caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
so.

Weren't these the people who burnt down the buildings and schools when they were asked to pay a little bit more for their electricity? Who is topping them to be progressive? You want coolies to go build in Linden so they can be ruined when there is an election?

Of course you forgot that the PPP callously gunned them down and several people died and more were injured. And yes YOU and others were rolling over in their blood screaming in your usual bigotry about "good for dem!".

But go ahead Rosehall will starve now because Jagdeo doesnt give a damn about them. He will sell the lands to speculators and charge as much as he can for the Berbice bridge, or force tax payers to bail him and his cronies at some exorbitant price.

The PPP did not gun them down. The PNC police did that because of their violent nature and threats.
Your second paragraph is pure speculation. You always see the doom and gloom of the PPP and still blame them for the blacks not wanting to better themselves. You are lucky the blacks do not have to work for the Chinese!!

 

caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 Anyhow, greenie bhai, I want yuh foh get de histry right. Fuss is dem coolies also dig canals and keep dem ole ones blackpeople dig clear. 

To the contrary well into the period of Indian indenture  blacks were still the canal diggers.  The planters thought that Indians were too weak to do this type of work. Blacks were also concentrated in the factory as well as in the office.  Its the cane cutting, weeding and in-field activities where the Indians were initially placed.  It took a while before they began to dig and maintain ditches.

 

Hey hey hey...yuh givin dem bais some 50% truth dey bai and some anti-coolie stereotype...hey hey hey. When dem Indo numbers increase in the 1870s-80s and after dem start dig new canal and keep dem ole ones clear. Me in de 1980s and 1990s see me mamoo dem cleaning canals foh de cane punts pass...hey hey hey. Dragline was use only after wan few year...hey hey hey. 

D2 posted:
 

Lets get out of the victim mode and try to find some resonance in how we change these attitudes and our country so we can be a nation and enjoy its bounties. No one need to apologize to forge fixes.  The necessity is to halt this overlordism by political parties and re direct our thinking to forcing them to participate in social and political reforms. 

I hope we may explore those reform strategies. 

Since I have come to GNI I have been attacked by raising the fact that blacks ALSO have a gripe based on their experiences. Did I claim that this gripe was specific only to blacks? NO!  Did I claim that blacks were not also guilty of contributing to the Indian gripe? NO!

The denials and the victimhood has been 100% on one side and when even moderates like Kari and Chief wandered into that "PNC must apologize bit" I had to go ballistic.  When you raised the issue of Indian racist attitudes NO Indian came to your defense or attempted to discuss the issue intelligently.

Just a few weeks ago large parts of the PNC base were out rebelling against the Coalition by refusing to vote. I know people who vowed never to support the PNC again because of how they were treated post 2015.  Now the same people are beating Kwekwe drums furiously because they fear the return of Indian dominance with the economic exclusion that this implies.

You cannot diagnose a problem and craft a solution until you know what that problem is.  And until people are open and willing to listen we will not move forward. Face it on GNI only one side of the ethnic divide listens as even a new poster Hugh Jordan has noticed.  

Iguana posted:
Baseman posted:
Iguana posted:

How did Indians respond to FCH? They saw it as "discrimination" against them. Burnham didn't want them to make roti. Well, didn't black people make bread with flour too? Weren't we likewise affected? NO, the Indian saw only himself as the victim!

Granted, FCH was not well thought out and rolled out too quickly, before local substitutes and/or alternatives were identified.

And yes, Burnham's good intentions were overshadowed by his megalomania.

You talking lil skont!  Not every aspect of FCH was responded in a negative manner.  However, it should have been more phased and the Govt should have picked on items where there are viable local alternatives.  It would have taken a little longer, but become more sustainable.  They went about in a heavy-handed slash and burn approach which caused a lot of disruption and hardship.

Any population needs time to adjust to a new situation.  Where the discrimination came in is when the brought in KSI and had a Party-Card access model.  That was GROSSLY discriminatory and racist given the Guyana Ethno-political environment!

You are talking SHEER skont!!!!! You spend your entire post (with the exception of "not every aspect of FCH was responded in a negative manner"), reiterating what I stated in my post. Clearly I said FCH was not rolled out properly and alluded to the lack of alternatives prior to roll out. You basically repeat what I wrote then call what I wrote "lil skont". The sheer contagious dunceness of the Indo KKK is beginning to afflict you.

And what is this "aspect" of FCH that Indians responded to positively???? What did they do other than scream bloody murder and cry victimization because of a lack of flour conveniently forgetting black people couldn't bake bread either?!

Who owned the farms? INDIANS. One would think they would jump at the chance given by Burnham to "feed the nation" by increasing operations and revenue. NO. They did not. National interest meant nothing to them, just PPP and Indian only rule!

Hey hey hey...Greenie like yuh is a prentend Guyanese. Hey hey hey...Guyana gat nuff blackman farmers. Abie use to buy coconut aile every week fram wan blackman farmer from Buxton. Hey hey hey...

Labba posted:
 

 

 

Hey hey hey...Greenie like yuh is a prentend Guyanese. Hey hey hey...Guyana gat nuff blackman farmers. Abie use to buy coconut aile every week fram wan blackman farmer from Buxton. Hey hey hey...

While there were and are black farmers they are outnumbered by Indians, so the encouraging people to buy local food and not imported would have benefitted Indians.

The part that Indians screamed "black man a kill ahbie" was the banning of the flour, but when last I checked all Guyanese used tons of flour, maybe even too much of it. So how were blacks not also punished when they couldn't buy bread, or (yes) a puri, which was the cheapest lunch available at the time?

