Thank you, sir. Dis coolie happy to hear dat.

Or Dougla?

I don't think you Jaganites understand the dynamics of this election.

Lemme be clear: YOU PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO WIN INDIAN VOTES TO OUST AN INDIAN GOVERNMENT.

Let that fact sink in for a while. Jagan's playbook does not cover this topic. ROAR's playbook does. Do you think it's an accident that the PPP is relying on ROAR to hold the Indian vote together? It's because not even the PPP is sure of how to speak to Indians. But they know ROAR does.

And look here, one single letter from Dr. Ramharack (a former principal ROAR member) has upended the Campaign and dominated the Moses narrative all week with no signs of going away.

I have plenty of douglas in my family and we're happy to have them to the point that we don't notice the fact that they may be slightly different in some way than the rest of us. These are people who are your superior in all things Indian.

I don't know why you think calling me "dougla" is an insult. Were I a dougla, I'd be a proud one.

And FYI...the "Indian" identity is theirs if they so wish to claim it. They have as much claim on it as you or I do. Certainly more than a waste like you.

There is nothing to clarify. It is for the Indian person to ask what is this ethnic label means in relation to the national label of Guyanese. I hardly doubt they are fully aware of it in the general sense where it matters.

Indians are PIO not Indians in the sense of a national of India. Internally refer to themselves by region and caste and jat. We have none of that. We are PIO and but that term has not taken foot so Moses could say I am PIO vs Guyanese.

On U tube comment sections with Fijian Indians express their culture  Indians say horrible things of Fijian Indians ( Findians). They berate their use of Hindi, call them bastardized English and of all things "black". Imagine what they say of us!

1. There are 36 days to Election Day. This mass introspection on what the word "Indian" means to them and its relationship to their national identity of Guyanese ain't gonna happen between now and May 11th, the issue here. I'm also willing to say that average Indian has figured it out already for himself. That they haven't to your personal satisfaction is your problem, not theirs.

2. I don't know who told you anyone here thinks the word "Indian" as used by Guyanese Indians means "national of India" to anyone. Maybe in your fantasies and in that of your extreme Hindutva one time pals. No one is using any term like PIO or South Asian. They are the empty clumsy constructs of academics and pontificators. The Indians have organically elected to consider and call themselves "Indian."

3. That some low class India type Indians in India or directly from India wish to have some other group of Indians to look down on and choose Indo-Fijians or Indo-Caribbeans is of no concern to me or any other Indian whatsoever. This argument is irrelevant and only means something to you and Caribj and anyone else under the novel idea that coolies in India are the arbiters of the identity of Guyanese Indians. Guyanese Indians have a stronger claim to the word "Indian" for the fact that we are so firmly mixed in blood and culture of all the myriad parts of the Subcontinent. We more more "Indian" in any real sense than any national of India can claim to be. The average Guyanese Indian is a blend of Brahmin + chammar + all others in between. His curry is spiced with Bihari and Madrassi ingredients. His gods encompass all the cults of India including the Jesus cult. I trust I've made my point. Canada has its French Canadians, Guyana its Guyanese Indians. Mutatis mutandis.

I do not give a damn what Indians call themselves. I care that what they do do not subsume the social and political space as the most important issue. That most Indians are bigots is also a foregone conclusion for me. As I said, I live among Indians, I have 13 aunts who are Indians and 65 cousins most a blend of other races and do not look a damn like an Indian and yet call themselves Indian. You or batoram  are not to tell me who I am or not. You can presume there is an "it" to indianness I miss but that is your own fantasy.

I do not know I share even one iota of philosophical outlook as Caribj. YOu and him are more kin.

PIO has lex sanguinis ramifications. Any person in the Indian diaspora who can show a grandparent was an Indian native can legitimately seek privileges of any native Indian to start business, reside in India etc etc. It is a meaningful in terms of descent if one want to speak of Indians in the diaspora.

At a minimum, the "Indian" identity in Guyana is shared with those who choose to identify with it. Those who wish to "pass" into another identity for whatever reason are on their own. Good luck wid duh! Doan let the logie door hit your ass on the out.

My father similarly can "pass" into Spanish or white. That he is a proud Indian who does not wish to be a whiteman is to his credit. That he found the darkest coolie gyal he could have found in the Corentyne to marry is also to his credit apparently since he could have "passed" out if he so chose.

