Actually these things are all in your head, caribJ. You see at no time I ever denied Indian racism. This is the constant them of my writing. Speaking about regressions...they can be used to quantify the racism on both sides. It is much better than pissing in the wind narrative subjective assertions like yours from an anonymous handle. I hope some young Guyanese will take up the challenge...because I have other interests.

I have done MORE THAN YOU CARIBJ to improve race relations in Guyana. I am not responsible for their comments. The moderator is the one responsible for banning them. I would have.

I am first to say that not all indians are racists. That would invalidate my proposition that racism is a cultivated habit. I said it is a constant in the indian community for several reasons listed.

Racism in our society presently is manifestly in the tribalized politics centered on parties. I pointed out that the present issue with Nagamottoo is ravi dev driven and it is completely on massaging racism. He claims he is not indian...meaning he is with the black people and predicating a form of self hate all of which is pure nonsense to make Indians mad.

It has leverage and political capital because it has a latent reservoir of racism in the culture to be tapped activated and transform int a significant political movement.

I am willing to defend that before any academic group because my source material, is not impoverished. Actually, it is quite fecund. This board may not be a representation of indians in general but it distills out what is fertile ground in the culture. Note I also grew up in it, knows all its nuanced  expressions and none of it is good for us if we are to build a future.

At my age I am quite competent to defend any position I assert. As I said, I have lots of source material since I make no off the wall statements. What is off the wall is the opposite view that we hear all the time that highlights what I speak of from the abundance of idiots claiming superior itellectual capacities

When you claim that YOUR pastor is encouraging you with your RACISM. he becomes party to your BIGOTRY.

It is sad that a BLACK MAN, is going to be party to an INDO SUPREMACIST in lambasting black people.

So tell your pastor to BUTT out of an issue that HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND!

You people have nuff time on your hands to argue and pontificate on the internet. Do any of you fellas work or go to school???? Where do you find the time to massage each other comments?

The single most important problem here is that none of you are honest and you are hiding behind a fake name (except for TK I believe). I am sure all of you or some of you will not express the same positions in public in response to each other. ...

By the way, this Danyeal fella sounds a lot like Freddie Kissoon...maybe he is.   

Unless you are CONFRONTING  the myth  "bad black man beating up we poor Indians". You are doing NOTHING!

TK, these aren't comments by a few Indians.  These comments summarize exactly how Africans perceive Indians, and unless Indians are VISIBLY fighting AGAINST this bigotry, they are NOT contributing to improved relations. 

Now you can play PC, with political elites who will be PC back to you, and then fool yourself that this is improving ethnic relations.

IT IS NOT!  I know exactly the conversation which occurs among Afro Guyanese and why they don't trust Indians.  What the SAME people who play PC with you say when you aren't around!

TK.  NO one denies the existence of African racism towards Indians.  When it does occur many Africans speak out to stop it.  As a result one will NOT see open manifestations of this among credible people.

Indian racism is open.  Few Indians OPENLY condemn it, so now we have Jagdeo of all people who can OPENLY spread this poison, together with his pals at Guyana Times.  Why do they do this?  Because they are NOT shamed into knowing that this is WRONG, and that these views do not enhoy widespread support.

So continue to do your regression analysis about race based voting.  That does NOT measure racism.  It measures RACIAL INSECURITY, which arises from racism perpetuated by the elites.

I have no doubt that within the PNC exist many African bigots.  They keep their views to THEMSELVES, as the Africans in APNU, starting with Granger HIMSELF, will SHAME them.  So they keep their opinions QUIET.

So quit pretending as if there is equivalency in how African and Indian bigotry manifest in Guyana in 2015.

