I'm almost certain no one here would tear up their shirt and throw ashes in their hair over it. Probably wouldn't even be worth a mention.

I personally wouldn't care very much. In a modern democratic state, private individuals are allowed to say any nonsense they so choose and pursue any ideology they so choose.

In America, we have Muslims who are actively working to make America a Muslim nation subject to de Ummah and no one really cares.

I'm sure Guyana has Pan Africanists with a vision of Guyana that is African Hindutva. I personally don't care and neither does most people.

I only start opposing people when their actions start to infringe on the rights and prerogatives of others.

We all need to learn to not care about small unimportant shyte and not extrapolate into infinity.

A few months ago Irfaan Ali was in the mid-east promoting trade and tourism with Guyana. He dressed like an Arab. An un-informed person, seeing him in the garb would think Guyana has a great many muslims.

I get ur point. There was a time under the PNC when Guyana pursued a Pan-Africanist agenda. And openly.

A country with some many races and religions, we tend to be communities in Guyana. But we are creeping towards this thing we called Guyanazation back in the 60's. 

Irfaan Ali's antics in the Mid-East is in NO WAY comparable to the treasonous, yes TREASONOUS (if that has currency any more in Guyana's failed state situation) presentation to his Nationalist Hindu friends last winter on behalf of our sitting Minister of Finance Ashni Singh

you do a disservice to the Guyanese people with these pitiful attempts to minimize/cover up what we all can see is the thinking and plotting of a racist clique at the HIGHEST LEVELS in the PPP government

When abbe see dem Punjabi farmers arriving by de jahaji boatload, I will be happy to share your hysteria. Until then I can ignore the rant of 1 man.

I honestly don't know if Ravi has that kinda pull in the Elite and by extension the PPP Government.

"Treasonous"? really bai? dah nah sung lil too outlandish?

it is truly sad to see you running interference for Ravi Dev and hastening to cover up the Jagdeoite PPP plans for permanent domination of Guyana

u are correct in that Ravi Dev's ideas are well known, and it is/was "small unimportant shyte" . . .  that is, until it became the thinking and the vision of those powerful forces in the PPP who would shape the destiny of Guyana if returned to office

Ravi Dev was speaking as the man who has Bharat Jagdeo's ear, and apparently is well on the way to functioning as Bharat Jagdeo's brain

do not insult every one's intelligence by pretending that the PPP today is not owned by the New GPC crowd . . . Dev was standing in for Ashni Singh, for crissakes!

you should be condemning, unreservedly, these dangerous kinds of policy prescriptions for a multi-ethnic Guyana instead of wishing up an "African Hindutva" to counterbalance and legitimize the neo-colonial race plans being hatched by Guyana's tipped economic czar and his crew in their taxpayer subsidized quarters at the Sanata complex

no one is "extrapolating into infinity" here . . . get a grip

Calm down fren. Yuh beginning to loose legitimacy.

how so? . . . not even sure what that even means, but i'll ask anyhow

and, when you're done with that, perhaps you'll find time to actually address my post in an intelligent, non-evasive, manner

Look Dude,

Accuse me and excoriate me for what I actually believe and try and propagate not what I don't. Almost no one in ROAR shared Ravi Dev's Hindutva beliefs. No donors, no campaign strategists, no consultants, etc. etc. With the exception of like 2 people who were basically letter writers and pontificators in NY. Ravi Dev and I actually had a falling out a decade ago because I unknowingly breached his Hindutva sensibilities. Until that point I had no idea he really believed that nonsense except in some vague inoperable/theoretical/academic manner which in my world counted for little since none of us shared his opinions and certainly were not prepared to act on it. He's apparently a true RSS devotee and actual initiate. I concede that point readily. I obviously should have known when my principal contact to the Prime Minister of India ran right through the RSS. I did not really think much of it at the time. For me it was a tolerable means to an end. This is the extent of ROAR's Hindutva. It was limited to Ravi Dev's personal opinion and that of 2 of his pals. The overwhelming majority of us just wanted to barter a decent deal for Indians within the Guyanese State in peaceful coexistence with Blacks. David Hinds more closely represents ROAR's majority opinion than does "Hindutva." Oh yea, and FYI....Ravi Dev was frequently read the riot act on almost every issue by ROAR's leading members in council so he wasn't maximum leader leading us to the promised land of Hindustan.

Most of the strongest activist leaders for ROAR were staunch Muslims, as in practicing Muslims. Witness the entire Berbice campaign was run by close maternal cousins of mine in 2001 (Muslims). The elected ROAR Regional Councillor for Region 6 was my cousin Harun.

