that ? are you referring to population ?

Yes. Do the math. What was the ratio of Indians to Afros in population versus the ratio of Indians to Afros in government jobs in the 70s. And while we are at it, what is the ratio of Indians to Afros in population versus the ratio of Indians to Afros in government jobs today.

ksazma posted:
Django posted:
ksazma posted:
antabanta posted:
ksazma posted:

I think many are drawn to the armed forces because of pride for country. Being a soldier greatly increases the chance of untimely death so it must take a lot of pride and commitment to voluntarily join the armed forces. Unfortunately since the 70s many Indians didn’t feel like they belonged in Guyana so developing that pride for country was not a goal. Indians have already begun looking to region 11 and beyond.

That feeling of not belonging is largely due to PPP propaganda that drove fear and mistrust into Indos. However, there is quite a decent proportion of Afros who also migrated. So I think migration is the ambition of many regardless of ethnicity.

In a country where Indians outnumbered Afros more than two to one,

everywhere you look, Afros were placed in supervisory roles while the vast majority of Indians had to contend with being in a subordinate role or being unemployed.

What era was that ? are you referring to population ?

Yes. Do the math. What was the ratio of Indians to Afros in population versus the ratio of Indians to Afros in government jobs in the 70s. And while we are at it, what is the ratio of Indians to Afros in population versus the ratio of Indians to Afros in government jobs today.

You need to to check the stats on Guyana population, it was never 2:1 East Indians to Africans. The highest percentage East Indians peaked  is in 1980. 

1960  East Indians 47.8% ,Africans 32.8 %

1980 , East Indians 51 %, Africans 30.8%

 From then on East Indian population declined 1991,48.6% ,2002 ,43.4% ,2012 ,39.8 % . Africans population 1991 ,32.3 % ,2002 ,  30.2 %, 2012 ,29.8 %.

Regarding Government Employment , there is no doubt Africans are majority employed. Stats are needed to arrive at the correct ratio.

sachin_05 posted:
antabanta posted:
sachin_05 posted:

You don't have to believe argument. If you happen to visit Guyana, stop by John Fernand rice mill in Fairfield Mahaicony and talk to the security guard. He is one that was a career soldier never migrate - family man dose'nt drink, proudly riding his lifetime achievement big ben bicycle to his security job..

Why would I need to check with anyone when I was in the GDF myself? That person's current status has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Many former Afro GDF members have to resort to menial jobs after service. Last year we visited a home for veterans where former soldiers, now homeless, reside. They were all Afros. Again, your argument is BS.

The reason why I want you to talk to this veteran yourself is because I don't want to tell you what he says about promotion practices that would be hearsay. 

So who should the coolie boys should look up to as role model to join the GDF - this guy who end up as a watchman or you who end up migrating after your four years? The  blacks kids has Grainger, Mclean and barrage of others that make it to top ranks. 

Brig Joe Singh, Col Nazrul Hussein (recently retd), Col K Persaud (retd), Col Ramkarran Doodnauth (still active), Poshanand Tahal, dep Dir of Prisons (retd), Col Jawahar Persaud (recently retd), to name a few. These are all senior officers that I know personally. Add those I can't remember, am not familiar with, and others in the past two to three decades. Why do they need role models? If role models are needed, can they not aspire to be role models? I did not enlist because of any role model.

BTW, I was critically involved in the promotions of all my subordinates who were up for promotions, me, an Indo officer.

Tola posted:
antabanta posted:
Tola posted:

The Indian/African socializing I photographed at GDF weddings and friendships of both races I know,  don't seems to indicate a racial problem in the GDF.

In your opinion, what seems to restrict more Indians from joining the GDF ?  

PPP propaganda that generated fear of the black man and prevents any socializing by stigmatizing Afros as murderers and thieves. Last year I attended a family picnic in Camp Ayangana and invited some relatives. One of my guests, after a little socializing, pulled me aside and expressed surprise. I asked at what. He said, "you know everybody so respectful." I asked what he meant. He said, "you know... black people." I told him, "you and your family need to come down from the verandah and socialize with your country people." Fortunately, I didn't have to join the army to understand the value of a person has nothing to do with race because my father, a big strong coolie man, never displayed racial sentiments.

