Tola suicide organization got competition

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Yes. Are you suggesting that Tola and his organization are pushing people to suicide? Did you arrive at this from another cursory study of the newspapers?

You may be on to something here. At the very least his organization has been ineffective if you consider the measure of his success as result based. 

Do you have a report to share?

GTAngler posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Yes. Are you suggesting that Tola and his organization are pushing people to suicide? Did you arrive at this from another cursory study of the newspapers?

You may be on to something here. At the very least his organization has been ineffective if you consider the measure of his success as result based. 

How do you measure success? What cost do you put on a human life? Please answer honestly. As far as I am concerned, if one life was saved, it's success. 

Success is result based. Ever since Tola's organization have operated in Guyana we have seen the suicide rate rising, we can assume zero impact. Today Guyana is at the 1 and 2 position as the country with the highest suicide rate per capita on two different rating systems.

We should not all be like cattle, afraid to question effectiveness and validity of these fly by night organizations because we are afraid to be labelled as politically incorrect. A lot of these groups are not held accountable, they hold fund raisers, solicit donations from businesses and individuals but offer no visibility into how the money is spent and what percent actually goes to help vulnerable people. In addition Tola was asked for years to provide this information about his organization but always found an excuse to dodge the questions. 

There is no evidence, nor can there be that would show that any lives were saved. What we can measure is from a holistic approach, the suicide rate over time. This is how the police measure crime fighting, pollution is measured etc. Why not suicide. 

antabanta posted:

Do you have a report to share?

Yes, see for yourself the ineffectiveness of these fly by night suicide groups.  Tola's group has been in Guyana for years and yet the suicide rate has sky rocketed. 

https://www.telesurtv.net/engl...s-20170415-0009.html

Guyana, Nation with Highest Suicide Rate, Fights Mental Illness

 

Guyana has the world's highest suicide rate. | Photo: Reuters

Published 15 April 2017
 
Guyana's Ministry of Health is investing millions into a new program to reduce and possibly eliminate instances of attempted suicide and self-harm.

Guyana’s Ministry of Health on Saturday announced plans to launch a nationwide campaign tackling mental illness, Jamaica Observer reports, citing the country’s concerning suicide epidemic. 

Guyana, one of South America’s smallest countries, currently has the highest suicide rate in the world, according to the World Health Organization.

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Do you have a report to share?

Yes, see for yourself the ineffectiveness of these fly by night suicide groups.  Tola's group has been in Guyana for years and yet the suicide rate has sky rocketed. 

https://www.telesurtv.net/engl...s-20170415-0009.html

Guyana, Nation with Highest Suicide Rate, Fights Mental Illness

 

Guyana has the world's highest suicide rate. | Photo: Reuters

Published 15 April 2017
 
Guyana's Ministry of Health is investing millions into a new program to reduce and possibly eliminate instances of attempted suicide and self-harm.

Guyana’s Ministry of Health on Saturday announced plans to launch a nationwide campaign tackling mental illness, Jamaica Observer reports, citing the country’s concerning suicide epidemic. 

Guyana, one of South America’s smallest countries, currently has the highest suicide rate in the world, according to the World Health Organization.

Where is there mention of the work done by Tola's group?

Drugb posted:
GTAngler posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Yes. Are you suggesting that Tola and his organization are pushing people to suicide? Did you arrive at this from another cursory study of the newspapers?

You may be on to something here. At the very least his organization has been ineffective if you consider the measure of his success as result based. 

How do you measure success? What cost do you put on a human life? Please answer honestly. As far as I am concerned, if one life was saved, it's success. 

Success is result based. Ever since Tola's organization have operated in Guyana we have seen the suicide rate rising, we can assume zero impact. Today Guyana is at the 1 and 2 position as the country with the highest suicide rate per capita on two different rating systems.

We should not all be like cattle, afraid to question effectiveness and validity of these fly by night organizations because we are afraid to be labelled as politically incorrect. A lot of these groups are not held accountable, they hold fund raisers, solicit donations from businesses and individuals but offer no visibility into how the money is spent and what percent actually goes to help vulnerable people. In addition Tola was asked for years to provide this information about his organization but always found an excuse to dodge the questions. 

There is no evidence, nor can there be that would show that any lives were saved. What we can measure is from a holistic approach, the suicide rate over time. This is how the police measure crime fighting, pollution is measured etc. Why not suicide. 

How do you know the impact of the groups is zero? How do you know that the rate would not be higher without the groups?

Drugb posted:
 

Yes, see for yourself the ineffectiveness of these fly by night suicide groups.  Tola's group has been in Guyana for years and yet the suicide rate has sky rocketed. 