Labba posted:
 

 

Hey hey hey...yuh givin dem bais some 50% truth dey bai and some anti-coolie stereotype...hey hey hey. When dem Indo numbers increase in the 1870s-80s and after dem start dig new canal and keep dem ole ones clear. Me in de 1980s and 1990s see me mamoo dem cleaning canals foh de cane punts pass...hey hey hey. Dragline was use only after wan few year...hey hey hey. 

This isnt an "anti Indian stereotype".  This was a belief system of the planters that it took 4 Indians to do the heavy work that one black man could do.  So the heaviest jobs were reserved for black men.

And we aren't talking about the 1980s. We are talking about the 1880s.

skeldon_man posted:
 

The PPP did not gun them down. The PNC police did that because of their violent nature and threats.
 

And of course if the PNC was responsible these officers could have been arrested for murder but they weren't.  This is so stupid from you that even you mustn't be serious.

The thing that I notice with you PPP frauds is that even when you are in power you behave as if the PNC is governing, and yet you dont think that inclusive governance makes sense.  So obsessed with winning elections and then you cannot govern afterwards, except by resorting to private militias run by Colombian cartel affiliated drug lords.

caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 

 

 

Hey hey hey...Greenie like yuh is a prentend Guyanese. Hey hey hey...Guyana gat nuff blackman farmers. Abie use to buy coconut aile every week fram wan blackman farmer from Buxton. Hey hey hey...

While there were and are black farmers they are outnumbered by Indians, so the encouraging people to buy local food and not imported would have benefitted Indians.

The part that Indians screamed "black man a kill ahbie" was the banning of the flour, but when last I checked all Guyanese used tons of flour, maybe even too much of it. So how were blacks not also punished when they couldn't buy bread, or (yes) a puri, which was the cheapest lunch available at the time?

You blame other Guyanese races for discriminating against blacks. What do you suppose the other races do to help them? You seem to know all the problems facing your people, but you don't have an inkling what can help them? 28 years of PNC rule did not help, 3 years of PNC rule did not make it better. Do you recommend giving all of them office jobs and let the rest of the nation do manual labor?

skeldon_man posted:
 

 You are lucky the blacks do not have to work for the Chinese!!

 

Funny that you raise this because it was YOUR Jagdeo who screamed that Guyanese were too lazy to build the Marriott and so a 100% Chinese workforce was used.

You know that Indians are very involved in construction so it wasn't just blacks that he was indicting.

skeldon_man posted:
caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 

You blame other Guyanese races for discriminating against blacks. What do you suppose the other races do to help them? 

And I can also ask why should other Guyanese subsidize the jobs of sugar workers when the sugar industry is a huge money loser.  For every cent that GuySICKO gets they incur 3 cents in costs, meaning 2 cents in subsidies.

And if your folks are so "hardworking" why all the wails from Charran about their plight?

caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 

You blame other Guyanese races for discriminating against blacks. What do you suppose the other races do to help them? 

And I can also ask why should other Guyanese subsidize the jobs of sugar workers when the sugar industry is a huge money loser.  For every cent that GuySICKO gets they incur 3 cents in costs, meaning 2 cents in subsidies.

And if your folks are so "hardworking" why all the wails from Charran about their plight?

Why are you still weeping and gnashing your gums for the Lindeners?

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

 Black centric and indo centric are group terms we use to tar and feather each other for presumed indignities suffered at each other hands..

You need to stop finding moral equivalency.  The Indo Nazis dont merely advocate 

You need to stop finding the moral equivalency between the act of murderous terrorists killing unarmed civilians and the forces that stopped them.  

seignet posted:
Hugh Jorgan posted:

Let me preface this by saying I am Indian. A lot of my fellows Indians will not like what I am about to say. How is it that only blacks are admitting that BOTH parties have failed Guyana miserably? As far as most of the indos here are concerned, the PPP/Jagdeo was perfect even when the evidence bites them on the ass. 

Like yuh doan read Iguana, Ronan, D2 and Caribj. Yuh afraid of them?

Besides, out ah de two, neither is good for Guyana. The way destiny have it, it will be one or the other. Suh, we pick sides. Indos for PPP, the Other ppl are PNC, Mars and his compatriots.

Have I ever said my culture is a better culture than anyone, that I want to partition the country because I do not want to live with other races specificlly black people? Have I ever claimed that other cultures are simply substandard and they hold my culture down? No...but you have. What you do not like about me is I do not restrain my truth telling. Most indians are like you...they truly sucks!

caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
 

 You are lucky the blacks do not have to work for the Chinese!!

 

Funny that you raise this because it was YOUR Jagdeo who screamed that Guyanese were too lazy to build the Marriott and so a 100% Chinese workforce was used.

You know that Indians are very involved in construction so it wasn't just blacks that he was indicting.

Jagdeo is a grifter. He engaged a nation that lives by cheating others. The Chinese have done what Jagdeo accepted as normal everywhere on the planet.

Jagdeo was sufficiently corrupt to accept their devils bargain because they know he wanted access to graft. His greed does not condemn the rest of us to bear the penalty for his sins.

We need governments that does not get sucked into these kinds of deals. Granger did not fall for it wholesale but there are signs his regime was  suspect to the same lures. Only a government with checks and balance can save us here and that is what is lacking. It will not come by race blaming.

The accepting the  broadband deal reeks of Chinese influence for ulterior motive. We will not win here. They will have a large vacuum on our data. Plus, the loan could have been taken from the Islamic bank and we hire Cisco and not offend the Americans.

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

 Black centric and indo centric are group terms we use to tar and feather each other for presumed indignities suffered at each other hands..

