Radical Islamic IDEOLOGY

Islamic........because the religion is Islam......ISIL and A Qaeda groups call themselves Islamic......All Muslims call themselves Islamic

 

Ideology......because it is not religion......ISIL Ideologues because they hold on to an idea......Muslims - religious not ideologues.

 

Fareek Zakaria had an interesting take on the use/non-use of RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM, and the Republicans' empty ideas on defeating ISIL.

 

Here it is :

 

Saying ‘radical Islam’ has nothing to do with defeating terrorism

By Fareed Zakaria

December 17

 

“Radical Islamic terrorism.” Apparently, the phrase — if you can actually say it — has mystical powers. At Tuesday’s Republican debate, the candidates once more took pains to point out that they would speak the dreaded words that President Obama and Hillary Clinton dare not. “We have a president who is unwilling to utter its name,” Ted Cruz said in his opening statement.As it turns out, the first time I described the enemy as “radical Islam” was in a column I wrote days after 9/11. I used the phrase “radical Islamic terrorism” in another column later that month. So, having established my credentials, I can honestly say that it gives absolutely nothing in the way of an answer or strategy to deal with terrorist attacks.

Fareed Zakaria writes a foreign affairs column for The Post. He is also the host of CNN’s Fareed Zakaria GPS and a contributing editor for The Atlantic.

 

It’s not just Republicans who have decided that Obama’s and Clinton’s unwillingness to use this phrase is a sign of weakness and strategic incoherence. There is a cottage industry of writers who boast that they are brave enough to name the enemy.

In fact, Obama has often spoken about the problems of extremism in Islam. His speech last year to the U.N. General Assembly focused significantly on that topic: “Today, it is violence within Muslim communities that has become the source of so much human misery. . . . It is time for the world — especially Muslim communities — to explicitly, forcefully, and consistently reject the ideology of organizations like al-Qaeda and ISIL [the Islamic State].”

 

In his speech after the San Bernardino, Calif., shootings, Obama again made some of these points, leading late-night comic Seth Meyers to quip: “So he used the words ‘radical,’ ‘Islam,’ and ‘terrorism,’ he just didn’t use them in the right order. Which would be a problem if it was a spell and he was Harry Potter, but he’s not, so it isn’t.”

 

During a speech in Washington, presidential contender Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tx.) took on critics in his own party and defended Middle East dictators as useful allies against Islamic extremists on Thursday, Dec. 10. (AP)

 

Obama and Clinton have chosen not to describe the enemy as “radical Islam” out of deference to the many Muslim countries and leaders who feel it gives the terrorists legitimacy. President George W. Bush was similarly careful in his rhetoric. For this reason, throughout the Middle East, the Islamic State is called Daesh , an acronym with derogatory connotations.

 

Conservatives have discovered a newfound love for France after its president declared war following the Paris attacks. They might not have realized that FranÇois Hollande purposely declared war not on the Islamic State but on Daesh. His foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, explained: “I do not recommend using the term Islamic State because it blurs the lines between Islam, Muslims and Islamists. The Arabs call it ‘Daesh,’ and I will be calling them the ‘Daesh cutthroats.’ ”

 

The best proof that calling radical Islam by its name provides no solutions is that the Republican candidates had none at Tuesday’s debate. After all the huffing and puffing, the most aggressive among them proposed more bombing, no-fly zones and arming the Kurds.

These are modest additions to Obama’s current strategy, each with its own problems. More bombing has proved hard because there are many innocent civilians in Islamic State strongholds. Administration sources tell me that a no-fly zone would require at least 200 U.S. aircraft and would do little to stop the violence, which is mostly conducted on land, with some via helicopters). Arming the Kurds directly would enrage the Iraqi and Turkish governments, as well as many of the Sunni tribes that would have to eventually occupy the lands that are liberated. These are judgment calls, not no-brainers.

 

Most important, however, fighting this terrorist group is not the same as fighting radical Islam. Strangely, after the GOP candidates boldly and correctly described the enemy as an ideology — which is much broader than one group — they spoke almost entirely about fighting that one group. Even if the Islamic State were defeated tomorrow, would that stop the next lone-wolf jihadist in New York or Paris or London? The San Bernardino killers appear to have been radicalized when the terrorist group barely existed.

 

In fact, the enemy is radical Islam, an ideology that has spread over the past four decades — for a variety of reasons — and now infects alienated young men and women across the Muslim world. The fight against it must at its core be against the ideology itself. And that can be done only by Muslims — they alone can purge their faith of this extremism. After a slow start, several important efforts are underway, perhaps more than people realize. The West can help by encouraging these forces of reform, allying with them and partnering in efforts to modernize their societies. But that is much less satisfying than hurling invectives, calling for bans on Muslims and advocating carpet-bombing.