 

 

Dankey Rugbeer like you pulling stats info from your anus. How far up?

antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Do you have a report to share?

Yes, see for yourself the ineffectiveness of these fly by night suicide groups.  Tola's group has been in Guyana for years and yet the suicide rate has sky rocketed. 

https://www.telesurtv.net/engl...s-20170415-0009.html

Guyana, Nation with Highest Suicide Rate, Fights Mental Illness

 

Guyana has the world's highest suicide rate. | Photo: Reuters

Published 15 April 2017
 
Guyana's Ministry of Health is investing millions into a new program to reduce and possibly eliminate instances of attempted suicide and self-harm.

Guyana’s Ministry of Health on Saturday announced plans to launch a nationwide campaign tackling mental illness, Jamaica Observer reports, citing the country’s concerning suicide epidemic. 

Guyana, one of South America’s smallest countries, currently has the highest suicide rate in the world, according to the World Health Organization.

Where is there mention of the work done by Tola's group?

I just love debating you, you make my points for me without even trying. This is exactly the point, despite Tola's group being in the country for years, there is no evidence that they did any good, ineffective at best, in fact some may even conclude that they contributed to the rise in suicide cases. 

antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
GTAngler posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Yes. Are you suggesting that Tola and his organization are pushing people to suicide? Did you arrive at this from another cursory study of the newspapers?

You may be on to something here. At the very least his organization has been ineffective if you consider the measure of his success as result based. 

How do you measure success? What cost do you put on a human life? Please answer honestly. As far as I am concerned, if one life was saved, it's success. 

Success is result based. Ever since Tola's organization have operated in Guyana we have seen the suicide rate rising, we can assume zero impact. Today Guyana is at the 1 and 2 position as the country with the highest suicide rate per capita on two different rating systems.

We should not all be like cattle, afraid to question effectiveness and validity of these fly by night organizations because we are afraid to be labelled as politically incorrect. A lot of these groups are not held accountable, they hold fund raisers, solicit donations from businesses and individuals but offer no visibility into how the money is spent and what percent actually goes to help vulnerable people. In addition Tola was asked for years to provide this information about his organization but always found an excuse to dodge the questions. 

There is no evidence, nor can there be that would show that any lives were saved. What we can measure is from a holistic approach, the suicide rate over time. This is how the police measure crime fighting, pollution is measured etc. Why not suicide. 

How do you know the impact of the groups is zero? How do you know that the rate would not be higher without the groups?

Bai like yuh head hard, how can anyone prove that Tola prevented any suicide? You would need a time machine and two parallel universe to prove this. Run a parallel test with Tola's group involvement and one without then compare the results.  This is practically impossible. What we know for sure is that under Tola's tutelage the country suicide rate increased to the highest in the world. By inference one can surmise that he was ineffective. 

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Do you have a report to share?

Yes, see for yourself the ineffectiveness of these fly by night suicide groups.  Tola's group has been in Guyana for years and yet the suicide rate has sky rocketed. 

https://www.telesurtv.net/engl...s-20170415-0009.html

Guyana, Nation with Highest Suicide Rate, Fights Mental Illness

 

Guyana has the world's highest suicide rate. | Photo: Reuters

Published 15 April 2017
 
Guyana's Ministry of Health is investing millions into a new program to reduce and possibly eliminate instances of attempted suicide and self-harm.

Guyana’s Ministry of Health on Saturday announced plans to launch a nationwide campaign tackling mental illness, Jamaica Observer reports, citing the country’s concerning suicide epidemic. 

Guyana, one of South America’s smallest countries, currently has the highest suicide rate in the world, according to the World Health Organization.

Where is there mention of the work done by Tola's group?

I just love debating you, you make my points for me without even trying. This is exactly the point, despite Tola's group being in the country for years, there is no evidence that they did any good, ineffective at best, in fact some may even conclude that they contributed to the rise in suicide cases. 

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
GTAngler posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

Yes. Are you suggesting that Tola and his organization are pushing people to suicide? Did you arrive at this from another cursory study of the newspapers?

You may be on to something here. At the very least his organization has been ineffective if you consider the measure of his success as result based. 

How do you measure success? What cost do you put on a human life? Please answer honestly. As far as I am concerned, if one life was saved, it's success. 

Success is result based. Ever since Tola's organization have operated in Guyana we have seen the suicide rate rising, we can assume zero impact. Today Guyana is at the 1 and 2 position as the country with the highest suicide rate per capita on two different rating systems.