Now to the beef of the matter you raise. Is it possible that the Indian elite have adopted a ROAR moderate to Ravi Dev Hindutva vision of Guyana as a means to the "insurance" they need to protect their loot and their new positions? Perfectly reasonable line of inquiry to make. Also it would make some sense.

That this has actually happened I don't know. But I would think an Indian elite would move to shoring up the base of their power which is Indian demographics. I can't imagine the Indian elite and the PPP is just gonna sit idly by and let Indian numbers slip to Opposition type numbers. That's not how power works in any time in any place.

My preference and the preference of most moderate Indians is for a strong shared governance formula which includes the multiracial/multiethnic State institutions. That the PNC seems intent on blocking this for whatever petty parochial reasons will leave us with this battle for supremacy as the Elite begins to act as a "party" unto itself.

It's so bad, I can't even move you or Caribj to see the wisdom of a racially/ethnically balanced police force, something that we take for granted in America as a given.

When this reasonable line of attack is choked off as a part of the solution to the security dilemma of Indians in Guyana, the only other avenue available will be taken by those who have incredible stakes at play like a mountain of cash and the desire to avoid jail.

thanks for the unsolicited ROAR tutorial . . . i'm not really that interested in alyuh inside tripe

however, the kind of shyte you endorse [i hilited them in bold/red] is the kind of shyte that leads to race war

people like you are scary/reckless in the dangerous way of the armchair warrior 4,000 miles away scratching his balls, cheering on the action

I felt you and others needed a ROAR tutorial since ya'll think ROAR was some Hindutva outfit since Ravi Dev had some Hindutva beliefs no one in ROAR cared for.

I endorse nothing chap, save for what I expressly say I endorse and support.

Lemme splain lil moh clear fuh yuh chap. My posts go back and forth between advocacy and analysis. I will say lots of stuff that I believe to be true as a development in Guyana which are anathema to be beliefs. Perhaps that confuses you. Perfectly understandable to a degree. You're no psychic nor do I expect you to be.

When I advocate something, I will make the point of clearly doing so. All else is just my two cents analysis. Nothing more. You seem to call that "cognitive dissonance." Its what Shaitaan personally believes and wants vs. what is actually happening according to Shaitaan.

What is highlighted above by you is pure analysis not advocacy or support. I will assume I don't need to lecture you on the difference so I trust you to withdraw that last remark about me trying to incite some race war from my basement here in Queens.

Some posters I doan bother to read period.

You, I read. If u carry on the way the way u r going, I would add u to that list of "no read." The same meaningless shyte.

Ravi Dev said what he said. I doan agree with him. I doan like Irfaan jackass ways. Neither did I like Walter Rodney and his Pan Africanist rants. I doan like CBJ because to me he is smiling jackass-empty head.

I read Caribj-as sson as he starts with shyte I stop reading.

I look for Leslie, too long rebuttals-I simply glance.

Now, as Shaitaan seys, " get over it."

The PPP since its creation have no SOP. That is why people in their group have so may varying voices speaking on their behalf. Which sows divisions. 

well, i think i've already made it clear that i regard y'all ROAR people as fellow-traveling opportunists, tailoring Hindutva as an organizing principle to suit your local ambition

i make it a point to call you out on the things you advocate clearly, and it is obvious that you do not like the 'exposure' . . . i have no problem with revisiting the record with a few clicks of my mouse if u want to go down that road

now, you may fully intend to "confuse" with your meanderings and contradictions for maximum polemical advantage, but i suspect that bit of childishness as tactics is just a consequence of you spending too much time in the company of mediocre people

so, let's examine this what u call "pure analysis" here . . .

when u juxtapose:

"I can't imagine the Indian elite and the PPP is just gonna sit idly by and let Indian numbers slip to Opposition type numbers. That's not how power works in any time in any place."

with

"When this reasonable line of attack [affirmative action for clerks in the civil service/forced recruitment in the GPF] is choked off as a part of the solution to the security dilemma of Indians in Guyana, the only other avenue available will be taken by those who have incredible stakes at play . . ."

you speak to the reasonableness of the neo-colonial, settler project being touted by Ravi Dev to the true believing Hindutva crowd in New Delhi

that, sir, is not "analysis" on your part, it's what intelligent people call "making a case for . . ." OK?

YOU making THAT case, in the Guyana situation, makes it impossible for ME to withdraw my 'incitement to race war' observation

I say bring back Buddy Gajraj as Home Affairs Minister and appoint Ravi as Ambassador to India.  He did an excellent Job marketing Guyana.

Caribny, here's what the Independent newspaper of the UK wrote about the Asians expelled by Idi Amin.