 

Original Post

The head of the snake, House of Saud is where the problem lies.  The US/West will eventually need to take out house of Saud and re-educated the masses.  They need to be thought Christan values, sent to proper school and lean the ways of progress and modernity.  Until ten, we have the shyte to deal with.

Kari posted:

Islamic........because the religion is Islam......ISIL and A Qaeda groups call themselves Islamic......All Muslims call themselves Islamic

......In fact, the enemy is radical Islam, an ideology that has spread over the past four decades — for a variety of reasons — and now infects alienated young men and women across the Muslim world. The fight against it must at its core be against the ideology itself. And that can be done only by Muslims — they alone can purge their faith of this extremism. After a slow start, several important efforts are underway, perhaps more than people realize. The West can help by encouraging these forces of reform, allying with them and partnering in efforts to modernize their societies. But that is much less satisfying than hurling invectives, calling for bans on Muslims and advocating carpet-bombing.

 

Kari, how many times have I  written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, (the learned interpreters of the faith) has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

The fact is someone has to stand up and say many of the medieval tenets of the faith has to go as Christians have already done. They do not stone women for adultery etc per Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Christians also do not sanitize their world of others of different faiths. Muslims have to make that stand and not bullshit about the perfect immutable laws when interpreted to be anti modern and anti human.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lasers to take them out individually and surgically. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the Russians are already doing.

Faareed Zakaria should be banished from the USA, This fool is missing an important point. He claims 45 Americans were killed by Muslim Terrorist in comparison to 150,000 killed by guns in the USA by Americans.

If these muslim killings were not important for the American government, then why are they over in the ME bombing the place.

I hope Trump wins and puts his azz on a plane back to India. Bloody idiot, feels pious enough about his muslim superiority that he would insult white people mentality. 

Stormborn posted:

Kari, how many times have i written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, the learned interpreters of the faith has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lazers to take them out individually. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the russians are already doing.

stormborn, your last 3 paragraphs leave me scratching my head

"carpet bomb" . . . "tactical nukes"?

these are your real-world, American solutions? . . .  smh

at it's core, this is NOT a battle for Western survival . . . you are falling into the ISIS trap

it is simply a hegemonic (death?) struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam framed by the post-Sykes/Picot realities being played out in the Levant

we in the West have all kinds of lethal and extraordinarily effective options available to crush and inoculate ourselves from this disease short of the apocalypse u recommend and the desert psychopaths would welcome . . . it just takes patience and intelligence

pay attention to the tactical posture of the powers in the immediate neighborhood . . . it is instructive

sorry, this is far from existential

redux posted:
Stormborn posted:

Kari, how many times have i written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, the learned interpreters of the faith has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lazers to take them out individually. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the russians are already doing.

stormborn, your last 3 paragraphs leave me scratching my head

"carpet bomb" . . . "tactical nukes"?

these are your real-world, American solutions? . . .  smh

at it's core, this is NOT a battle for Western survival . . . you are falling into the ISIS trap

it is simply a hegemonic (death?) struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam framed by the post-Sykes/Picot realities being played out in the Levant

we in the West have all kinds of lethal and extraordinarily effective options available to crush and inoculate ourselves from this disease short of the apocalypse u recommend and the desert psychopaths would welcome . . . it just takes patience and intelligence

pay attention to the tactical posture of the powers in the immediate neighborhood . . . it is instructive

sorry, this is far from existential

Dont give a shit about them any more. Any means to erase them is good from where I stand. People who can behead women and children are no longer people. Anything to erase them.... napalm, white phosphor..cluster bombs...take out every life sustaining infrastructure....I just do not care.

If Pakistan and Egypt becomes infected that is another 140 million of people enslaved. If they get their hands on those bombs it is our ass. They already used chemical weapons. Muslim nations are not going to go after them. Saudis bootstrapped them, Turkey buys their oil. or turns a blind eye to the trade.etc

Qatar is spending 122 billion on the world cup and poor Jordan is up to its neck in refugees with no help. Someone has to stop these people. Raqqa has to be leveled of all ISIS structures and the same with Mosul. Anywhere there is a black flag...take it out. One has to act like Genghis Khan with these folks. There is no room for negotiations.

 

Stormborn posted:
.

The fact is someone has to stand up and say many of the medieval tenets of the faith has to go as Christians have already done. They do not stone women for adultery etc per Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Christians also do not sanitize their world of others of different faiths. Muslims have to make that stand and not bullshit about the perfect immutable laws when interpreted to be anti modern and anti human.

 

This is what Kari refuses to deal with. In fact Muslims suffer a double whammy from radicalized Islamists. Not only does the behavior of radicalized Islamists not only give cover to bigots like Trump and Maher to peddle their poison, but Muslims are also the biggest victims of these attacks. Several of those killed Paris were Muslims.