We should not all be like cattle, afraid to question effectiveness and validity of these fly by night organizations because we are afraid to be labelled as politically incorrect. A lot of these groups are not held accountable, they hold fund raisers, solicit donations from businesses and individuals but offer no visibility into how the money is spent and what percent actually goes to help vulnerable people. In addition Tola was asked for years to provide this information about his organization but always found an excuse to dodge the questions. 

There is no evidence, nor can there be that would show that any lives were saved. What we can measure is from a holistic approach, the suicide rate over time. This is how the police measure crime fighting, pollution is measured etc. Why not suicide. 

How do you know the impact of the groups is zero? How do you know that the rate would not be higher without the groups?

Bai like yuh head hard, how can anyone prove that Tola prevented any suicide? You would need a time machine and two parallel universe to prove this. Run a parallel test with Tola's group involvement and one without then compare the results.  This is practically impossible. What we know for sure is that under Tola's tutelage the country suicide rate increased to the highest in the world. By inference one can surmise that he was ineffective. 

I haven't made any claims or accusations one way or the other. The impact of the organization would be evident from their records - very simple. Any dunce can see that the would have case files that can be perused. If they are working on cases that are suicidal then they're effective.

The question is, how do you know they're not? On what grounds are you accusing Tola of ineffectiveness? Or were you just experiencing another spasm of verbal diarrhea? You should seek medical assistance and stop these embarrassing posts. While you're at it, take the other idiots along. You might get a group rate from the doctor.

antabanta posted:

I haven't made any claims or accusations one way or the other. The impact of the organization would be evident from their records - very simple. Any dunce can see that the would have case files that can be perused. If they are working on cases that are suicidal then they're effective.

The question is, how do you know they're not? On what grounds are you accusing Tola of ineffectiveness? Or were you just experiencing another spasm of verbal diarrhea? You should seek medical assistance and stop these embarrassing posts. While you're at it, take the other idiots along. You might get a group rate from the doctor.

Nonsense, you must be related to Tola to go to such great lengths to defend his organization. The proof is in the pudding, the suicide rate in guyana is # 1 in the world, what other evidence do you need? Why would you put any credence in "records" from an organization tooting its own horn?  They could make up any nonsense and sell you pig in bag. Meanwhile the one truth that you and Tola can't refute is the police records of the # of suicides in Guyana and the WHO report and acknowledgement that Guyana is #1 suicide capitol in the world per capita. In fact Guyana so popular for suicide, which reflects Tola's ineffectiveness, that people take suicide vacations there. Remember the recent British woman, and the others that jumped off the Kaieteur?

antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

I haven't made any claims or accusations one way or the other. The impact of the organization would be evident from their records - very simple. Any dunce can see that the would have case files that can be perused. If they are working on cases that are suicidal then they're effective.

The question is, how do you know they're not? On what grounds are you accusing Tola of ineffectiveness? Or were you just experiencing another spasm of verbal diarrhea? You should seek medical assistance and stop these embarrassing posts. While you're at it, take the other idiots along. You might get a group rate from the doctor.

Nonsense, you must be related to Tola to go to such great lengths to defend his organization. The proof is in the pudding, the suicide rate in guyana is # 1 in the world, what other evidence do you need? Why would you put any credence in "records" from an organization tooting its own horn?  They could make up any nonsense and sell you pig in bag. Meanwhile the one truth that you and Tola can't refute is the police records of the # of suicides in Guyana and the WHO report and acknowledgement that Guyana is #1 suicide capitol in the world per capita. In fact Guyana so popular for suicide, which reflects Tola's ineffectiveness, that people take suicide vacations there. Remember the recent British woman, and the others that jumped off the Kaieteur?

Use some common sense. All you have to do is sit in the office and see who comes and goes. The fact is, as long as the organization has cases (people seeking help), then the organization is effective. Of course, it is probably too simple for you to consider that the rate of suicide, or the increase in the rate, is greater the suicide prevention organizations can handle. The increase in suicides reflects the dire situation in the country as opposed to the effectiveness of the organizations. The organizations can only counsel people, they cannot reduce the causes of suicide.

Tola is my brother. Me and he used to pitch marble together.

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

Anta,

you have a lot of patience with that fella.

Django posted:
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

Anta,

you have a lot of patience with that fella.