You need to stop finding moral equivalency.  The Indo Nazis dont merely advocate for Indians and they have no need to as ronan, iguana, caribny and others will NOT argue against their claims.

What they do is claim "black man cannot run a mauby shop" (as if the PPP can), and stigmatize blacks as being criminal, violent, lazy and useless.  

Does anyone here stigmatize Indians as cunning, money obsessed and immoral people who lack integrity?  This being the stereotype that blacks have of Indians?  No!

I do not know of any Indo Nazi and I was incubated, and raised in an indian cultural world most of my early life.  You are letting your imagination take the best part of you.

Yes, I know Indian racists are everywhere.  I can also say that there is a cultural part to that racism as they erect cultural boundaries and invest it in their women. Those  those poor girls as designated purveyor of the cultural mores,  carry that heavy investment all their lives. Indians  are not an exogamous culture. Most cultures of the world are not. They can be racist all they want if we have systems to prevent the  projection of  it into the system in ways that disadvantages the rest of us. 

The opposite is true of Amerindians. They are an open culture with no taboo against cross cultural mixing. They remain the most intermixed culture beginning with the Spanish and the Dutch and Portuguese and now Indians and blacks. Their culture remains intact only because they are shunned by both blacks and Indians. The Portuguese are the only culture that took us as kin.

Whether you like it or care to admit it or not Black culture is also semi closed. It may be because they share a society with a non exogamous culture and bear the social commentary of lesser than from slave societies and that carry the burden of housing our cross cultural siblings of the two major races. But it is a fact blacks have serious problems with Indians and don't care about Amerindians.

This being said who the hell cares who hate whom? Why should any one in the society put constrains on another in their social life if it does not concern them? That is the point. 

If we had institutions that prevent  racism from mediating social and political decisions the cultural problems even themselves out. Despite our problems with each other we do have almost a fifth of our population who manage to be because there is inevitable cultural mixing.

We all experience the colonial crucible and however more or less the burdens of that experience also cannot impact how we conduct ourselves in a world where we want to foster democracy and grow a nation. 

I do not give a crap if Ugli thinks he is rich ( comparatively speaking he is not) or if he thinks his Brahmin's genes is superior or if he thinks himself smarter. Those are his prejudices and he owns them. In this society he cannot leverage his racism against us. That is because the ground is a bit level here and we can just laugh off his pretentious claims.

Similarly, that is the socio political ethos we have to create. Indians and blacks and Amerindians can maintain their insular practices among themselves or think as nasty things as is conceivable but they cannot use it to leverage unfair advantages in the society. I do not care  who apologizes or who is nasty. 

It is how the system is arranged not who likes you. Whites do not care for us in general in this society but we co exist. No one can say they have social priority in the general sense even if in legacy institutional ways they may. We take it for granted we can excel. That is what we need to do at home and get off the sach cloth and ashes syndrome of woe is me because someone does not like me.

As for moral equivalence...what do you want me to say...a lie...all of us suck or our nation would not be as crappy as it is.!

 
D2 posted:
 

 

Whether you like it or care to admit it or not Black culture is also semi closed. It may be because they share a society with a non exogamous culture and bear the social commentary of lesser than from slave societies and that carry the burden of housing our cross cultural siblings of the two major races. 

Again trying to claim that because Indians are one way blacks must be the same way.

1. In Guyana we have a phenomenon. No one can tell you who is black and who is mixed. Benschop says that he is mixed but Granger claims a black identity. So where is this closed culture?  We cannot agree with who is black and who isnt. We dont even agree as to what we should call ourselves. Arguing about "black", "African" (which only intellectuals use), "Afro Guyanese", with some older folks even insulted if you dont call them "negro".

2. Do we have an "African" culture in Guyana?  No we do not, and in fact few Afro Guyanese even have the slightest interest in Africa.  Afro Guyanese are culturally creole and do not believe that this creole culture is unique to them. You do not hear any "cultural appropriation" calls. Creole folk songs are seen as "Guyanese" as is the creole dialect and other cultural contributions of Afro Guyanese.  We dont police our ethnic borders the way that other ethnic groups in Guyana do.

3. The bulk of the mixed people in Guyana are part black.  Blacks dont have a history of rejecting their mixed relatives or disowning people because they marry outside of the race.

Racism is a fact among blacks, but claiming that its because they are socially or economically closed is a joke.

Until recently middle class blacks wanted to have nothing to do with the more African aspects of Afro Guyanese culture and there was much admiration for "advancing" the race.  And you know what "good hair" is.

If blacks have a problem its that they dont have an ethnic identity defined enough to protect themselves against that very powerful Indian identity.  They dont support each other in the way that Indians do.  An Indian will support a person because that person is an Indian, and I have seen this with my own eyes. It wouldn't even dawn on a black Guyanese to support a fellow black, such thinking only beginning to develop when they arrive in the USA.

 

Baseman posted:
caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

 Black centric and indo centric are group terms we use to tar and feather each other for presumed indignities suffered at each other hands..

You need to stop finding moral equivalency.  The Indo Nazis dont merely advocate 

You need to stop finding the moral equivalency between the act of murderous terrorists killing unarmed civilians and the forces that stopped them.  

And you need to stop thinking the dis-equivalence is a product of black people.  Indians are out there killing people. There are two last week where one fellow was stabbed and two brothers killed all by indian "terrorists"..and do not forget the mass murderer pirate who had approximately 20 something murders chalked up to his clan.