The fact that India chooses to offer some PIO privileges to the descendants of its former nationals means nothing. That it has some vague relation to the lex sanguinis is possible but largely irrelevant. Lemme school you on some other similar facilities offered by Western nations with "lex sanguinis ramifications"

Take the United Kingdom which offers an Ancestry Visa to all and sundry who have at least 1 grandparent born within the UK and the now Republic of Ireland proper. By an accident of history my very Guyanese Indian mother actually qualifies for a UK Ancestry visa. This facility has actually stronger "lex sanguinis ramifications" than the watered down PIO card because it is specifically written so as to target the white descendants of white British from a time when the Home Islands were still lily white and the brown and black people still stayed home in the Colonies. This is a thinly veiled attempt to attract and prefer white immigrants to the UK now that the white population needs shoring up. The UK Ancestry Visa allows the holder to live and work in the UK indefinitely (and vote within 1 year). It would embarrass you to know that the PIO facility is poorly modeled on that of Western nations for their Diaspora.

I don't feel like listing all the "grandparent" descent benefits (superior to PIO) afforded to the descendants of former nationals of Western powers like Switzerland and Ireland etc. etc.

Indians, India, the Indians Diaspora are not special here. This is quite usual. That you and some others wanna use bits and pieces here to construct an anti-Indian argument is your problem chap.

I hardly think that any man who thinks that Guyana is dominated by Africans is credible.  Guyana is dominated by Indian elites.  If Africans were so all powerful the PNC would have been in power, or they would be staunch PPP supporters.

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Well the PNC is NOT in power.  The Police shoot and kill black protestors, and more than a few were embedded in Roger Khan's slaughter of blacks males.  And not more than 5% of blacks support the PPP.

So where is this all powerful African group.

Ordinary Indians have a problem and they have been brainwashed to think that their problem is due to blacks.  The problem which ordinary Indians have in 2015 is with Indian elites.  So they can remain stupid and gullible and vote PPP and then will get more of the same.

Yes let what ever Moses calls himself be a reason for ordinary Indians to vote for their continued exploitation by Indian elites.  Are the rice millers black?  Are the money lenders who seize lands from poor farmers when they cannot repay blacks?  What of those who are ruining Guysuco, and blaming the sugar workers.  Are they black?  And the folks who decided to force people to use the Berbice Bridge so that they are forced to pay a large sum.  They black?

I guess if a black man collects the toll to cross the Berbice River he will be blamed.  Not the Indians who he works for!

Do you even accept a yes for an answer Old Man?

Let me be lil moh pellucid to use a term ya'll seem so fond of.

Guyana in 2015 is run by an Indian elite. This Indian elite is the consequence of policies and outright corruption by an arguably Indian Government. All state institutions are subordinate to this elite who are almost all Indian.

Here is where we part company. This Indian elite and its control over these state institutions are wholly dependent on the electoral success of the PPP. Once the PPP goes, the house of cards that is "Indian domination" begin to crumble almost immediately. When Indians lose the Presidency and the Cabinet, this Indian domination you complain of will swiftly end. Immediately in the state institutions and then in the economy depending on the will of the new Government to indict (everyone is indictable).

We will be back to square one. All the State institutions will once combine their existing overwhelming majorities of Blacks at all levels with new Black heads. Indians do not occupy positions in the state that holdover when governments change like Blacks do. They are largely political appointees and contract workers with no protection whatsoever from their political masters.

I am saying that Indians should through some scheme be dispersed in the lower and mid levels of all state institutions for everyone's benefit. I'm not even concerned about parity; 1/3 to 40% is a good ballpark. This addresses in a profound way the fundamentals of what drives Indian insecurity in Guyana. And no I'm not in favor of sacking Blacks and replacing them with Indians. There are plenty of ways to do this over the long term without punishing Blacks, individually or collectively.

If this happens, Indians will not feel a great and pressing need every five years to gang up and vote against the Blacks when the Presidency and the Cabinet is at stake.

Let's also not forget that this state of Indian domination that hovers over Guyana was constructed as a REACTION to PNC misbehavior. The PNC did push the PPP in the post 1997 era to adopt more radical policies to neutralize the PNC.....and the PPP were successful. Jagdeo did deliberately set out to neutralize the civil and military services. He succeeded wildly. He did so because his Indian predecessors were always at the mercy of these institutions. The civil and military services of Guyana always acted in concert to PNC power plays and provided "pressure" to PPP Governments when it was weakest and threatened on the outside by the PNC. The only problem is that its a temporary response to the long term challenges of running a multiracial/multiethnic state. The solution to Guyana is shared governance not domination by any one race.

In sum, it can reasonably be said that Indians vote to keep the PNC away from being rejoined once again to its kith and kin in the principal organs of the state. This is actually pretty sophisticated group behavior....especially from a majority uneducated population.