Thanks. I had a similar experience  in Guyana, that was resolved in scouting.  My mother attended primary school with Cheddi and my grandfather was a close friend of his father at Port Mourant. The PPP and Indians were our life.  My family did not directly displayed any racial tendencies, but their political leaders did by fear, for us to vote for an Indian party. 

I lived at Old Albion that was mostly an Indian village and  I don't remember the split between Cheddi and Burnham.  But I can remember the dislike  for Africans as I was growing up, mainly at Port Mourant, with relatives.

This dislike was intensified when an Indian woman had a baby for an African man. There was fighting with cutlasses and axe handles on the streets.  

At about 1962, I was like your relatives. I did not socialize with Africans, or had any close African friends.

But during this time, I was one of the leaders of Albion scout troop and attended many scouter's training camps at Camp Jubilee near the airport. At first it was terrible uncomfortable being with Africans in the same troop and sleeping in the same tent. But after a while I discovered they were not different from my friends at Albion. They get hurt, played practical jokes and laughed at silly things, just like my Albion friends did. They also had Moms and Dads, sisters and brothers, aunties and uncles, just like me.  

Scout trainers like Fr. Bernard Darke and Gomes mixed the races in each patrol and we had to do everything together for a week, including competing with other patrols. 

This was a huge breakthrough for me regarding knowing Africans in Guyana. Many of these guys remained close friends for decades.

This experience has allowed us to fund development projects in Uganda and Tanzania, as well as in Guyana. Where we have many African and Indian friends.

I believe Guyana racial disharmony started  when the two main political parties were initiated. Even today, they continue to play one race against the other, for political gain.  Without thinking of the long range consequences,  that might become worse for future generations.  

   

C. Jargon stated that his father's closest friends were all Africans. Was your grandfather really a close acquaintance of the Jagans instead of friend? 

Tola posted:
antabanta posted:
Tola posted:

The Indian/African socializing I photographed at GDF weddings and friendships of both races I know,  don't seems to indicate a racial problem in the GDF.

In your opinion, what seems to restrict more Indians from joining the GDF ?  

PPP propaganda that generated fear of the black man and prevents any socializing by stigmatizing Afros as murderers and thieves. Last year I attended a family picnic in Camp Ayangana and invited some relatives. One of my guests, after a little socializing, pulled me aside and expressed surprise. I asked at what. He said, "you know everybody so respectful." I asked what he meant. He said, "you know... black people." I told him, "you and your family need to come down from the verandah and socialize with your country people." Fortunately, I didn't have to join the army to understand the value of a person has nothing to do with race because my father, a big strong coolie man, never displayed racial sentiments.

Thanks. I had a similar experience  in Guyana, that was resolved in scouting.  My mother attended primary school with Cheddi and my grandfather was a close friend of his father at Port Mourant. The PPP and Indians were our life.  My family did not directly displayed any racial tendencies, but their political leaders did by fear, for us to vote for an Indian party. 

I lived at Old Albion that was mostly an Indian village and  I don't remember the split between Cheddi and Burnham.  But I can remember the dislike  for Africans as I was growing up, mainly at Port Mourant, with relatives.

This dislike was intensified when an Indian woman had a baby for an African man. There was fighting with cutlasses and axe handles on the streets.  

At about 1962, I was like your relatives. I did not socialize with Africans, or had any close African friends.

But during this time, I was one of the leaders of Albion scout troop and attended many scouter's training camps at Camp Jubilee near the airport. At first it was terrible uncomfortable being with Africans in the same troop and sleeping in the same tent. But after a while I discovered they were not different from my friends at Albion. They get hurt, played practical jokes and laughed at silly things, just like my Albion friends did. They also had Moms and Dads, sisters and brothers, aunties and uncles, just like me.  

Scout trainers like Fr. Bernard Darke and Gomes mixed the races in each patrol and we had to do everything together for a week, including competing with other patrols. 

This was a huge breakthrough for me regarding knowing Africans in Guyana. Many of these guys remained close friends for decades.