Lets talk about systems that will make our party system better and our democracy better. It is quite foolish to avoid that where these vile practices have influences and begin blaming other races for our plight

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

 

Whether you like it or care to admit it or not Black culture is also semi closed. It may be because they share a society with a non exogamous culture and bear the social commentary of lesser than from slave societies and that carry the burden of housing our cross cultural siblings of the two major races. 

Again trying to claim that because Indians are one way blacks must be the same way.

1. In Guyana we have a phenomenon. No one can tell you who is black and who is mixed. Benschop says that he is mixed but Granger claims a black identity. So where is this closed culture

2. Do we have an "African" culture in Guyana?  No we do not, and in fact few Afro Guyanese even have the slightest interest in Africa.

3. The bulk of the mixed people in Guyana are part black.  Blacks dont have a history of rejecting their mixed relatives or disowning people because they marry outside of the race.

Racism is a fact among blacks, but claiming that its because they are closed is a joke. Maybe because they bought so much into the colonial hierarchy that put Amerindians at the bottom more like it.

Until recently middle class blacks wanted to have nothing to do with the more African aspects of Afro Guyanese culture and there was much admiration for "advancing" the race.  And you know what "good hair" is.

If blacks have a problem its that they dont have an ethnic identity strong enough to protect themselves against that very powerful Indian identity.  They dont support each other in the way that Indians do.  An Indian will support a person because that person is an Indian, and I have seen this with my own eyes. It wouldn't even dawn on a black Guyanese to support a fellow black, such thinking only beginning to develop when they arrive in the USA.

You are again reading what is not there. My way does not care what way people are when I look at the problem. I care that the solution is to prevent them from poisoning the society. You ...believe it or not...poison the society as much as Ugli. You want him to change at his expense. That is bullox. Societies do not transform because we transform people first. We transform the the system and the system coerces them to palatable practices

I also do not give a damn who is what. Ugli says he is Brahamin...what do I care of it? Others say they are genetically superior ( a laugh) and why should I care?

Blacks can be as racist as ever but I do not care. I care that their racism does not affect me. Burnham, and Granger has affected my people and so has Jagdeo. They can because they foster the system that is to their  advantage and to our disadvantage 

I want to tear that down. I do not care to hear you whining about how Indians disadvantage blacks or  from Indians how blacks are the bane of their existence. I want a nation where communitarian ends are achievable and  bigots can go in your corner and nurse their racism as a precious baby if they please because they can only affect the system in holistic ways that benefits all.

caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
?

Why are you still weeping and gnashing your gums for the Lindeners?

Because you and Charran are weeping about all the starvation in Rose Hall.

Why have you and Iguana stayed away from Guyana. ( if I recalled correctly, Iguana claimed to  left Guyana decades ago, he sk&nt wouldn’t recognize GT  with its rich lifestyle) Maybe Redux also. 

Do you know the lifestyle of blacks now compare to PNC days. 

Black people lifestyle was elevated under PPP government. 

In the last 2 years ayo sk&nt punishment went back to 28 years of PNC government. 

D2 posted:

Lets talk about systems that will make our party system better and our democracy better. It is quite foolish to avoid that where these vile practices have influences and begin blaming other races for our plight

I keep on telling you that the problem in Guyana isnt political?  Just a few weeks ago black people were cussing down APNU for confining their dealings with people like BK and Muneshwar.  They boycotted the LGE.

They dont care who runs the country politically.  They just want to be sure that this is fair and they dont see the PPP as being fair.  They also do not see Indian owned companies in Guyana as being fair.

All of this rage isnt because they care about Granger, Volda or Trotman and whether they lose their jobs or not.  In fact if a PPP presented itself with a Frank Anthony and a Clinton Urling they may give them a chance to prove themselves.

 

All I can suggest is that an interim gov't is put in place to handle the day to day affairs of the nation. This can occur after March 20th.  This interim gov't should be administered by a body with equal representation from the Coalition and the PPP. Equal because they can either fight with each other, or they can cooperate.

Such body should have as its priority engaging Civil Society with the task of drafting a new constitution.  They should NOT be involved in this task. Civic Society should be drawn from as broad a net of entities to ensure full representation of all ethnicities, occupations, religions, regions, and social classes.

Once a draft constitution is developed than this managing group can opine on it and return it back to the drafting committee if they feel that its incomplete.  Once they are satisfied then it goes to referendum, and within a stipulated period then elections can be held.

I also suggest that parallel to this a body be set up to study ethnic issues and again shouldn't include politicians. The issues of the Indian, African and Amerindians should be addressed as well as the growing Latin American population.    We need to have an updated analysis of this problem so that we stop using theories based on the early 1960s civil war. Guyana is not what it was in 1964.

Dave posted:
 

Why have you and Iguana stayed away from Guyana. ( if I recalled correctly, Iguana claimed to  left Guyana decades ago, he sk&nt wouldn’t recognize GT  with its rich lifestyle) Maybe Redux also. 

Just like 90% of the posters here.  How come you dont ask this of the PPP frauds?

We do have friends and relatives in Guyana. We also read articles like that written by GHK Lall and David Hinds, neither of whom deny that there is heightened ethnic anxiety.

You can deny as you wish but blacks hate the PPP and the fact that the PPP can only attract the likes of a Lumumba or an Edghill shows this. Blacks with integrity stay away from them.

caribny posted:
D2 posted:

Lets talk about systems that will make our party system better and our democracy better. It is quite foolish to avoid that where these vile practices have influences and begin blaming other races for our plight

I keep on telling you that the problem in Guyana isnt political?  Just a few weeks ago black people were cussing down APNU for confining their dealings with people like BK and Muneshwar.  They boycotted the LGE.