There were between 70,000 and 80,000 Asians at that time: about 30,000 held British citzenship, about 23,000 held Ugandan citizenship and the rest held Indian or Pakistani. Amin first said British citizens must go, then all Asians and finally exempted those with Ugandan citizenship.

In the end they nearly all went. The government cancelled the 12,000 applications for Ugandan citizenship that were pending and withdrew the Ugandan passports of others. They were given 90 days to leave and allowed to take pounds 50 with them. The first flight left Entebbe airport for Stanstead on 18 September.

But Amin's decision was not such a shock to anyone who had read the mood of Uganda. In October the previous year he had harangued leaders of the Asian community, telling them that in the 70 years they had been in Uganda only six Asian women had married Ugandan men. He demanded that they integrate and criticised them for splitting the citizenship of their families and not trusting their future in Uganda. He accused them of corruption, currency racketeering and bribery.

And for historical context, this is what the BBC reported at that time.

In the 1890s, 32,000 labourers from British India were brought to Southeast Africa under indentured labour contracts to work on the construction of the Uganda Railway. Most of the surviving Indians returned home, but 6,724 individuals decided to remain in the African Great Lakes after the line's completion.

The BBC went on to state that:

On 25 August 1972, Amin gave Uganda's Asians (mostly Gujaratis of Indian origin) 90 days to leave the country. Many of the Indians were citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies

Ravi Dev is now embedded with the Jagdeoite business elites, and has now revealed exactly the poor regard that they have for the non Indian population.  Did Ravi Dev make any mention of the fact that Guyana, Trinidad, and Suriname happen to be among the most multi racial multi cultural and multi religious countries in the Americas!  NO.  He posited the three as being India overseas.  This only makes you "uncomfortable".

Tell me is your "discomfort" only there because you want to insulate yourself from attacks from redux and I?  Are you really "uncomfortable"?

Now imagine a PPP victory.  Do you think that those statements aren't important?  Do you really think that Jagdeo is not lurking some where in all of this?

You did not condemn it, and to make matters worse, pretended as if these sentiments represent some recent reaction to anti Indian violence from elements of the PNC.

Since the early 20th C there have been conservative elements within the Indian elite who have sought to convert Guyana into some Indian colony.  Jagdeo especially has set out to economically and politically isolate non Indans, and to concentrate power within a narrow Indian elite.

And now Ravi Dev is screaming about some great "Indian civilization" in Trinidad, Guyana, and Suriname, packed with "majority" populations which are part of some pan Indian nation.

Well when last I checked, both Trinidad, and Guyana are 60% non Indian, and Suriname is almost 75% non Indian.  So tell me why you think that such sentiments are helpful, given the levels of ethnic insecurity which characterize all three nations!

If you thought it unimportant, why did you post it?  And given that Rav Dev's boss is one of the most powerful men in Guyana, and that both he and Jagdeo will DOMINATE Guyana, should the PPP win, you are being either dishonest or stupid.

But then you are quite adept at finding excuses when ever Indian racism rears its head.  

Most of your argument needs to be directed to Mr T.  I PRECISELY said that Idi Amin's expulsion of Ugandan Asians was racist because not only did he expel those with foreign passports, but also those with Ugandan passports.

You further state that the migration was a late 19th C one. So how many Indian born people would have existed within that population in 1972?

The fact remains that East African Asians were no angels.  They weren't liked in Kenya and Tanzania, even though neither country sought to expel them. 

If a group enters a society and refuses to integrate into it, then bad attitudes will be directed towards that group. So don't pretend as if there aren't real reasons for Indophobia in East Africa. This especially true when that same group has benefitted tremendously from the opportunities which living in that society provides.  You cannot take from a society, and not give something back, and clannish patterns of social and economic organization among Indians in Kenya and Tanzania, combined with extreme evidence of bigotry towards the black populations is largely responsible for the Indo phobia which you cite.

Look at Guyana.  The new wave of Chinese behave a lot like East African Asians.  One of the few factors which unite Guyanese of all ethnicities, and in fact Caribbean people in general is a growing Sino phobia.  Indeed reports of anti Chinese violence have emerged out of both Suriname and Jamaica.

Indeed the South Asian Indians in East Africa in post-colonial times were not exemplary. No excuse, but that may have been a two-way street though.

I have not seen T wrote on this thread since I heard him loud and clear.

So we should wait until then?  You do know that if masses of blacks arrive to block their entry folks like you will jump up and down and scream your Indian victimhood.  So why wait for that?

The motives are part of a plot to INDIANIZE Guyana.  Not to attract investment which Guyana needs.

Ravi Dev is telling Indian investors that "THEIR" people already are in Guyana, Suriname and Trinidad.  He is telling them that to ignore all the black and mixed populations, which collectively out number the Indian in ALL of the Caribbean societies which he cited. 