DAILY we see loud screams of Indo SUPREMACY, from Jagdeo, and from the Guyana Times.  Even LUNCHEON had to complain about this!

vish, it is none of your bloody business what people here do with their free time . . . only idle antiman feels a need to ponder and to inquire

it is also none of your bloody business why they choose to post anonymously . . . or not

as to honesty, i suggest u stop guiltily projecting your own mendacity on to others much more worthy . . . much much much more civilized

that's a low-functioning bush league move long favored by PPP paid posters of yore

tek my advice; you'll end up looking less a fool

And the fact that Jagdeo, Ravi Dev, the Guyana Times, and others were so confident that open bigotry against blacks (and those Indians willing to cooperate with them) would work is the problem.

IT WORKED.

Now compare this with the crowds of Africans who embraced Roopnarine in 2011 (some claim that it was HE, and not Granger, who was responsible for the massive improvement in the PNC/APNU performance over 2006).  And again Moses Nagamootoo. to the point where when a disturbance was occurring in G/town Nagamootoo went out and calmed the people and THEY LISTENED.  None of this "we en gun listen to no collie man".

It is about time that the issue of Indian racism is analyzed and discussed.  The racism of the PNC, during the 60s disturbances, and during the Burnham era, has been discussed to death, and in combination with the anti Indian attitudes of Africans which enabled it.

But when light is shone on Indian racism folks scurry and hide like cockroaches when one turns on the light.

TK you are NOT part of the process of getting Africans to stop believing that it is ONLY the EXCEPTIONAL Indian, who they can trust.  The thinking being that most are racist and clannish, and so DANGEROUS!

  And look at TK scrurrying around trying to divert discussion away fro racism.

Like I said before I don't care about the Indo KKK, which is why I had fun with them and their homoerotic fantasies about BIG BLACK INGNAR BIG LOLO PNC MAN.

But when I hear Jagdeo, Guyana Times and other POWERFUL people peddling the same NONSENCE. When a political party can win at least 95% of the Indian vote by screaming "Moses ah wan BLACKMAN", and then scream "if blackman win, dey gun rob and beat you and rape yuh daughter" and ALMOST WIN the election. Not only doing so in Indian strongholds, but terrifying Amerindians as well.

TK this isn't about a few anonymous aunty men who lust over large black penises, and are so jealous that they don't want their daughters to sample them.  This is about POWERFUL people in Guyana.

I will tell you this as an Afro Guyanese. Danyael sums up EXACTLY how most Africans feel about your average Indian. 

Yes, go to your political events where political elites "smile" at each other, as they seek alliances.

An anti Jagdeo PPP factions thinking that an APNU alliance was the only option which they had. 

A PNC faction thinking that baking a cake, and putting a THIN layer of Indian icing, would insulate them from the stench of the Burnham era, so increasing the possibility of victory.

THAT is not what your average Afro Guyanese cares about!

I don't care whether you are talking about the African corporate executive, or the African laborer, this is their view of Indians.  When Jagdeo screams nastiness about blacks, it is only the FEW Indians who ALREADY cooperate with blacks, and who are ISOLATED by Indians as a result, who they hear condemning them.  They need to hear MAINSTREAM Indians doing so!

So what are they to believe?  Not that most Indians share these opinions, but are too polite or scared to openly admit this?

If you want to reduce ethnic distrust YOU have to OPENLY discuss Indian racism and its impact on how Africans perceive them.

Don't waste time with some regression analysis which proves that both Indians and Africans and mixed (most being part African) vote race. Who is seriously disputing that fact?

And this is also why I warned the AFC Indos not to make more of Moses over Granger as they so often did before the election. 

I similarly warned them about screaming that they were the "king makers" because they brought in small sliver that enabled an election victory, especially when this was most likely LESS than the increased turn out in PNC strongholds.  They wanted to dominate the coalition gov't and to reduce Granger into being the eunuch that Sam Hinds was.

What I do note is that the vast majority of Indian posters on GNI, INCLUDING TK< are very ignorant of the mind set of the African, and also over focused on the Indian.  Unity means addressing the concerns of BOTH Indians and Africans, but they just don't seem to get that.