They dont care who runs the country politically.  They just want to be sure that this is fair and they dont see the PPP as being fair.  They also do not see Indian owned companies in Guyana as being fair.

All of this rage isnt because they care about Granger, Volda or Trotman and whether they lose their jobs or not.  In fact if a PPP presented itself with a Frank Anthony and a Clinton Urling they may give them a chance to prove themselves.

 

All I can suggest is that an interim gov't is put in place to handle the day to day affairs of the nation. This can occur after March 20th.  This interim gov't should be administered by a body with equal representation from the Coalition and the PPP. Equal because they can either fight with each other, or they can cooperate.

Such body should have as its priority engaging Civil Society with the task of drafting a new constitution.  They should NOT be involved in this task. Civic Society should be drawn from as broad a net of entities to ensure full representation of all ethnicities, occupations, religions, regions, and social classes.

Once a draft constitution is developed than this managing group can opine on it and return it back to the drafting committee if they feel that its incomplete.  Once they are satisfied then it goes to referendum, and within a stipulated period then elections can be held.

I also suggest that parallel to this a body be set up to study ethnic issues and again shouldn't include politicians. The issues of the Indian, African and Amerindians should be addressed as well as the growing Latin American population.    We need to have an updated analysis of this problem so that we stop using theories based on the early 1960s civil war. Guyana is not what it was in 1964.

You can tell me all you want but like you I have been schooled by the best and can analyze the society for myself. It is pure nonsense that our problem is in the blame game and the woe is me game. That is the symptom. 

I dare you to find one example in the global compendium of conflict transformation strategies where the strategy was to act on the people and not the processes and procedures around which the society is organized. I care little for Indian and black black racists if they cannot affect me and get away with it.

BTW conflict transformation also does no begin with the blame game. Actually it is a clean slate process. It imagines an idealized state where the people with all their burdens can live minus the parts that would destroy each other if they express them.

Your strategy is what Dr Hinds and my nemesis Eric Phillips present as solutions from way back in 2000. I see no problem with it except as Hinds noted there must be a finite duration of this administration ie a year in which time a full fledged constitution would birth a new way of governing our people. Phillips even have a novel elections strategy.

D2 posted:
 

You are again reading what is not there. 

  You offered a flawed analysis of black ethnic identity in Guyana because you wanted to make it equivalent to the Indian ethnic identity.  Your analysis is wrong. 

Ethnic identity in Guyana is core to our problems. Why do blacks insist that Indians stop being "clannish?"  Why do Indians think that blacks ought to just leave them alone?  Why do blacks joke that the solution to the dilemma is "douglarization?"  Why no most Indians not only recoil from that, but consider such a remark to be racist?

Until you get to the bottom of this nothing that you do will solve the problem. Its like given a couple a nice house thinking that this will solve their marital problems. 

Just as how these people need counseling so too do the two major groups.  And the methods or the same. Understanding the underlying problem and getting people to listen to each other.

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

You are again reading what is not there. 

  You offered a flawed analysis of black ethnic identity in Guyana because you wanted to make it equivalent to the Indian ethnic identity.  Your analysis is wrong. 

Ethnic identity in Guyana is core to our problems. Why do blacks insist that Indians stop being "clannish?"  Why do Indians think that blacks ought to just leave them alone?  Why do blacks joke that the solution to the dilemma is "douglarization?"  Why no most Indians not only recoil from that, but consider such a remark to be racist?

Until you get to the bottom of this nothing that you do will solve the problem. Its like given a couple a nice house thinking that this will solve their marital problems. 

Just as how these people need counseling so too do the two major groups.  And the methods or the same. Understanding the underlying problem and getting people to listen to each other.

I never made any equivalence between the cultures. I dont care. I never analyze them except to disabuse people of nonsensical beliefs.

We debated this clannish crap for 28 pages back in 2007 and did not get anywhere. I do not care to repeat the experience.

D2 posted:
 

You can tell me all you want but like you I have been schooled by the best and can analyze the society for myself. It is pure nonsense that our problem is in the blame game and the woe is me game. That is the symptom. 

I dare you to find one example in the global compendium of conflict transformation strategies where the strategy was to act on the people and not the processes and procedures around which the society is organized. I care little for Indian and black black racists if they cannot affect me and get away with it.

BTW conflict transformation also does no begin with the blame game. Actually it is a clean slate process. It imagines an idealized state where the people with all their burdens can live minus the parts that would destroy each other if they express them.

Your strategy is what Dr Hinds and my nemesis Eric Phillips present as solutions from way back in 2000

=========================================

It is a blame game and a woe is me game. I have NEVER seen a Guyanese forum where ethnicities of posters isnt easily discerned by what they write.  THAT is the starting point.  The challenge is to move it BEYOND that point.  Ksazma has no interest in listening to black people and there are many blacks no more interested in listening to him. This is where we are and to pretend that it isnt is nonsense.

You and I are advanced middle aged men who left Guyana decades ago. I am not going to tell Guyanese what to do or what their problems are. I will simply tell them to establish structures so that the type of dialogue that is needed can occur.

And can you tell me where I demand that one ethnic group should be assigned priority simply because they arrived before the others and did so involuntarily and under duress?  Comparing me to Eric Phillips is blatantly dishonest.

And in fact I am discussing a PROCESS and a framework to allow this. The only difference is that I have some degree of respect for people who currently live in Guyana, whereas you clearly do not. So you want to impose on them a process and then rage when it doesnt work.

