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Jan 30,2018

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Dear Editor,

Permit my belated response to Mr Ralph Ramkarran’s column, ‘Sustaining and advancing democracy for the New Year’, published in Sunday Stabroek on November 31, 2017, which has been delayed because of circumstances beyond my control.

In his column, Mr Ramkarran made some observations that are consistent with progressive national aspirations. How-ever, his silence on key issues is counterproductive, and deceptive. It is not asking too much from this prominent political personality and former member of the PPP’s leadership, to be more balanced when addressing critical and sensitive areas of Guyana’s political experiences, particularly since he cannot claim to be an innocent bystander. It is therefore very important, that he, being an informed and active player in the political process in Guyana for many years, demonstrates a more objective and responsible attitude in his columns. This imperative is essential if his goal is to achieve national unity and end “ethnic-political domination”.

Mr Ramkarran, speaking from the vantage point of a former PPP/C leader, wrote: “In the critical years of the 1970s and 1980s, three major issues engaged the attention of my political colleagues – restore democracy, advance social progress and avoid civil strife.”

As preoccupied as they were with the above concerns, the PPP leadership and Dr Jagan, squandered the opportunity offered to that party in the late ʼ80s and early ʼ90s with the formation of the PCD and the end of the Cold War, to demonstrate their commitment to those ideals: (Contemporary politics would show that unlike the PPP and Dr Jagan, the APNU and Mr Granger took advantage of a possible alliance with the AFC to strike an electoral coalition in the interest of the country – the rest is history). Instead, the PPP quickly resorted to the historical logic that guided its approach to the nation’s problems after the split in the national movement, which was one of ethnic economic and political domination. It is in this context that while Mr Ramkarran is vocal on the need for constitutional reform to address ethnic political domination, which I support, his pronounced silence on the need to reform the ethnic dominated economy that exists in Guyana becomes problematic and raises questions of his sincerity. His failure to give recognition to the intrinsic link between economics and political domination, which he is well aware of, makes his position suspect and unhelpful. The issue of ethnic economic domination and its negative effects have been in Guyana’s political life since colonial days to the present – the proverbial ‘elephant’ in the room.

Mr Ramkarran skilfully played down the economic contradiction in the country when he wrote: “There will be other issues such as transparency, accountability, corruption, the sugar industry, economy, management of the oil funds, social issues and others.” In this construct the ethnic dominated economy is of little importance to the nation’s political problem of ethnic political domination. He treats the economy as an afterthought, referring to it in passing. He knows that the economy is more important or just as important in determining the social/political relations. If Mr Ramkarran’s approach is a true reflection of where progressive minds in the Indian community are in relation to the nation’s challenges then Guyana will continue to be in deep trouble.

I fought against rigged elections for decades as an ally of the Indian community. As that struggle evolved I identified with and developed an understanding of that community’s political sociology in relation to rigged elections. While the masses could be excused for their inability to rise above past political experiences, Indian political and intellectual leadership after 23 years of PPP/C rule, which also produced electoral rigging, have to face the reality that their party is not devoid of electoral wrongdoings. The leaders of the PPP have to take the responsibility to reshape the Indian community’s “mass consciousness” on this matter. This is necessary if there is to be a meeting of minds between the African and Indian communities on a political solution in the country.

In the present situation if there is justification for the Indian community’s unchanged position on rigged elections that took place in the ʼ70s and ʼ80s then it can be argued that the African community’s fear of Indian domination, given the nature of the PPP’s rule for 23 years, is justified.

African political consciousness at present is influenced in part by the following: 1) the criminalization of the state under the PPP; 2) the domination of the economy by Indians and non-Africans; 3) the massive theft of state resources; (4) the extra-judicial killings of young men, especially young African men, in the so-called “war on crime”. My point is, in the same way that rigged elections under the PNCR, feed/shape the Indian community political consciousness, each of the above does the same to the African community political consciousness and, when taken together, demonstrate the depth of the crisis facing African politics in the years ahead.

