Asking whether the PPP and PNC are insular parties is like asking whether Malcolm X was black. I agree they are insular and divided and politically we are like 2 tribes. The question is why. It is because each major race fears each other and for good reason. I acknowledge the racism aimed at Indians by Burnham's PNC for 28 years. Are the Indians posting here willing to acknowledge the racist policies of the PPP toward black folks, including the death squads? NO. And therein lies the problem.

This fear of each other began in colonial times. I'll give  my perspective and you all are free to disagree with it. I'm willing to learn. Black people predated Indians in Guyana. Indians were brought as indentured labor to reduce the bargaining power of blacks freed from slavery. While Indians submitted to British rule, blacks were having their farms on the coast flooded and more.

Secondly, the disposition of Indians toward the Africans, where the African was seen as a sub human. This persists today. Examine the posts of Ugli, Nehru, Dave, Skeldon Man and other Indians posting here and you see it. In the 21st century, the Indian Admin Amral called a black woman a baboon and Demerara Guy followed it up with baboon pics. This is the Indian mindset toward black people in the 21st century. Can you imagine what it was at the genesis of this conflict?

Then came the BGEIA, an organization created by elite Indians for the sole purpose of flooding Guyana with Indians, increasing the majority and relegating the black man back to the slave status he fought to get out of. Yes, they wanted us to be slaves in a land we were brought to as captives, dug the canals, built the infrastructure and farmed the land. These Indians were telling us we had no place there and that it was Indian land. They wanted it ALL.

This continued into independence times, including the period when Burnham got wind of 'apna jaat' or something like that - the plan to subjugate black people. Blacks were (and still are) a minority back then. Facing a racist Indian mindset where they saw themselves as wards of the state and "owners" of Guyana, how were blacks to respond? Just cave in? Become slaves to indians again?

That is the genesis of it from the black side. I am not excusing or agreeing with Burnham's racism toward Indians, but understand the fear of black people losing their country. Then along comes PPP rule and 23 years of institutionalized racism. Bigots here like Nehru and Dave feel that black people should worship Jagdeo for some BBQ chicken and Banks beer!!!! Yes, that is the mindset of the racist Indian in Guyana who sees the entire country as THEIRS!!!!

I will not speak for Indians, other than to repeat what I stated before - they were victims of racism under Burnham's PNC. I get that. Hence their fear of black rule.

We cannot be a country unless this is addressed. It is my belief that the Indian mindset has not changed much. They are as racist and "entitled" as before. My 2 cents. And in this lil sandbox, the openly racist posters are Indians. Even down to the moderators who tolerate open bigotry and even join in it. This is what black people must accept in what is THEIR land too?

Until there is dialog, an acknowledgment of the racism on both sides, and an understanding of each other, we go nowhere. Oh, and let's not forget the constitution reform that removes winner takes all, and policies that disallow discrimination toward ANYONE!.

I agree with most of what you said above and the areas I do not agree with is for another venue. What you stated there affirms a long and tortuous history of tribalism that has been our lot for our entire history.

My title is insubstantial. I should have asked instead: "What are we to do given our lot as a divided nation that is maintained by the two tribal parties." 

Burnham, for all his moral distribution, did try to magnify national symbols and craft slogans to bind us. Alas these failed as a summoning creed because he was so intent on being a dictator and that means having close confidants who were racists to maintain his regime.

We must think of what can be done to save ourselves. We cannot have villainous corruptions like Jagdeo or aloof pretend Jesus Grager rob us or neglect us so this divisive system is maintained for the benefit of the elites.

@Former Member

Yes, Burnham took a stab at nationhood. My recollection - Indians for the most part wanted no part of it. They even vilified the Indians who tried to promote Guyana as a nation.

Realizing the importance of minimizing debt, Burnham promoted FCH - feed, clothe, house the nation and emphasized the use of local products. Buy local, eat local, etc. Great ideas, but not executed properly. However, the intention was commendable. We see how the lack of such has devastated the nation. Today, every government is scrambling to set up local industry to no avail.

How did Indians respond to FCH? They saw it as "discrimination" against them. Burnham didn't want them to make roti. Well, didn't black people make bread with flour too? Weren't we likewise affected? NO, the Indian saw only himself as the victim!

Granted, FCH was not well thought out and rolled out too quickly, before local substitutes and/or alternatives were identified.

And yes, Burnham's good intentions were overshadowed by his megalomania.

BURNHAM WAS A DAAG!!!