I suggest that they lock themselves in two rooms, one to deal with the ethnic issue and another to deal with the constitution. And that some neutral governing structure be established while all of this happens.  And because neither the PPP or the Coalition can be trusted to behave that a body with equal representation be established, so neither can seek to one up the other and they will have to cooperate or achieve nothing.

D2 posted:
 

I never made any equivalence between the cultures. I dont care. I never analyze them except to disabuse people of nonsensical beliefs.

We debated this clannish crap for 28 pages back in 2007 and did not get anywhere. I do not care to repeat the experience.

People operate within the cultural context that they were raised. Whereas a discussion of Jamaica's political woes can be raised without reference to this Guyana, which consists of two radically different cultures, it cannot be ignored.

I repeat. Putting a warring couple in a fancy house doesnt mean that their marriage will work.   Guyana has a warring couple.  They dont understand each other because of how they think, and until they begin to understand each other they will fight. When they have to listen to each other than we see progress.

If an Indian sees a black man and refuses to hire him because he thinks that he is lazy and then the black man looks back and sees that he hired a less qualified Indian you can have all the constitution that you wish but we will still have a problem.  When that black man gets power he will direct it to thwart the Indian, and given Guyana's history that power will be located within the public sector and blacks will fight like hell to preserve this zone of power.

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

I never made any equivalence between the cultures. I dont care. I never analyze them except to disabuse people of nonsensical beliefs.

We debated this clannish crap for 28 pages back in 2007 and did not get anywhere. I do not care to repeat the experience.

People operate within the cultural context that they were raised. Whereas a discussion of Jamaica's political woes can be raised without reference to this Guyana, which consists of two radically different cultures, it cannot be ignored.

I repeat. Putting a warring couple in a fancy house doesnt mean that their marriage will work.   Guyana has a warring couple.  They dont understand each other because of how they think, and until they begin to understand each other they will fight. When they have to listen to each other than we see progress.

If an Indian sees a black man and refuses to hire him because he thinks that he is lazy and then the black man looks back and sees that he hired a less qualified Indian you can have all the constitution that you wish but we will still have a problem.  When that black man gets power he will direct it to thwart the Indian, and given Guyana's history that power will be located within the public sector and blacks will fight like hell to preserve this zone of power.

The fancy house is not to ensure the marriage will work. It is contingent on whether they care to make it work. Sensible couples care to work things our or as Gweneth Paltrow said, have a conscious "decoupling". Murder  will not be a means to divorce.

Every society from Japan, to Europe to South Africa to Ireland has warring people willing to tear each other apart. They live can live together with out the governments going despotic. That is a start to mending. 

I do not care how the indian sees the black man or visa versa. There will be disincentives to fighting. The public sector is not a plum pie and will not be a plum pie in the future. It is actually an economic trap into a fixed income. Entrepreneurship will be the holy grail and as long as the government cannot operate with the kith and kin attitude all will be well

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

You are again reading what is not there. 

  You offered a flawed analysis of black ethnic identity in Guyana because you wanted to make it equivalent to the Indian ethnic identity.  Your analysis is wrong. 

Ethnic identity in Guyana is core to our problems. Why do blacks insist that Indians stop being "clannish?"  Why do Indians think that blacks ought to just leave them alone?  Why do blacks joke that the solution to the dilemma is "douglarization?"  Why no most Indians not only recoil from that, but consider such a remark to be racist?

Until you get to the bottom of this nothing that you do will solve the problem. Its like given a couple a nice house thinking that this will solve their marital problems. 

Just as how these people need counseling so too do the two major groups.  And the methods or the same. Understanding the underlying problem and getting people to listen to each other.

Hey hey hey...Blackman clannish too. Dem a only vote foh dem mattie. Abie gat one one exception. Blackman votin strong foh dem mattie. Doh is not clannish? hey hey hey...

caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 

 

 

Hey hey hey...Greenie like yuh is a prentend Guyanese. Hey hey hey...Guyana gat nuff blackman farmers. Abie use to buy coconut aile every week fram wan blackman farmer from Buxton. Hey hey hey...

While there were and are black farmers they are outnumbered by Indians, so the encouraging people to buy local food and not imported would have benefitted Indians.

The part that Indians screamed "black man a kill ahbie" was the banning of the flour, but when last I checked all Guyanese used tons of flour, maybe even too much of it. So how were blacks not also punished when they couldn't buy bread, or (yes) a puri, which was the cheapest lunch available at the time?

Me na buy dat. Yuh gat to compare peopkle with dem percent of population. Yuh gat as much small and medium black former like coolie farmer. Now meh believe yuh gat Indians dominate in rice. Dat was for export to bring in he hard wite man money. In essequibo one of de biggest rice farmer is a blackman. Hey hey hey. 

Labba posted:
caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

You are again reading what is not there. 

  You offered a flawed analysis of black ethnic identity in Guyana because you wanted to make it equivalent to the Indian ethnic identity.  Your analysis is wrong. 

Ethnic identity in Guyana is core to our problems. Why do blacks insist that Indians stop being "clannish?"  Why do Indians think that blacks ought to just leave them alone?  Why do blacks joke that the solution to the dilemma is "douglarization?"  Why no most Indians not only recoil from that, but consider such a remark to be racist?

Until you get to the bottom of this nothing that you do will solve the problem. Its like given a couple a nice house thinking that this will solve their marital problems. 

Just as how these people need counseling so too do the two major groups.  And the methods or the same. Understanding the underlying problem and getting people to listen to each other.

Hey hey hey...Blackman clannish too. Dem a only vote foh dem mattie. Abie gat one one exception. Blackman votin strong foh dem mattie. Doh is not clannish? hey hey hey...