After 23 years of PPP/C rule in Guyana, Africans are faced with a situation of being excluded from almost every aspect of economic life in the country. This is undeniable. However, in spite of all of the evidence which supports this position, PPP/C and Indian rights activists, have raised a hue and cry over the small improvements in the African condition since the APNU+AFC government came to power. Their false claim that the government is hostile to Indians and favourable to Africans is nothing but political propaganda, since they know what the reality is. While the African community’s political position has improved with the defeat of the PPP/C, it is yet to be translated into significant economic gains for Africans. The accusation that the government is one sided is not consistent with reality, since the economic structure of the country remains as it was under the PPPC. There has not been any significant change of the fortunes of the African community in the economic life of the country given the extent of its exclusion under the PPP/C, and the short period of the coalition government. This situation will not change dramatically until the coalition recognizes the importance of meaningfully empowering that community by providing it with the skills and resources to move it forward.

To the extent that there is evidence of erosion of Indian economic dominance, it has nothing to do with African economic ascendency, but with (a) the rise of Chinese in commerce and the economic life of the country, which began under the PPP/C; (b) the US pressure on the country in relation to the drug trade, and the proactive, aggressive posture of the coalition in this struggle; (c) the efforts of the government to stamp out the looting of the nation’s resources. None of the above has anything to do with the government advancing African interests but is instead, intended to advance the national interest.

While I remain committed to the struggle for constitutional reform, I am mindful of the fact that at present the PPP/C has no interest in this matter, since it has erroneously convinced itself that it will win the 2020 general and regional elections. Another factor that influences my present attitude on this matter is the fact that the present regime is not a one party government. These considerations factor into my political calculation. As things are, the struggle for constitutional reform in my view will start in earnest after the 2020 elections. It would be a political miracle if any serious movement on this issue occurs before.

My intention in this response to Mr Ramkarran is to point out to the Indian progressive political thinkers that they are doing an injustice to their people and the nation when they allow the PPP/C leadership to continue its crude exploitation of Indian racial insecurity.

The resolution of the race/political contractions in the country requires that the Indian community develops an appreciation of the destruction to the African and Amerindian communities during the 23 years of PPP/C rule. As a nation in our divided state, we will continue to be easy pickings for external exploiters and will, as a result, see our natural resources being plundered by and for the enrichment of others, while we helplessly look on.

This, I believe, is the real challenge facing us if we are to sustain and advance democracy, not only in the New Year but beyond.

Yours faithfully,

Tacuma Ogunseye

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Exploitation of African/Amerindian Communities????  This friggin FOOL is as DUMB as a Donkey ASS. The Afro /Amerindian Communities NEVER had it so good like they did under the PPP. Let this FOOL go analyze the records or ask someone to do so for him. In fact, the PPP went out of their way to develop Afro/Amerindian Communities and neglected the Indian Communities. Ask the Namakaram Crabdaag. And now we all know this was ONE of the reason the PPP lost!!!!!

Nehru

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

Baseman
Django posted:

Jan 30,2018

Source

Dear Editor,

Permit my belated response to Mr Ralph Ramkarran’s column, ‘Sustaining and advancing democracy for the New Year’, published in Sunday Stabroek on November 31, 2017, which has been delayed because of circumstances beyond my control.

 

This, I believe, is the real challenge facing us if we are to sustain and advance democracy, not only in the New Year but beyond.

Yours faithfully,

Tacuma Ogunseye

Ogunsese letter is so riddled with contradictions that it requires no response. Most Indians are poor villagers and farmers. Seems to me the power institutions are still controlled by Blacks, even when the PPP was in power. 

What is this guy's gripe?? Does he see what is happening with the sugar workers...where is the "economic power" that he writes about that the Indians possess??

V
VishMahabir posted:
Django posted:

Jan 30,2018

Source

Dear Editor,

Permit my belated response to Mr Ralph Ramkarran’s column, ‘Sustaining and advancing democracy for the New Year’, published in Sunday Stabroek on November 31, 2017, which has been delayed because of circumstances beyond my control.

 

This, I believe, is the real challenge facing us if we are to sustain and advance democracy, not only in the New Year but beyond.

Yours faithfully,

Tacuma Ogunseye

Ogunsese letter is so riddled with contradictions that it requires no response. Most Indians are poor villagers and farmers. Seems to me the power institutions are still controlled by Blacks, even when the PPP was in power. 

What is this guy's gripe?? Does he see what is happening with the sugar workers...where is the "economic power" that he writes about that the Indians possess??

He is talking like those in blacks in South Africa who are fighting to confiscate lands from White farmers.  Did Indians use their army to drive blacks off their lands in Guyana? 