I disagree with your views on the Admin

Ray posted:

I disagree with your views on the Admin

You can disagree all you want, but you and Amral's fingerprints are all over the tolerance of open bigotry and hate on this site. Amral is actually a partaker in it, you just tolerant of it, aiding and abetting the promotion of bigotry. I do not want to discuss it here and detract from D2's thread.

Iguana posted:

Ray posted:

I disagree with your views on the Admin

You can disagree all you want, but you and Amral's fingerprints are all over the tolerance of open bigotry and hate on this site. Amral is actually a partaker in it, you just tolerant of it, aiding and abetting the promotion of bigotry. I do not want to discuss it here and detract from D2's thread.

I think Ray is trying to change, that's why he started his thread yesterday.  

Look who is talkin  Sophia Univ is very good at teaching people to be shameless!!

Good posts by Iguana and D2.

Idle bigots now actively trying to derail the thread with "daag", "sophia" and copy and paste mumbo jumbo. Can share nothing constructive. Proves my point.

All party go be insular. All abie a seh is dem must use open primary. We not accepting dem rig internal eleckshuns and show of hands anymore. It na wuk well for Guyana. Abie need to mek sure dem election in party audit. We see Burnham and Jagdeo dominate dem party for dem ethnic interest but dem give out lil metem and dhal puri to de big one dem from de other racial group. 

Iguana posted:

Ray posted:

I disagree with your views on the Admin

You can disagree all you want, but you and Amral's fingerprints are all over the tolerance of open bigotry and hate on this site. Amral is actually a partaker in it, you just tolerant of it, aiding and abetting the promotion of bigotry. I do not want to discuss it here and detract from D2's thread.

Greenie happy new year bai...a see when yuh poasing snowie rowie does not poase. Ayoo using de same machine? Hey hey hey...

Both sides are equally racist but they express if different ways.  The PNC institutionalized it to the point of quasi apartheid.  Indians show it in different ways. I believe Indians are less racist in the deeper meaning!  Indians are more insensitive to the issues of race. 

The PPP needs to bring more Afros into the fold in a meaningful way!  

Labba posted:

Iguana posted:

Ray posted:

I disagree with your views on the Admin

You can disagree all you want, but you and Amral's fingerprints are all over the tolerance of open bigotry and hate on this site. Amral is actually a partaker in it, you just tolerant of it, aiding and abetting the promotion of bigotry. I do not want to discuss it here and detract from D2's thread.

Greenie happy new year bai...a see when yuh poasing snowie rowie does not poase. Ayoo using de same machine? Hey hey hey...

You notice too nah? Hmmm! One ah dem poase from home and den he move to Mc Donalds to use dem WiFi deh. The man nah want fuh get ketch wid de same IP address.

Iguana posted:

Asking whether the PPP and PNC are insular parties is like asking whether Malcolm X was black. I agree they are insular and divided and politically we are like 2 tribes. The question is why. It is because each major race fears each other and for good reason. I acknowledge the racism aimed at Indians by Burnham's PNC for 28 years. Are the Indians posting here willing to acknowledge the racist policies of the PPP toward black folks, including the death squads? NO. And therein lies the problem.

This fear of each other began in colonial times. I'll give  my perspective and you all are free to disagree with it. I'm willing to learn. Black people predated Indians in Guyana. Indians were brought as indentured labor to reduce the bargaining power of blacks freed from slavery. While Indians submitted to British rule, blacks were having their farms on the coast flooded and more.

Secondly, the disposition of Indians toward the Africans, where the African was seen as a sub human. This persists today. Examine the posts of Ugli, Nehru, Dave, Skeldon Man and other Indians posting here and you see it. In the 21st century, the Indian Admin Amral called a black woman a baboon and Demerara Guy followed it up with baboon pics. This is the Indian mindset toward black people in the 21st century. Can you imagine what it was at the genesis of this conflict?

Then came the BGEIA, an organization created by elite Indians for the sole purpose of flooding Guyana with Indians, increasing the majority and relegating the black man back to the slave status he fought to get out of. Yes, they wanted us to be slaves in a land we were brought to as captives, dug the canals, built the infrastructure and farmed the land. These Indians were telling us we had no place there and that it was Indian land. They wanted it ALL.

This continued into independence times, including the period when Burnham got wind of 'apna jaat' or something like that - the plan to subjugate black people. Blacks were (and still are) a minority back then. Facing a racist Indian mindset where they saw themselves as wards of the state and "owners" of Guyana, how were blacks to respond? Just cave in? Become slaves to indians again?