Them bais think they can wear you down with incessant BS. They lucky I don't have as much time as I did ten years ago.

antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

To extrapolate, tell us how the police measure themselves on crime. How many crimes they investigate or the crime rate. As far as I have seen it is the crime rate going down that is tooted by the police organization, not how many investigations they did.  This is the same for suicide, not whether people come to them for help. There is no evidence that Tola ever helped anyone, the only evidence we have to go by is Guyana is # 1 in suicide per capita. 

antabanta posted

Use some common sense. All you have to do is sit in the office and see who comes and goes. The fact is, as long as the organization has cases (people seeking help), then the organization is effective. Of course, it is probably too simple for you to consider that the rate of suicide, or the increase in the rate, is greater the suicide prevention organizations can handle. The increase in suicides reflects the dire situation in the country as opposed to the effectiveness of the organizations. The organizations can only counsel people, they cannot reduce the causes of suicide.

Tola is my brother. Me and he used to pitch marble together.

More nonsense, who knows they could be selling drugs out of the office for all we know. This is not a measure of effectiveness. Suicidal people don't normally go to an outreach in person because of the stigma attached to the disease, they would rather call a hotline and be anonymous. The increase in suicide reflects ineffective outreach such as Tola's organization. 

No wonder you try to defend Tola, you and he is buddy friend, so already you are biased in his favor. 

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

To extrapolate, tell us how the police measure themselves on crime. How many crimes they investigate or the crime rate. As far as I have seen it is the crime rate going down that is tooted by the police organization, not how many investigations they did.  This is the same for suicide, not whether people come to them for help. There is no evidence that Tola ever helped anyone, the only evidence we have to go by is Guyana is # 1 in suicide per capita. 

This is not only bull shit but also some square blocks mixed in from the fabulous GNI dankeybeer. 

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:
Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So in the absence of no evidence, you use obeah to know that they had no effect? Good perseverance. Perhaps one day you'll win one of the debates.

The evidence is provided, the WHO report proclaiming that Guyana as the #1 suicide capital of the world.  Irrefutable evidence even to the blind. 

That is evidence of suicide, not evidence of the work of the organizations.

To extrapolate, tell us how the police measure themselves on crime. How many crimes they investigate or the crime rate. As far as I have seen it is the crime rate going down that is tooted by the police organization, not how many investigations they did.  This is the same for suicide, not whether people come to them for help. There is no evidence that Tola ever helped anyone, the only evidence we have to go by is Guyana is # 1 in suicide per capita. 

How do you know there's no evidence that Tola helped anyone? Please present your investigation on his organization. One deterrent to crime is punishment. Another is prosperity. Which one of these do you think would have prevented Robin Williams' suicide? Tell us how suicide prevention organizations can reduce the causes of suicide.

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted

Use some common sense. All you have to do is sit in the office and see who comes and goes. The fact is, as long as the organization has cases (people seeking help), then the organization is effective. Of course, it is probably too simple for you to consider that the rate of suicide, or the increase in the rate, is greater the suicide prevention organizations can handle. The increase in suicides reflects the dire situation in the country as opposed to the effectiveness of the organizations. The organizations can only counsel people, they cannot reduce the causes of suicide.

Tola is my brother. Me and he used to pitch marble together.

More nonsense, who knows they could be selling drugs out of the office for all we know. This is not a measure of effectiveness. Suicidal people don't normally go to an outreach in person because of the stigma attached to the disease, they would rather call a hotline and be anonymous. The increase in suicide reflects ineffective outreach such as Tola's organization. 

No wonder you try to defend Tola, you and he is buddy friend, so already you are biased in his favor. 

So you're saying we can measure the phone calls? Don't be jealous of my relationship with Tola, it is irrelevant. Have you somehow extrapolated that Tola's organization is one of the causes of suicide? It is amusing how you manage to insert that little negative insinuation about drugs. Very sly.

antabanta posted:

How do you know there's no evidence that Tola helped anyone? Please present your investigation on his organization. One deterrent to crime is punishment. Another is prosperity. Which one of these do you think would have prevented Robin Williams' suicide? Tell us how suicide prevention organizations can reduce the causes of suicide.

I repeat again, there is no evidence that Tola ever prevented a suicide. What is evident is that his organization's work had adverse impact on Guyana's suicide rate. From this fact we can extrapolate that there were ineffective, only collecting donations and have no hard data to show that they made a difference. Not even a photo of them cutting a rope to save a hanging person or knocking a bottle of malathion from a victim's mouth. 

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

How do you know there's no evidence that Tola helped anyone? Please present your investigation on his organization. One deterrent to crime is punishment. Another is prosperity. Which one of these do you think would have prevented Robin Williams' suicide? Tell us how suicide prevention organizations can reduce the causes of suicide.