Billy Ram Balgobin
Last edited by Billy Ram Balgobin
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
VishMahabir posted:
Django posted:

Jan 30,2018

Source

Dear Editor,

Permit my belated response to Mr Ralph Ramkarran’s column, ‘Sustaining and advancing democracy for the New Year’, published in Sunday Stabroek on November 31, 2017, which has been delayed because of circumstances beyond my control.

 

This, I believe, is the real challenge facing us if we are to sustain and advance democracy, not only in the New Year but beyond.

Yours faithfully,

Tacuma Ogunseye

Ogunsese letter is so riddled with contradictions that it requires no response. Most Indians are poor villagers and farmers. Seems to me the power institutions are still controlled by Blacks, even when the PPP was in power. 

What is this guy's gripe?? Does he see what is happening with the sugar workers...where is the "economic power" that he writes about that the Indians possess??

He is talking like those in blacks in South Africa who are fighting to confiscate lands from White farmers.  Did Indians use their army to drive blacks off their lands in Guyana? 

He is a WPA dunce. Always talkin bout some revolution shit. Have nothing useful to contribute. 

FM
Baseman posted:

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

At what point did the PNC attempt to destroy Indian businesses.

Under Burnham it was the PORTUGUESE and NOT the Indians who were the dominant business class.

Under Granger APNU happily engages with the same type of crony capitalism as did the PPP.  Note that behind every corrupt scandal involving the coalition govt is an Indian owned firm.

In fact one can argue is that under the coalition it is the party cronies and NOT the African population at large which is benefitting from their largesse.  These APNU cronies have in fact determined that it is in their own individual interests to play footsie with the business oligarchs, who are disproportionately Indian.

I bet that you cannot name one black owned business which is running away with massive largesse since 2015!

FM
VishMahabir posted:

 

Ogunsese letter is so riddled with contradictions that it requires no response. Most Indians are poor villagers and farmers. Seems to me the power institutions are still controlled by Blacks, even when the PPP was in power. 

 

In fact you are guilty of the same crime.  The fact that certain ethnic elites might wield outsized power doesn't mean that the said ethnic group benefits.

So yes it is wrong to claim that Indians as a whole benefit from dominance of the economy when it is in fact a minute % of the oligarchy, disproportionately Indian, which do. 

And in fact such dominance under Jagdeo became even MORE obvious, and yet the PPP still enjoys almost unchallenged support from the Indian masses, who seem quite proud of this fact. Even as the benefits eluded them, such was their pride in "ahbe pan tap" even as many were forced into semi slavery in neighboring countries in order to feed their families.

It is equally silly to claim that blacks as a whole control political institutions just because a small black political cliquish elite does.  How exactly has the functioning of the GT City Council benefitted small black self employed people? 

And if APNU loses in 2020 how much political dominance will this small black political elite have? 

In fact between 1992 and 2015 socalled black elites were too busy drinking PPP soup as they feared their survival under a regime where an Indian elite BOTH economically AND politically dominated Guyana.

.

FM
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

At what point did the PNC attempt to destroy Indian businesses.

Under Burnham it was the PORTUGUESE and NOT the Indians who were the dominant business class.

 

Whether it was the Indians or Portuguese who controlled the businesses, it was the Kabaka that coopted the economy, 85 % of the economy under the guise of "cooperative socialism" taken after mimicking Tanzania's form of ujamaa socialism. This % is documented by Clive Thomas in a book I read recently. Stop rewriting history. 

V
VishMahabir posted:
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

At what point did the PNC attempt to destroy Indian businesses.

Under Burnham it was the PORTUGUESE and NOT the Indians who were the dominant business class.

 

Whether it was the Indians or Portuguese who controlled the businesses, it was the Kabaka that coopted the economy, 85 % of the economy under the guise of "cooperative socialism" taken after mimicking Tanzania's form of ujamaa socialism. This % is documented by Clive Thomas in a book I read recently. Stop rewriting history. 

And if the PNC controlled 80% or more of the economy, what stopped the Africans from becoming successful under Burnham and Hoyte? The kith and kin had it their way under the dictatorship, what is theuir and YOUR excuse for Africans not taking steps to own and operate their own businesses...they had 28 odd years to do so.... 