This experience has allowed us to fund development projects in Uganda and Tanzania, as well as in Guyana. Where we have many African and Indian friends.

I believe Guyana racial disharmony started  when the two main political parties were initiated. Even today, they continue to play one race against the other, for political gain.  Without thinking of the long range consequences,  that might become worse for future generations.  

   

C. Jargon stated that his father's closest friends were all Africans. Was your grandfather really a close acquaintance of the Jagans instead of friend? 

One of the things that discourages a person from replying to a post is when assumptions are made, or when they come here with 'facts' that they  read, or are told by someone else.  Instead of information from people who might have personal experience.  So its better to leave them to wallow in their shit post. Plus where do people have the time to spend hours and hours on GNI.

You ever try to discuss with a person who might feel the PPP is better than the PNC, when both races have a right to Guyana ?

I believe C. Jargon means C. Jagan. Numerous times I have seen his father having drinks with my grandfather at my GF home and hang out together at the race course, where my GF trained sugar estate race horses.  Two of Cheddi brothers  were my friends, one was also the FIL of my friend. We attended many social events with the Jagan family in Canada, US and Guyana, that I documented. 

In 2007, when I video recorded Janet Jagan  at Freedom House  regarding her personal  life with Cheddi and their family. She mentioned how Cheddi father did not want her to see him drunk and did all kinds of things to avoid her, during this time.

Its up to you what you want to believe on GNI, but when I ignore a post, its because I feel the person is not speaking from their mouth.  I also feel GNI discussion is a good example what Guyana might  continue to become.

Thanks Cain, I hope he got both answers.  Or what time do they fire the nine o'clock gun in Vancouver ?   

Sean posted:

Bai Tola. This is GNI, it's not professors debating at a forum. 

Well, Bhai Labba is the only professor here with his Cane juice stand.

You are too naïve to think that your actions here don't influence students in GY, who read GNI.  They see posters here as educators, who live in a gutter, that they become.  

Thus this site is a true reflection of what is on the ground in Guyana. 

OK, so if they see who live in the gutter, how come they still take it in ?  I have to disagree with you for now. Don't underestimate the next generation, they are a lot smarter. 

GNI is full of old heads. The only younger poster here is Vish and he behaves more badly than the old timers. He was cussing up yesterday. 

Tola posted:

One of the things that discourages a person from replying to a post is when assumptions are made, or when they come here with 'facts' that they  read, or are told by someone else.  Instead of information from people who might have personal experience.  So its better to leave them to wallow in their shit post. Plus where do people have the time to spend hours and hours on GNI.

You ever try to discuss with a person who might feel the PPP is better than the PNC, when both races have a right to Guyana ?

I believe C. Jargon means C. Jagan. Numerous times I have seen his father having drinks with my grandfather at my GF home and hang out together at the race course, where my GF trained sugar estate race horses.  Two of Cheddi brothers  were my friends, one was also the FIL of my friend. We attended many social events with the Jagan family in Canada, US and Guyana, that I documented. 

In 2007, when I video recorded Janet Jagan  at Freedom House  regarding her personal  life with Cheddi and their family. She mentioned how Cheddi father did not want her to see him drunk and did all kinds of things to avoid her, during this time.

Its up to you what you want to believe on GNI, but when I ignore a post, its because I feel the person is not speaking from their mouth.  I also feel GNI discussion is a good example what Guyana might  continue to become.

Thanks Cain, I hope he got both answers.  Or what time do they fire the nine o'clock gun in Vancouver ?   

Tola how come you were never ever invited to C. Jargon's house for a Sunday evening roast chicken dinner with the Denbows, Dummets and Austins if you were that close.

Sean posted:

OK, so if they see who live in the gutter, how come they still take it in ?  I have to disagree with you for now. Don't underestimate the next generation, they are a lot smarter. 

GNI is full of old heads. The only younger poster here is Vish and he behaves more badly than the old timers. He was cussing up yesterday. 

Nah don’t let Bugger BT Vish misleads you, he is no youngster... he’s a old rag. Skelly does help him out.. you know what I mean. 

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