Clans are fundamental. It is but another way to say kin group or tribe 

Labba posted:
caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

You are again reading what is not there. 

  You offered a flawed analysis of black ethnic identity in Guyana because you wanted to make it equivalent to the Indian ethnic identity.  Your analysis is wrong. 

Ethnic identity in Guyana is core to our problems. Why do blacks insist that Indians stop being "clannish?"  Why do Indians think that blacks ought to just leave them alone?  Why do blacks joke that the solution to the dilemma is "douglarization?"  Why no most Indians not only recoil from that, but consider such a remark to be racist?

Until you get to the bottom of this nothing that you do will solve the problem. Its like given a couple a nice house thinking that this will solve their marital problems. 

Just as how these people need counseling so too do the two major groups.  And the methods or the same. Understanding the underlying problem and getting people to listen to each other.

Hey hey hey...Blackman clannish too. Dem a only vote foh dem mattie. Abie gat one one exception. Blackman votin strong foh dem mattie. Doh is not clannish? hey hey hey...

Blackman show one love or clannish when dem threaten foh boycott de man from ANUG...Campbell? Why dem threaten foh boycott de man bisness? Doh is one love or clannish? Hey hey hey...

D2 posted:
 

The fancy house is not to ensure the marriage will work. It is contingent on whether they care to make it work. Sensible couples care to work things our or as Gweneth Paltrow said, have a conscious "decoupling". Murder  will not be a means to divorce.

Every society from Japan, to Europe to South Africa to Ireland has warring people willing to tear each other apart. They live can live together with out the governments going despotic. That is a start to mending. 

I do not care how the indian sees the black man or visa versa. There will be disincentives to fighting. The public sector is not a plum pie and will not be a plum pie in the future. It is actually an economic trap into a fixed income. Entrepreneurship will be the holy grail and as long as the government cannot operate with the kith and kin attitude all will be well

You can dwell in your NON BLACKNESS in the USA and think as you wish.  Blacks in Guyana and T&T will view the public sector as a life jacket until they feel confident that the private sector will be fair to them.   Unlike Jamaica and Barbados, which had their own private sector anti blackness, there are many non blacks in T&T and Guyana, so those who wish to project their negative bias against blacks in discrimination in hiring/promotion decisions are amply able to do so.  In Jamaica and Barbados the private sector had no choice but to open up, given the demographics of those populations.

You will not get Guyanese and Trinidadian blacks to cease desiring dominance of the public sector while you do NOTHING about the hiring and promotional practices of the corporate sector.  Solve one and then the other is resolved. Public sector dominance will cease to be a prize because the zero sum scenario becomes less relevant.

South Africa in fact indicates exactly why ignoring the cultural context doesn't work.  Blacks and whites in that nation operate in an even more cultural different context than do blacks and Indians in Guyana.  Yes when Mandela came on stream there was a lot of glad handing but now we see a nation where the two look at each other and don't wish to understand their respective contexts. The blacks accuse the whites of being greedy and the whites fear a Zimbabwe scenario.

So I hope that you don't think that their post apartheid arrangements prove your point.  Those arrangements didn't work any better than in 1992 when Jimmy Carter led the holding of elections which led to the end of the PNC dictatorship.  As with South Africa, so with Guyana there is a whole raft of ethnic angst which infect the entirety of what these nations represent and one cannot reference these countries without noting this.

What is Guyana most known for?  Its the low level tribal conflict which impacts how the rest of the world sees us.  I never see any article written about Guyana which doesn't dwell on this and its potential for more open conflict.

 

 

Labba posted:
 Blackman votin strong foh dem mattie. Doh is not clannish? hey hey hey...

Get it right.  They are voting AGAINST an Indian gov't because they fear what that Indian gov't will do to them.  They saw what Cheddi did in 1992 and Jagdeo again in 2000 and do not want those days back again,

So deal with your clannishness first.  The PPP had 23 years to establish a record and a record of hostility to blacks they certainly did.

caribny posted:
D2 posted:
 

The fancy house is not to ensure the marriage will work. It is contingent on whether they care to make it work. Sensible couples care to work things our or as Gweneth Paltrow said, have a conscious "decoupling". Murder  will not be a means to divorce.

Every society from Japan, to Europe to South Africa to Ireland has warring people willing to tear each other apart. They live can live together with out the governments going despotic. That is a start to mending. 

I do not care how the indian sees the black man or visa versa. There will be disincentives to fighting. The public sector is not a plum pie and will not be a plum pie in the future. It is actually an economic trap into a fixed income. Entrepreneurship will be the holy grail and as long as the government cannot operate with the kith and kin attitude all will be well

You can dwell in your NON BLACKNESS in the USA and think as you wish.  Blacks in Guyana and T&T will view the public sector as a life jacket until they feel confident that the private sector will be fair to them.   Unlike Jamaica and Barbados, which had their own private sector anti blackness, there are many non blacks in T&T and Guyana, so those who wish to project their negative bias against blacks in discrimination in hiring/promotion decisions are amply able to do so.  In Jamaica and Barbados the private sector had no choice but to open up, given the demographics of those populations.

You will not get Guyanese and Trinidadian blacks to cease desiring dominance of the public sector while you do NOTHING about the hiring and promotional practices of the corporate sector.  Solve one and then the other is resolved. Public sector dominance will cease to be a prize because the zero sum scenario becomes less relevant.

South Africa in fact indicates exactly why ignoring the cultural context doesn't work.  Blacks and whites in that nation operate in an even more cultural different context than do blacks and Indians in Guyana.  Yes when Mandela came on stream there was a lot of glad handing but now we see a nation where the two look at each other and don't wish to understand their respective contexts. The blacks accuse the whites of being greedy and the whites fear a Zimbabwe scenario.