V
caribny posted:
VishMahabir posted:

 

Ogunsese letter is so riddled with contradictions that it requires no response. Most Indians are poor villagers and farmers. Seems to me the power institutions are still controlled by Blacks, even when the PPP was in power. 

 

 

And in fact such dominance under Jagdeo became even MORE obvious, and yet the PPP still enjoys almost unchallenged support from the Indian masses, who seem quite proud of this fact. Even as the benefits eluded them, such was their pride in "ahbe pan tap" even as many were forced into semi slavery in neighboring countries in order to feed their families.

1) You right "abe black people pan tap now" and "abe will stay pan tap" . Why is it so obscene that the PPP enjoys support from Indians. Does the PNC not enjoy support from majority Africans.? If this makes Indians racist what does it make Africans?  Your ridiculousness knows no bounds.  Like you forget that the country is divided along racial lines. ?

 It is equally silly to claim that blacks as a whole control political institutions...

2) No sillyness here. The only silly one instigating people is you. Tell us who control the police, army and state institutions. It was Janet Jagan who resigned after she realized that the forces were unwilling to prevent the atrocities being committed against Indians . Indians dont control the economy or any of these institutions. The real power lies in the hands of all dem army people now running the country.

With blind people like you who see race in everything and who make a living condemning every thing the Indos do, is no wonder Guyana is a S***hole. 

Here is a good slogan for you..."All abe Coolie and Black people gon suffer" 

.

 

V
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

At what point did the PNC attempt to destroy Indian businesses.

Under Burnham it was the PORTUGUESE and NOT the Indians who were the dominant business class.

Under Granger APNU happily engages with the same type of crony capitalism as did the PPP.  Note that behind every corrupt scandal involving the coalition govt is an Indian owned firm.

In fact one can argue is that under the coalition it is the party cronies and NOT the African population at large which is benefitting from their largesse.  These APNU cronies have in fact determined that it is in their own individual interests to play footsie with the business oligarchs, who are disproportionately Indian.

I bet that you cannot name one black owned business which is running away with massive largesse since 2015!

Nonsense Caribj.  The PNC tried to starve Indian business out of existence.  Establishment of coops, KSi, etc was an affront to many Indian businesses.  The government controlled what came in and which outlets will get them, and you know who got them.  

Clearly Caribj, you lived in a different Guyana from many of us. 

Baseman
VishMahabir posted:
 

Whether it was the Indians or Portuguese who controlled the businesses, it was the Kabaka that coopted the economy, 85 % of the economy under the guise of "cooperative socialism" taken after mimicking Tanzania's form of ujamaa socialism. This % is documented by Clive Thomas in a book I read recently. Stop rewriting history. 

And do you think that the communist Janet would have let the Portuguese alone had she become deputy PM in 1966? As vindictive and as evil as she was, and as enamored with the USSR and Fidel Castro Banks DIH would have been first on her list to nationalize.

FM
Baseman posted:
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

 

Nonsense Caribj.  The PNC tried to starve Indian business out of existence.  Establishment of coops, KSi, etc was an affront to many Indian businesses.  The government controlled what came in and which outlets will get them, and you know who got them.  

Clearly Caribj, you lived in a different Guyana from many of us. 

In fact some Indians did very well out of smuggling banned items and much of today's Indian oligarchy came out of this.  In fact people used to travel to the Corentyne to acquire banned items. Even Viola Burnham!

Have some decency and say thanks because you know damn well that those KSI outlets were EMPTY!

I also don't recall that those little Regent St businesses were suffering either.  Those were the Indians. 

The large G/T businesses were owned by the Portuguese or were foreign owned, largely by Bookers, Sandbach Parker, Alcan, etc!  I actually lived in G/T. Clearly you didn't!

FM
Last edited by Former Member
VishMahabir posted:
VishMahabir posted:
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

That looks scripted be caribj.   The PNC did Everything in it’s power to supplant Indian businesses with Afro.  They failed.  Don’t come now and point your fingers to the PPP or Indians.  

And if the PNC controlled 80% or more of the economy, what stopped the Africans from becoming successful under Burnham and Hoyte?

It was not the intent for an independent African business  class to emerge under Burnham. It was his intent to reduce blacks to being dependent vassals unable to survive without his largesse.  The SAME factors which destroyed the business class on the whole damaged any prospect of a black business class emerging.

Had blacks been not dependent on him they would have dumped him since 1973.