Also Jay and Shaitaan will need to prove that Jagdeo engaged in specific actions to discriminate AGAINST Indians who wanted to work in the civil service or in the armed forces.

In 1994 Cheddi had a military unit, the Presidential Guard.  100% of them were Indians.  What happened to them? Where is the proof that Indians wish to become part of the GDF or the GPF.  I assert that Indians have no more wish to engage in those occupations than blacks have an interest in cutting cane. A few of each will do so, but most will refuse.

So do you plan to invade Indian homes and snatch 19 y/o boys and coopt them into the police force or the army?

The closest to shared governance is APNU (blacks and black identified mixed) and the AFC (Nagamootoo Indians).  Given that the AFC will bring in maybe 20% of the votes, don't you think that being given 40% of the cabinet and as much of the parliament is a major give away by the PNC?

Why do you think that the PNC is being so generous?  You do know that many PNC members who anticipate being made MPs, Ministers or other areas of leadership will be sidelined to make room for the Nagamootoo AFC faction.  The old Trotman/Hughes faction (old recipe) are few in numbers as you fully well know.  Cathy will be made a minister.  I doubt Nigel will as he will want to continue practicing law.  Maybe Patterson.  Who else?  Most AFC appointees will be Nagamootoo folks (mainly Indian).

The PNC will be very fair to Indians, because if they aren't they DIE!  Its that simple, as 32%-43% of the votes are all they can count if they pursue an Afrocentric policy.

Still don't know why people are still bellyaching over Moses.  He used an example of a Pakistani being a Pakistani, and not being Indian.  Clearly his reference to Guyana points out that is nationality as a Guyanese is his foremost point of identity.

He didn't say it to get black support because in 2008 Nagamootoo was an embedded part of the PPP, so his views clearly reflect his honest opinion.

I know that Shaitaan and Jay would have a cow if Granger ran around calling himself an African.  They would both whine that this is a suggestion of the return of a Burnham era when Indians were forced to wear dashikis.

Yet Nagamootoo must adopt as his prime identity his ETHNIC one as an Indian, and not has NATIONAL one as a Guyanese.  If Nagamootoo denied that he is a Guyanese of Indian descent please point that out.

Lemme agree wid you some more.

1) I'll buy that the racism of Blacks (all of it) was due to the PPP and specifically Janetji.

2) I'll buy all that about there being no PNC dictatorship in Guyana's future. I didn't think there was so you're arguing against a creature of your own creation.

3) That the Indo business elite may survive and prosper under the PNC and Granger is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure a lot of them (the smart ones anyway) made donations to the PNC just in case the PPP loses in May 11th. That's just what elites do. Bribe both major parties.

With all that said. We have the same issue. Indians have genuine security concerns when it comes to Black dominated State institutions.

You would be here screaming daily about Indo oppression if Guyana had a 90% Black civil and military state apparatus.

You're a smart guy so I won't countenance the idea that you don't understand my point in your drive to explain away/ridicule my concerns and the concerns of Indian people about the institutions of State.

I suspect that you are of the belief that Blacks need to hold onto tightly the State institutions and not diminish their numbers one bit as a hedge against the good behavior and cooperation of the new Indian elite and as a further check on a large and not yet 29% Indian population. There is no guarantee that the PNC can create a rival African economic elite. Possible but not guaranteed. A new African economic elite will emerge but the Indos have had a head start and that head start may prove too great to overcome without strong measures likely to disrupt the Coalition. So we must hang onto a Black civil and military apparatus to reinforce a Black Presidency and a Black majority Cabinet.

That's what I gather from this conversation. There is nothing wrong with that per se. It's a perfectly valid analysis and quite understandable response to the "Indian question." Just show a little honesty and admit to that. I'd respect that position more.

You are beginning to looks as silly as the ret of bigots here. I never created, formulated, strategized or emphasized an anti Indian strategy. That is your shtick. You are pulling Indian specialness out of thin air. Indians are no more special than others on any level, cultural, political or intellectual. Instead of sucking the oxygen off the board with this delusory thread about Moses disavowing his Indianans is your problem. Moses can no more disavow his Identity than he can disavow his parents. They are what he inherited and which he cannot reject.  You and those idiots in the PPP are simply threading water. 

1.  Indian and African ethnic insecurity began under the British divide and rule.  They did the same in India (the old India) when they encouraged Hindu vs.  Muslim conflicts.  In Nigeria they deliberately fostered the same between the Hausa/Fulani, the Igbo and the Yoruba.

The strategy was that you give certain access to each group, and bar each group for access to opportunities made available to the other group. 