Yall watch out about dat dam over 60 thing yeh,Is not all ole people really ole some younger than they were at 20, says yours truly @ 61.

Interesting.  I have been condemned as an Indian hating racist.  Told that I love to drink the blood of dead Indians.  All because I demand that Indian racism be equated as African racism.

And you say NOTHING!

So of what use would I have been?  And at what point have you EVER been interested in discussing Indian racism?

As some one who is much closer to your age than I am to 20 I endorse that view.

First, I have confronted the myth in the official press and comments here in GNI. I have commented numerous times that Guyana Times and Jagdeo used the myth to subjugate Indos mentally into fearing blacks when there is no reason for that. The way to confront the myth is to write about it in the official press. Done that!! Second, I can't know how Africans in the majority feel about Indians unless you have some scientifically survey data to back up your testable assertions. Do you have some survey data?  

I have already discussed Indian racism in the official press. They have told me worse...on Facebook and here...

WHAT WORKED? JAGDEO LOST THE ELECTION THE LAST TIME I CHECKED.

Why should I deny any thing you say? YOu wont believe me...then I am Freddie if that is what you see.

What I say is not something to hide behind a curtain and say. I say it because it is public theater and the actors are our public figures each playing a role and voicing our most intimate thoughts. You see me as Freddi because you feel inclined to associate me with a public figure that most suits your profile of the one that annoys you for disinfecting your wounds.

Names are just labels...I wrote here with my real name and changed it because someone stole it and was misusing it on other Guyanese forums the internet. My real name matters to me.  I therefor write with one if they steal and pretend it believes what they want to frame it to believe then they can have it  and I will just use another. It is not the alias that matters but what is said. That you can attack, rip apart that with the tools your intellect can afford. Knowing my real name wont change that. It has nothing to do with labels but with universal themes being played out in our society.

Further, people claiming to be of the PPP said they will kill me. They used to send me numerous e mails with all sorts of threats. I do not put that bast the PPP plus others here including TK have been attacked in various ways inclusive of harassing them at their work place. What is said here may be casual chit chat to us but to others it is serious business. The PPP had a well funded group of people including Jason, Benn je Shadood, Amar and lots of GINA crew trying to take over this and other boards. Misir and Kwame engineered that and out of that funding sector came New Guyana Media. This is very serious to those folks in office.

If you want to measure racism you have to look at marginalization. Racism has to show up in discrimination and marginalization. You cannot only use the comments of ignars on GNI as your indicator of pervasive racism. Race based voting is a manifestation of racism. It is racism!! Racial insecurity comes from marginalization which in turn comes from racism. RACE VOTING IS RACISM. IF YOU VOTE FOR SOMEBODY BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE AND DISMISS THE CORRUPTION AND BAD POLICIES IT IS RACISM. IF YOU VOTE FOR A LEADER OF YOUR OWN RACE WHO HAS NO VISION OR PLAN IT IS RACISM. IF YOU VOTE FOR AN ETHNIC LEADER BECAUSE YOU WANT TO KEEP OUT BLACKMAN OR COOLIE MAN, THAT IS RACISM. So, I don't find the distinction convincing. We have to try our best to measure things. To quantify things. If you want to address the problem you have to back up your assertions. I have done that. Most Indians are racist...the voting data and survey data show that. The problem is the Indian percentages are not significantly different from Africans. Hence, it needs a solution. And the solution has to diffuse the insecurity simultaneously. Now you have to work with what you have. That means both the govt and PPP have to work jointly on some big national projects.

Racism is also underlying belief systems driven by some social ethos. It does not spring simply from capital acquisition incentives but also from incentivizing ( and wrongly) a culture to set its borders that this is what we do or who "we are" as as opposed to "who they are".

From that belief system the initial inertia is given to the process because the process of taking differential from the resources of the state etc is justified by it and marginalization where it shows up is after the fact. Marginalization matters but what matters also is the horrible attrition to the soul the contemptuous disrespect racism afflicts on the psyche. It damages both the racist and the object of racism because it is not only an economic model ( in instances) but a cultural one that validates its existence.