FM
VishMahabir posted:

 

 

And in fact such dominance under Jagdeo became even MORE obvious, and yet the PPP still enjoys almost unchallenged support from the Indian masses, who seem quite proud of this fact. Even as the benefits eluded them, such was their pride in "ahbe pan tap" even as many were forced into semi slavery in neighboring countries in order to feed their families.

1) You right "abe black people pan tap now" and "abe will stay pan tap" . Why is it so obscene that the PPP enjoys support from Indians. Does the PNC not enjoy support from majority Africans.? If this makes Indians racist what does it make Africans?  Your ridiculousness knows no bounds.  Like you forget that the country is divided along racial lines. ?

 It is equally silly to claim that blacks as a whole control political institutions...

2) No sillyness here. The only silly one instigating people is you. Tell us who control the police, army and state institutions. It was Janet Jagan who resigned after she realized that the forces were unwilling to prevent the atrocities being committed against Indians . Indians dont control the economy or any of these institutions. The real power lies in the hands of all dem army people now running the country.

With blind people like you who see race in everything and who make a living condemning every thing the Indos do, is no wonder Guyana is a S***hole. 

Here is a good slogan for you..."All abe Coolie and Black people gon suffer" 

.

 

Here is what the difference is between us. I am honest about the behavior of the black political elite who do NOT care the slightest about the black masses and in fact play the same corrupt games with the Indian oligarchs as Jagdeo did.

You however sing praises to the PPP and pretend as if racism is only a fact of life when the Indo political elite are put out in the cold.

Jagdeo controlled the army and the police. Do you think that Henry Greene was a PNC plant? Or when Best was playing footsie with Jagdeo that he was a PNC plant? NO. These were all appointed by Jagdeo and served at his behest.  He got rid of these GDF and GPF heads that he didn't trust and put in those who he controlled.  He also under invested in the armed forces to the point where the GDF had almost no equipment.

Had the PNC controlled these entities there would have been a coup!  Instead Corbin had to ho hat in hand to Jagdeo begging him for a raise.

It was pathetic to see Jagdeo screaming at the PNC when forces within it wanted to dump Corbin as they saw him as a Jagdeo stooge.  Why would Jagdeo have been so adamant about who the PNC selected as its leader had he not had Corbin under lock down?

As to these ageing geriatrics. Pathetic old men taking bribes from Indo oligarchs so that they don't starve to death if APNU loses in 2020.  These guys starved during their 23 years in the wilderness and so learned their lesson well.  

Harmon and Jagdeo are way closer in their business dealings with each other than either will want to publicly admit.  Why do you think that the rampant PPP corruption hasn't been exposed?  Please don't embarrass yourself by wailing that the PPP were all saints, all living on their meager paychecks. 

Rumors even have it that Harmon allows some of the PPP crew their cut just as Jagdeo allowed some of the APNU crew in his day.  I know more but will say no more as these folks aren't politicians so can sue for defamation.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
VishMahabir posted:
 

With blind people like you who see race in everything 

.

 

Yes you premise your entire thesis by screaming that blacks ran Guyana even when the PPP was in power and then accuse me of seeing race in everything.

No my role is to counter YOUR ethnocentric attitudes.  You only care when you perceive that Indians are being excluded. When the PPP excluded blacks leaving them to underpaid low level civil service jobs that Indians did NOT want, and in fact scornfully described as "lazy black man wuk" you didn't care.

I bet if the PPP won and our diplomatic corps looked like India you would be screaming that there is no racism in Guyana?

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:
caribny posted:
Baseman posted:

 

Nonsense Caribj.  The PNC tried to starve Indian business out of existence.  Establishment of coops, KSi, etc was an affront to many Indian businesses.  The government controlled what came in and which outlets will get them, and you know who got them.  

Clearly Caribj, you lived in a different Guyana from many of us. 

In fact some Indians did very well out of smuggling banned items and much of today's Indian oligarchy came out of this.  In fact people used to travel to the Corentyne to acquire banned items. Even Viola Burnham!

Is funny how yuh judge success, Indian business people reverting to illegal desperation to survive.  Caribj, your head is in a totally different zone than mine with regards to success and sustenance! It’s not even worth trying to engage.  

You are a racist and will meander what ever path to prove your pathetic point of view! 

Baseman

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