In Guyana this meant that while African villages were taxed to death and no assistance was provided with the flooding problem land settlement schemes were being provided to the Indians. 

The freed Africans were encouraged to become Christians (most still practiced remnants of traditional African religions as slaves as they weren't allowed to become Christians).  The incentive to become Christians was access to education, then only provided by Christian churches (usually Anglican).  Civil service jobs required recommendations from the parish priest, so Anglicans received preference.  As Indians refused to become Christians they were denied access to education or access to the civil service.

The British maintained the same height restrictions for access to the police force that they had in the UK.  West Africans, being of similar stature as Europeans gained access.  The shorter East Indians and Amerindians were kept out.  The lower ranks of the police force were mainly Africans, and the white planters happily used them to put down any rebellion by Indian indentures, as well as to capture and return any indentures who attempted to flee the estate. 

So this African vs. Indians thing didn't start with the Jagan vs. Burnham thing.  The underlying mistrust came to the fore when the 195 split within the PPP occurred.  Contrary to popular belief Burnham left with several Indians. But the ones who left with him were the ones who say "dholl" and "I am not like those coolie people", as most were probably educated Christians. 

So in he 1957 election NONE of the Indians from the PNC won seats.  The BGEIA coined the phrase apaan jhat, which the PPP happily embraced, knowing that a race vote would benefit them, and not the PNC.

2.  If Guyana remains a capitalist democratic country it will either be Indian dominated, or a multi racial coalition.  Africans are only around 32% of the voters, and the mixed population is now no longer of the old mulatto group, who despised blacks, but bonded with them as they feared Indians even more.  So the PNC will only survive if it moves beyond its 32% African base, and the 10% mixed. but Afro identified group.  It must attract some votes from people who do not feel any bond with the Afro identified populations.

So your scream that Guyana will be African dominated is PURE NONSENSE!  Yes there will be no room for people like Ravi Dev, and maybe you, because you guys insist that you are some isolated "nationality" unconnected to other Guyanese, so even douglas will not trust you all.  Yes poor Jay will find out how strongly most blacks feel about the Indian domination of Guyana after the APNU AFC take power, that is IF they win.

But a return of an African monopoly hold on power?  Sorry the Burnhamite elements, who salivate for the return of those days, will be equally shocked.  they will have to figure out how to deal with people like Jay carrying their ignorant nonsense, because they will need to maintain that coalition.  Because if people like Jay feel excluded because an African regime replaces an Indian regime, and decides to continue the traditional Guyanese ethnic cycles of revenge, then the PPP will resume power when an MONC causes the collapse of the coalition.

I have no idea of how the coalition will work, but I do know that a return of anything which smells of Burnhamism will lead to its swift demise.

How can I be of the belief that Africans must hold on to state power when I am of the belief that they DO NOT control state power?  Africans in Guyana control NOTHING.  Even the GDF, now led by black PPP stooges, or the police, with an Indian as COP.  It was a BLACK police offer who ordered live rounds to be fired into a group of black protesters.  On whose behest was he doing this?  If Afro Guyanese really controlled these entities do you think that they would engage in these types of actions to prevent Africans from protesting against an Indian regime?

State power resides in the PPP and the Indian elites who staff almost all of the leadership positions.  The Africans are there begging for a liitle wuk, or at the lowest levels for a "Chinee food".  That isn't power.

An APNU AFC gov't will necessitate SHARED governance as the PNC has never won an election on its own, and isn't ever going to win an election on its own.  So while Africans might dominate state organs they will not be able to ethnically exclude non Africans desirous of those jobs, and they will always have to have some arrangement with non Africans in order to maintain control of state organs.

APNU AFC by its very nature will be LESS ethnically exclusive than will the PPP.  Look at how Ravi Dev is all but giving Guyana to India.  Does the PPP condemn that?  NO! 

Do you think that David Hinds will be allowed to tell Nigerian billionaires that they must invest in Guyana, and bring in Nigerians as workers because there are many of "their" people in Guyana?  NO WAY!

Ravi dev is not giving Guyana to India.  You mis-interpret what he said.  Is it wrong to invite Indians to invest in Guyana? Burnham did the same to Black west Indians...   Guyana needs investors if it is going to develop further.

Ravi Dev didn't invite Hindus purely on the business merits of theier ability to invest.  He invited them as Hindus and told them that over 50% of the population is Indian (lie) and hat 40% are Hindu (another lie).  He spoke to them in terms of THEIR people.

Clearly Ravi Dev wasn't speaking to Guyana from the point of view of the 75% of the population which is NOT Hindu.

But you are a racist so why should I be shocked that you don't see how bad this is.