That is the genesis of it from the black side. I am not excusing or agreeing with Burnham's racism toward Indians, but understand the fear of black people losing their country. Then along comes PPP rule and 23 years of institutionalized racism. Bigots here like Nehru and Dave feel that black people should worship Jagdeo for some BBQ chicken and Banks beer!!!! Yes, that is the mindset of the racist Indian in Guyana who sees the entire country as THEIRS!!!!

I will not speak for Indians, other than to repeat what I stated before - they were victims of racism under Burnham's PNC. I get that. Hence their fear of black rule.

We cannot be a country unless this is addressed. It is my belief that the Indian mindset has not changed much. They are as racist and "entitled" as before. My 2 cents. And in this lil sandbox, the openly racist posters are Indians. Even down to the moderators who tolerate open bigotry and even join in it. This is what black people must accept in what is THEIR land too?

Until there is dialog, an acknowledgment of the racism on both sides, and an understanding of each other, we go nowhere. Oh, and let's not forget the constitution reform that removes winner takes all, and policies that disallow discrimination toward ANYONE!.

 

This board gat nuff anti black racism foh true. Everytime dem PPP bais say blackman should accept banks beer and BBQ and hug up Jagdoe it is in FACT racism. And is de wuss form. People have wan right not to get second class citizen. Fact is PPP dominate de society for wan rich Indian and mix people family and fren. And what dem do is give land, gold field and some contract to a few black peopkle who never had de black mass legitimacy. Until Jagdoe and he August month skool gang get dis (Labba went skool Augus month too), dem not likely getting powah. Yuh juss cyant buy everybody. Anyhow, greenie bhai, I want yuh foh get de histry right. Fuss is dem coolies also dig canals and keep dem ole ones blackpeople dig clear. If yuh is a country bai yuh will know dem canals full up wid silt, bizzy bizzy, moca moca, duck stuff and nuff camoudie quick. Six months and yuh having trouble. Somebady had to maintain dem and was dem coolies. Immediate after slavery free black peopkle from Barbados and Africa undercut de slave wage. Was not dem coolies. 

Burnham came into office after an era of a colossal assault on the society  by both parties.  Sir Arthur Lewis headed the first five year plan  and he was met with obvious reluctance by Indians. The symbols and slogans of his "One one people, one people. one destiny" carried a different connotation for Indians. They already know they were being excluded. They just had to look around. Taken to its ultimate extension it meant they were being erased. The creation of  local militias, national service etc were met with the same sentiment  by indians. They saw it as an extension of state control. I know I did.

By the next election all semblance by Burnham to be the gentle dictator was gone. He also had the unfortunate experience of stumbling into a global recession,  which  supplicated foreign. These combined with other mistakes saw the collapse of local industries.  Indians were beginning to flee. Everyone who had a lil cow was selling it to get their kids out of the country. This was so pervasive he had to ban the sale or slaughter of heifers!

The point is we are here based on our history and if one starts with the perspective that humans are essentially good one has to pursue those ends to make our society better. Racism is natural xenophobia at diseased level.  We need to control it. There is only one way...reorganizing how the society functions to lessen distrust. We must have constitutional reform. 

These two parties are still in 60's mode and the quicker we accept that the better we will be at looking at our diseased society and seeking cures. Every cry that anyone make that any of these party has our interest is speaking to their inner demons. They cannot save us as they are. They can only bury us deeper.

Labba posted:

All party go be insular. All abie a seh is dem must use open primary. We not accepting dem rig internal eleckshuns and show of hands anymore. It na wuk well for Guyana. Abie need to mek sure dem election in party audit. We see Burnham and Jagdeo dominate dem party for dem ethnic interest but dem give out lil metem and dhal puri to de big one dem from de other racial group. 

Given what jagdeo did to cut the knees from under Ramson tells us that the kind of vindictive power move cannot be good. If the candidates are primaried the people will get to see them and accept them or not. No inner cabal of 15 people should ever in our future be allowed to govern our society. 

Baseman posted:

Both sides are equally racist but they express if different ways.  The PNC institutionalized it to the point of quasi apartheid.  Indians show it in different ways. I believe Indians are less racist in the deeper meaning!  Indians are more insensitive to the issues of race. 

The PPP needs to bring more Afros into the fold in a meaningful way!  

Bringing more blacks is merely bring band aid to a tetanus infection. Their use of democratic centralism means black folks will be tools.