I repeat again, there is no evidence that Tola ever prevented a suicide. What is evident is that his organization's work had adverse impact on Guyana's suicide rate. From this fact we can extrapolate that there were ineffective, only collecting donations and have no hard data to show that they made a difference. Not even a photo of them cutting a rope to save a hanging person or knocking a bottle of malathion from a victim's mouth. 

On what then is your accusation based? You stated "Looks like Tola's organization is not doing such a good job..." and "who knows they could be selling drugs out of the office for all we know..." Lacking evidence of their operational effectiveness, are these accusations based on brain farts?

How is it evident that his organization's work had adverse impact on Guyana's suicide rate? Please provide us the data from your detailed or cursory studies that shows a direct correlation between the actions of the organization and suicides.

antabanta posted:

So you're saying we can measure the phone calls? Don't be jealous of my relationship with Tola, it is irrelevant. Have you somehow extrapolated that Tola's organization is one of the causes of suicide? It is amusing how you manage to insert that little negative insinuation about drugs. Very sly.

If you genuinely wanted to know about measuring Suicide Prevention program, you should read this link.  Nowhere does it mention phone calls, organization data as part of the criteria. I suspect you are not interested in the details as your motive is to protect your marble playing buddy who might be enriching himself at the expense of our most vulnerable members of society. 

http://www.health.gov.au/inter...llenges-of-measuring

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

So you're saying we can measure the phone calls? Don't be jealous of my relationship with Tola, it is irrelevant. Have you somehow extrapolated that Tola's organization is one of the causes of suicide? It is amusing how you manage to insert that little negative insinuation about drugs. Very sly.

If you genuinely wanted to know about measuring Suicide Prevention program, you should read this link.  Nowhere does it mention phone calls, organization data as part of the criteria. I suspect you are not interested in the details as your motive is to protect your marble playing buddy who might be enriching himself at the expense of our most vulnerable members of society. 

http://www.health.gov.au/inter...llenges-of-measuring

 You have me cracking up. The sweet thing about Google is that people who offer links to material that they do not read really make fools of themselves. I bet my bottom dollar that you did not read that material. Or, if you read it, you did not understand it.

Please tell us how you know that Tola's organization has had no effect on those people with suicide tendencies with whom the organization has had contact.

Which of the cases the organization has managed did still commit suicide?

How many people who have read or heard educational or counseling material provided by the organization still committed suicide?

Which of the targeted prevention activities of the organization have failed?

antabanta posted:

 You have me cracking up. The sweet thing about Google is that people who offer links to material that they do not read really make fools of themselves. I bet my bottom dollar that you did not read that material. Or, if you read it, you did not understand it.

Please tell us how you know that Tola's organization has had no effect on those people with suicide tendencies with whom the organization has had contact.

Which of the cases the organization has managed did still commit suicide?

How many people who have read or heard educational or counseling material provided by the organization still committed suicide?

Which of the targeted prevention activities of the organization have failed?

Ineffective at best, at worst they encouraged more suicide. I would suggest that they get out of Guyana. As doctors say, it is better to do no harm. The #1 ranking of Guyana as suicide capital of the world is all the evidence that is needed to proclaim that Tola and company are ineffective. Case records don't mean squat if the statistics is not in their favor.  

Drugb posted:
antabanta posted:

 You have me cracking up. The sweet thing about Google is that people who offer links to material that they do not read really make fools of themselves. I bet my bottom dollar that you did not read that material. Or, if you read it, you did not understand it.

Please tell us how you know that Tola's organization has had no effect on those people with suicide tendencies with whom the organization has had contact.

Which of the cases the organization has managed did still commit suicide?

How many people who have read or heard educational or counseling material provided by the organization still committed suicide?

Which of the targeted prevention activities of the organization have failed?

Ineffective at best, at worst they encouraged more suicide. I would suggest that they get out of Guyana. As doctors say, it is better to do no harm. The #1 ranking of Guyana as suicide capital of the world is all the evidence that is needed to proclaim that Tola and company are ineffective. Case records don't mean squat if the statistics is not in their favor.  

You are a jackass hence the asinine comment. Can you imagine what the volume would have been if his team did not do some work? You are a useless brayer, and naysayer. Unlike you, Tola is a doer and he doesn't boast about his works.

 I don't see your name on the roster to run on Oct 18th in Maplewood for suicide prevention. Drugb 

Druggie your claim that the suicide prevention group ( I.E Tola's ) is not nor has ever been effective, but yet you have not displayed any solutions to this epidemic that plagues not only Guyana. Is it because you neither have a solution for this dilemma or even capable of coming up with anything constructive, I gather your dilemma is your mediocre disposition of reasoning.         

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×
×