I have problem with these cultural studies. They are too subjective to be the only authority of racism. The last household income and expenditure survey took place in 1996. But that one showed the most marginalized group in terms of poverty indicators to be Amerindians followed by rural Indos. Unfortunately Jagdeo did not do another survey, so we don't have proxy of marginalization. Also, there has to be a detailed study of access to private and public employment, with serious controls for social preferences. They have to look at access to credit, scholarship distribution, house lot distributions, etc. No one seems willing to do it.

Bro...I am a trained scientist and worked all my life with analysis of logical systems and still do. I have great respect for philosophers, anthropologists, writers, poets  and even economists ( ah that dismal science) because they are all subjective arenas at their core.

We gain our understanding initially from examining our Cultural systems and their value. We decide what we ought to do and are obliged to do because that is only how we can kick start anything. Aquinas noted we get to know them because it is what we do, were our natures different our duties would be different. We study our natures and our reality emerges. All reality quantified or qualified are what we make up as we go along because it is who we are.

Adam Smith was a social scientists So was Marx and Keynes. Their assumptions are about social ones and in efect cultural ethosr...men by their nature will seek to conserve their self interest hence the invisible hand orchestrating the symphony of free markets.....Men by nature are brutish and will seek value not due them because only labor has intrinsic value and ultimately the laborer will over throw the usurper of his labor...dialectal materialism.... Standing betwix and between is the concept aggregate demand and  that government intervention matters are all models rely on cultural assumptions.  As long as one can see discernible effects of behavior and only because we can see them can we formalize opinions about them and quantify their consequences.

I also love the work of great poets and philosophers. The point I am making is the opening post and CaribJ made some positivists (not normative) statements. In these instances we have to put some data to what we believe. Charges of discrimination and racism are serious accusations. Therefore, we also need to do sound data analyses and not just descriptive statistics as I have done with my tables from LAPOP. Serious controls have to be added to isolate racism in employment, voting, etc. Any social science discipline these days will ask for such.

So TK do you have data for Indians?  

Africans do not trust Indian leadership. THAT fact must be obvious to you.  Why do you think that this is the case?  If you do want the national unity, whicvh you claim that you do, then do you not think that you ought to have factored that into the conversation?

Your comments were not about Indian racism, but about PPP tactics in the last election.  Indian racism didn't begin when the PPP decided to run their campaign on being the "coolie party". 

It was evident from 1992 when the PPP came into office and began to squeeze out blacks.  They did so with the FULL SUPPORT of the Indian population, because there was almost no criticism of this.

He almost won, and he galvanized the vast majority of the Indian vote in a way that the PPP hasn't done in a long time. 

You like data, so take note of the fact that the PPP increased its votes for the first time since 1997, even as the Indian population is shrinking.  The PPP added 30k voters on the coast, and given how racially polarized this election was, you know full well that they were Indians.

The PPP only lost because they didn't factor into the equation the ability of APNU to turn out almost record levels of votes in PNC strongholds, where the previously disaffected voted in large numbers.

Why do you think that Jagdeo is so pompous and arrogant now?  He has the full support of Indians, and knows that APNU's hold over the disaffected element of their base is quite slippery.  The PPP is well positioned to do well in the LGE if APNU/AFC doesn't look sharp.

Excellent!  I think you just schooled TK about honesty and integrity.

So Guyana Times is a powerless ignar.  Jagdeo is a powerless ignar.  When the Chronicle wrote a full page editorial screaming that Africans are violent, useless and live on to feast off Indians, were these GNI ignars.

So continue to scurry like a cockroach and pretend as if it is only a few crotchety old men who engage in this bigotry.

And how is racial voting racism, when the reason why people vote race is because of the ethnic exclusion and marginalization which they have suffered.  Africans suffered in 1961-64 and 1992-2015.  Indians suffered from 1964-90/92.