Already there are accusations that the PPP and their Indian elites seek to marginalize blacks. And then Ravi Dev (with the obvious approval of Jagdeo) is now throwing a match to light a flame.

The Punjabi farmers treat the Biharie farm labourers poorly. For centuries that has not changed. My foreparents endured the same sort of thing back in India.

What two way street is there?  Is there evidence that East African Asians in Kenya sought to integrate into Kenya, but were rebuffed?  No. 

They were developed as a privileged buffer group by the British, and were too short sighted to change their strategy as independence approached.

And the new Chinese migrants to the Caribbean are behaving the same way, and I predict that the final results will be just as dire, even if not at the hands of the politicians, who are all too corrupt to control this situation.

So Ravi, Bobby and Jagdeo are now "unimportant" people who one can ignore?

Stop trying to invent an African equivalent to justify Ravi Dev.  It does NOT exist.  Africans have a who different self definition of being Guyanese and we commented lengthily on that.

In fact Ravi Dev even wants them to invent some "African" religion and a notion of being part of some Pan African civilization.  In fact even considers the PNC leaders as self hating because they don't.

To the extent that Afro Guyanese consider themselves to be part of a larger whole, their identity will be rooted within the context of a larger Caribbean one.  Reading descriptions of Caribbean culture as published by the relevant authorities, the focus is on its diversity.

One People One Nation One Destiny.  Out of many one people.  Together we aspire, together we achieve.  That is the self definition of what being a Caribbean person is.

"legitimacy"?? . . . are you out of your gawd-fearing tiny mind?

do you seriously believe that i give a rat's ass whether yuu, siegnet, adds  me to your "no read" list? . . . u must be on f**king drugs!

dude, it is indeed your right to whistle past the 'hindutva Guyana style' graveyard being prepared for multi-racial democracy in Guyana by jagdeo dem and take your seat on the bus of the devious and the scampish with shaitaan, kari and the rest of the 'see no evil' crowd  . . . it is, at the end of the day, your own filthy affair

per all the foregoing, i suggest u take your own advice and "get over" your deluded bible-thumping self

1.  The African police force regularly attack  Africans, and indeed more than they attack Indians, so the notion that an ethnically balanced police force guarantees fairness or effectiveness is a pipe dream.  In fact Africans are probably the group which is most hostile to the police force at this time.

2.  I do recall asking you to furnish proof that the PPP actively discourages Indians from entering the police force or the army. Cheddi actively tried to get Indians into the armed forces, and even had a presidential guard which was 100% Indian.   

Do you suggest that Indians, and only Indians be forced to provide mandatory service to the armed forces?

If Indians aren't interested in joining the GDF and GPF, that would be just as foolish as rounding up blacks and forcing them to cut cane to ensure ethnic balance.  Amerindians serve in the armed forces in numbers commensurate with their population. Why don't Indians?

3.  The issue which Indians have is high crime.  Given that Indians are the most likely to be small business people, they will be disproportionately targeted as criminals seek out people with valuables who cannot defend themselves.  The PPP cronies have private militias, often using career criminals, who they arm.  Some of these armed criminals free lance on the vulnerable.

Shaitaan I would think that you would demand and over haul of the police force and of the courts.  Better equipped, better trained, better paid, and better administered.  That to me is what most people want!

"outlandish"? . . . really shaitaan, i know u know better

i choose my words carefully

when a representative of the sitting gov't exhorts his foreign audience to colonize his country in the same "appalling" way the Chinese are doing next door, and goes out of his way to point out that he and his highly placed policy colleagues have already in place, and stand ready to enhance, the means (immigrant visas, unlimited land, etc.) to facilitate this neo-colonial settler assault on Guyana's already fragile attempt at multi-racial democracy . . . yes, that stinks to high heaven of TREASON! No?

i can quote chapter and verse from Ravi Dev's little star turn last winter if you need me to 'bring it'

Shaitaan will have us believe that Ravi Dev isn't the well connected zealot that he is.  Clearly he speaks with Jagdeo's knowledge.

now, nobody is claiming that Shaitaan's "Punjabi farmers arriving by de jahaji boatload" is in Guyana's immediate future, but the mindset and the planning along those lines is there

this kind of thing is already in place on a small scale . . . imagine what these desperadoes can and will do if returned to office

a transcript of the PPP plan for Guyana's land as articulated by Ashni Singh's representative in New Delhi should be made available to every Amerindian in Guyana pronto!

the funny thing about all this is that these PPP crooks don't really care about Indo-Guyanese, they worry about the declining vote bank that keeps them in power

if the Chinese were a sustainable, long-term option, these bums wouldn't give a damn about Punjabi farmers