So I hope that you don't think that their post apartheid arrangements prove your point.  Those arrangements didn't work any better than in 1992 when Jimmy Carter led the holding of elections which led to the end of the PNC dictatorship.  As with South Africa, so with Guyana there is a whole raft of ethnic angst which infect the entirety of what these nations represent and one cannot reference these countries without noting this.

What is Guyana most known for?  Its the low level tribal conflict which impacts how the rest of the world sees us.  I never see any article written about Guyana which doesn't dwell on this and its potential for more open conflict.

 

 

Fortunately you do not get to speak for all Guyanese blacks. I have lots of mates from my undergrad days and they all sit down and discuss these issues and long for changes in the exercise of power. I cannot say I have heard one of them insist that "Gargetown is fa we" and the the "Public sector is we own"

caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 Blackman votin strong foh dem mattie. Doh is not clannish? hey hey hey...

Get it right.  They are voting AGAINST an Indian gov't because they fear what that Indian gov't will do to them.  They saw what Cheddi did in 1992 and Jagdeo again in 2000 and do not want those days back again,

So deal with your clannishness first.  The PPP had 23 years to establish a record and a record of hostility to blacks they certainly did.

Hey hey hey...and dem coolies voting against what ayoo one love party PNC do from 1964 to 1992 and how Burnham throw out de 50% Indos in the army the British leff. De same principle apply foh both side. Me even see that kanta economis TK write papah sayin de same ting what yu say and what de Labba say...hey hey hey. 

D2 posted:
 

Clans are fundamental. It is but another way to say kin group or tribe 

To call the descendants of transatlantic slavery clannish is a joke.  Their ethnic identities are formed in response to how non blacks treat them.  You go to those majority black islands in the Caribbean and they hardly ever discuss race. It is in Guyana and T&T that it becomes an issue because blacks in those two nations feel a vulnerability that they don't in Barbados.

Go to the DR and someone like Denzel Washington will have a meltdown if you called them black.  So what kind of racially based clannish loyalties do we have?  You have 1/3 of the "black" population of Guyana, who would be called mixed if they went to Barbados, calling themselves mixed. Yes people like Raphael Trotman and Mark Benschop.

Labba posted:
 

Hey hey hey...and dem coolies voting against what ayoo one love party PNC do from 1964 to 1992 and how Burnham throw out de 50% Indos in the army the British leff. De same principle apply foh both side. Me even see that kanta economis TK write papah sayin de same ting what yu say and what de Labba say...hey hey hey. 

Let us get some historical facts first.  The PPP ran Guyana from 1957 until 1964 and Janet did her best to clean the civil service of as many blacks as she could getaway with.  Its only the aggressive response of the black middle class that prevented her from accomplishing her goal.  The British held them down and they were damned if some white American female was going to continue to do this.

You also  need to stop repeating what I have said several times today. Did I contest the fact that 1964-1992 wasn't a hostile period for Indians, many deliberately being refused employment at places like Bank of GY and the ministries?  NO! 

So repeating that blacks did it too doesn't build up your point.  I do NOT dispute that blacks did it too.  I remind that that Indians ALSO did it as well.

 

caribny posted:
Labba posted:
 

Hey hey hey...and dem coolies voting against what ayoo one love party PNC do from 1964 to 1992 and how Burnham throw out de 50% Indos in the army the British leff. De same principle apply foh both side. Me even see that kanta economis TK write papah sayin de same ting what yu say and what de Labba say...hey hey hey. 

Let us get some historical facts first.  The PPP ran Guyana from 1957 until 1964 and Janet did her best to clean the civil service of as many blacks as she could getaway with.  Its only the aggressive response of the black middle class that prevented her from accomplishing her goal.  The British held them down and they were damned if some white American female was going to continue to do this.

You also  need to stop repeating what I have said several times today. Did I contest the fact that 1964-1992 wasn't a hostile period for Indians, many deliberately being refused employment at places like Bank of GY and the ministries?  NO! 

So repeating that blacks did it too doesn't build up your point.  I do NOT dispute that blacks did it too.  I remind that that Indians ALSO did it as well.

 

Hey hey hey...Me nat argue wid yu bai. Me say both side gat dem valid story. Dat me learn from dat pagala economis bai TK. He gat wan fancy foh yuh histry and Janet do and what me say Burnham do wid de 50% Indos who was in de force de British leff. De pagala economis call it wan prisonman trap. Both side fear feed from de other side. Hey hey hey...TK seh how dat is what is endogenous or something like dat...hey hey hey...so what is yuh solution? 

caribny posted:

You need to stop finding moral equivalency.  The Indo Nazis dont merely advocate for Indians and they have no need to as ronan, iguana, caribny and others will NOT argue against their claims.

What they do is claim "black man cannot run a mauby shop" (as if the PPP can), and stigmatize blacks as being criminal, violent, lazy and useless.  

Does anyone here stigmatize Indians as cunning, money obsessed and immoral people who lack integrity?  This being the stereotype that blacks have of Indians?  No!

No, not one black poster here stereotypes Indians or even uses the C word, unless it is in quotes for reference. The allegedly "rich" and holy Bramanananananas and their following ought to take note that all their "money" can't buy class. The sheer putrid racism from these people, rolling so easily off their tongues is amazing to watch. Starting to agree with D2 that their racism may be genetic!

Their chants of "black man can't run......" are funny as hell. They run to black run Islands to get away from the horrors in Guyana, even DURING 23 years of PPP rule!

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