Racial voting is a SYMPTOM of institutional racism.  It is NOT the cause.

Now here is the deal.  The issue of African institutional racism and the behavior of the PNC has been well analyzed.  We have leading African intellectuals who have been quite vocal that it existed, definitely during the Burnham era. 

But have we had any similar discussion of Indian institutional racism?  NO!  Is there a large body of Indian intellectuals who maintain credibility with Indians who are vocal about Indian institutional racism?  NO!

So here is where we are in the narrative of race in Guyana.

1.  Burnham was a racist who killed thousands of Indians. Indians were the main victims of the 62/64 violence and Sun Chapman was a plot by the PNC.  So we have baaad black man, innocent Indian.

2.  During the PPP era this demonization of blacks was used as JUSTIFICATION for Indian institutional racism.  When Africans complained, they were demonized as racists.

You can do all your regressions of you wish but if it is based on a flawed strategy the results will be flawed.  Race voting is a REACTION to institutional racism which BOTH Indian and African elites have been guilty of.

To blame ordinary powerless people for their political behavior is senseless, unless you endorse those Africans who abused Indians as racists for voting PPP in the last elections.  I don't.

I am doing no such thing.  I am saying that African and Indian elites have practiced institutional racism, which has adversely impacted ordinary Guyanese. 

The result is that Guyanese vote on the basis of "my leader is a corrupt, evil, and incompetent devil, but at least he will not starve me out like yours will".

You have to be kidding if you tell me that rural Africans are better off than rural Indians.

Did the survey break out based on race, or are you engaging on the simplistic Interior=Amerindian, rural=Indian, urban=African.

Any way scurry around like a cockroach to avoid any discussion on Indian institutional racism, which by the way isn't just the PPP, but also extends into the Indo dominated private sector.

There are lot's of indirect data in the LAPOP data set such as voting preferences. The voting preference is a good proxy for racial preferences since both of the major parties lack vision and have helped the stagnation of Guyana. The two main ethnic groups reflect different preferences in almost everything. That's how I can tell you there is a big problem. I don't rely on the thoughts of a few ignars or my close friends and family.

Let me summarize my statements.

1. Indian and African institutional racism and ethnic exclusion has been the norm since Guyanese have had some level of control of governance.

2.  The result is that the population is polarized based on ethnicity, due to their own experiences.

3.  The Jagans, with their "West on Trial" racist track have crafted a well developed narrative of the "savage black man beating up innocent Indians".  This has been used by the PPP, and by people like YOU, to avoid any serious discussion of Indian institutional racism.

4.  African institutional racism has been well discussed and analyzed, and some of the most vocal people on this were people like Walter Rodney, David Hinds, and Eusi Kwayana.  ALL of whom by the way continue to be well perceived by most Afro Guyanese.

So we do not have a balanced narrative on the African and the Indian institutional racisms.  This is why the PNC cannot speak to issues of race in the way that the PPP can, because any defense of African interests is seen in the light of African violence, because of the demonization of the Afro Guyanese.

Not only does the PPP speak to race, but they do so in most vulgar and bigoted terms, and they do so because they aren't shamed.  WHERE are the Indians equivalent to David Hinds, Rodney and Kwayana, who enjoy credibility among Indians, but who will NOT tolerate Indian bigotry. 

Yes there are Indians who do speak out on this, and then they are banished from the Indian community.

1. Why can an African speak to African bigotry and African institutional racism, and yet continue to enjoy credibility among Africans while the reverse isn't true?

2. And why do Africans immediately silence African bigots, while Indian bigits can spew their poison without shame?

These are questions which YOU need to answer instead of scurrying around trying to pretend that the PPP was not racist, when every African knows fully well that they were.

A major problem that you have is that you rely on numbers, but do not place your data within context.  You need QUALITATIVE analysis to give context to your quantitative data.

So what do you expect of Guyanese.

Indians lived under PNC repression from 1964 to around 1990, when Hoyte was finally able to side line the Burnham hardliners.  So why will Indians trust the PNC, which after all dominates APNU and the coalition gov't.

Africans lived under the PPP in the early 60s, when Janet was attempting to ethnically exclude African and mixed civil servants.  The PPP came back in 1992 and this time was quite successful in squeezing Africans out of leadership.  In addition that "bad black man" mantra. gave the private sector the justification to do the same.

So why will Africans trust a PPP government.

So all LAPOP tells you is that Africans/mixed and Indians vote race because of their bad experience with institutional racism.  If that is what you base your argument then you have NOTHING.

Now continue to avoid analysis as to why in Guyana it is legitimate to chatter about what Africans have done to Indians, and yet when one chats about what Indians have done to Africans we get all sorts of diversionary tactics.

THIS is why Jagdeo can go out and scream about "blackman" in PUBLIC.  No African hardliner dare do that.

Stop inventing a straw man. I never said the PPP is not racist. The evidence show (and this was written in public several times) that the PPP led the most explicitly racist election campaign in 2011 and 2015. You and I agree completely on 1, 2 and 3 above. Number 4 is largely correct, but I don't agree with the analyses that the racism is mainly a cultural reflection and stereotypes are the end result of racism. My view is the harsh geography of Guyana make economic failure more likely and therefore the tendency to blame the other group. The handicap geography imposed was made worse by some terrible leaders since independence.

Quants is the only game in town. Even qualitative conditions can be made quantitative. I hope some kids in their 20s can take up this challenge. This is not hard...just that I have other interests and I have burned up a lot of time on research on Guyana. It is time to move on for me...

We will need data now to verify whether rural Indians are now better off. I don't have to scurry off like a cockroach...I am certain you will not risk telling me that in my face. I have been calling PPP racism in letters and numerous articles. Data is the only game in town.

I have already called out Guyana Times in many occasion...right here on GNI. I think there might still be a racebaiting thread. It is much easier to find flaws in an objective regressions. You can spot bull shit quite easily in quantitative work. However, how do you spot subjective bull shitting and continual straw man argument? Quantitative method is the only game in town.

Now, here you are doing flawed data inference. Jagdeo claims he was responsible for 30K more votes. Hmmmm...the last I checked new registration was about 90K, no? Hmmm...Jagdeo and his subjects will love this piece of logic.

CaribJ: "Racial voting is a SYMPTOM of institutional racism.  It is NOT the cause."

This is a very flawed argument. There is a feedback loop. Institutional racism CAUSE racial voting and racial voting CAUSE institutional racism by the nature of the society and social networks...see qualitative analyses not useful for endogenous feedbacks...you will need instrumental variables to disentangle the causation.

I am not interested in establishing social racism, i.e. how individuals of each race view individuals of other race(s).  I do not see this as a problem in Guyana, except among an ageing group wh still have vivid memories of the violence of the 60s, basically people over 65.

In terms of Guyanese there are many different ways that individual Indians and Africans see each other, and this has little effect.

My concern is abut intitutional racism, which I define as an ethnically based elite using its power to exclude another ethnic group, and to engage on patronage of the grass roots of their ethnic group in order to win their support.  This is what has created significant damage, ethnic distrust based on fear, and a cadre of inefficient, ineffective, corrupt, and incompetent gov't and private sector leadership.

Of course when you became an opponent of the PPP part of your narrative was about the racist tactics that they used.  You however have never placed this racist strategy within a larger context. 

If Indians didnt feel comfortable with this narrative, the PPP could NOT use it.  And of course this neglects a larger context of Indian institutional racism which manifests within the private sector where Africans have experienced bias in many areas. 

It of course also pretends that the PPPs racism only began in 2011, when in fact it began in the 1961 election when Jagdeo slyly accepted the premise of apan jhat, knowing that the lager Indian vote would guarantee victory, if Indians could be enticed to vote race.