And this is especially true in the Middle East, and in Africa. where whole segments of the community are being wiped off because they represent the more intellectual traditions of Islam, while the jihadists want to remain primitive tribal nomads.

Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge that is so problematic to the vast majority of Muslims.  Why are the mentally unbalanced so attracted to kill in the name of this religion?  That is a question that needs answers.

Caribny is pointing us all to a solution - eradicate the religion of Islam. Ask the 1.6 billion Muslims to convert to some other religion or atheism and burn all the Quran in the world and jail time for anyone who utters the word Islam or partake in the religion (ooops.....not a religion in that new regime). that is the solution he's looking for - like asking all Blacks to shed their black-ness. Or maybe he wants all the Muslims to pool their resources, but a nuke (it's possible, maybe...in caribny's world) and blow up Raqqa. Then round uip all the Muslims from the Middle East living in Europe and North america and intern them for life. Oh, those bastard Muslims of this world who wreak this terrorist insanity on this world of caribnys......and seigheil....and basement dweller.....oh, how they would love Muslims to come up with a solution to eradicate radical Islamic terrorism - yes this is a superior phrase that means Islam will be stricken from history - that would involver each of us killing each other. That's the only solution - caribny's final solution - like Hitler's. The kackass does not know Muslims' hatred for ISIL and Al Qaeda is a thousand time greater than his or SiegHeil or basement caveman. Tell us broddaman -what is the solution? Self-emolument?  Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge - say the words and I will repeat them so you'll be happy. Do you want me to say all Indians are racists too?  What would satisfy you? What other yearnings of yours remain? I've heard Muslims mus tsay radical Islamic terrorists. Kill all Muslims.....what else genius? State what we must do oh brilliant mind of the human condition! For once categorically state "Kari...do this ....and do that...." I await your sage.

Kari posted:

Caribny is pointing us all to a solution - eradicate the religion of Islam. Ask the 1.6 billion Muslims to convert to some other religion or atheism and burn all the Quran in the world and jail time for anyone who utters the word Islam or partake in the religion (ooops.....not a religion in that new regime). that is the solution he's looking for - like asking all Blacks to shed their black-ness. Or maybe he wants all the Muslims to pool their resources, but a nuke (it's possible, maybe...in caribny's world) and blow up Raqqa. Then round uip all the Muslims from the Middle East living in Europe and North america and intern them for life. Oh, those bastard Muslims of this world who wreak this terrorist insanity on this world of caribnys......and seigheil....and basement dweller.....oh, how they would love Muslims to come up with a solution to eradicate radical Islamic terrorism - yes this is a superior phrase that means Islam will be stricken from history - that would involver each of us killing each other. That's the only solution - caribny's final solution - like Hitler's. The kackass does not know Muslims' hatred for ISIL and Al Qaeda is a thousand time greater than his or SiegHeil or basement caveman. Tell us broddaman -what is the solution? Self-emolument?  Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge - say the words and I will repeat them so you'll be happy. Do you want me to say all Indians are racists too?  What would satisfy you? What other yearnings of yours remain? I've heard Muslims mus tsay radical Islamic terrorists. Kill all Muslims.....what else genius? State what we must do oh brilliant mind of the human condition! For once categorically state "Kari...do this ....and do that...." I await your sage.

I do not see Caribj considering massive conversion of anyone. Muslims have a right to their faith as do all others. The point I make is that while there is vocal messaging from Muslims in some quarters against this evil it is not enough. Muslims need to be in the street in peaceful marches at the desecration of their faith in similar manner and fevor ( minus the violence) as when they thought someone defamed the Prophet with cartoons. We do not see that against ISIS and that is the point. 

 

You are hyperventilating on imagined ills and not taking the real sickness into consideration. Muslim nations need to do more for their people. They need to help the refugees. They need to fight for the integrity of Islam by massing troops against those desecrating it and committing horrible violence in their name.

 

Also, they will have to agree to redraw the map of the region. Syria will not be reconstituted in the same way and Iraq should no longer suffer the indignity of a central ethnic conscious president but be split up into confederacies or federations.  Libya may not be able to be put together as it was but into two factions as well. Both military and political solutions are needed.

 

Kari posted:

Caribny is pointing us all to a solution - eradicate the religion of Islam. Ask the 1.6 billion Muslims to convert to some other religion or atheism and burn all the Quran in the world and jail time for anyone who utters the word Islam or partake in the religion (ooops.....not a religion in that new regime). that is the solution he's looking for - like asking all Blacks to shed their black-ness. Or maybe he wants all the Muslims to pool their resources, but a nuke (it's possible, maybe...in caribny's world) and blow up Raqqa. Then round uip all the Muslims from the Middle East living in Europe and North america and intern them for life. Oh, those bastard Muslims of this world who wreak this terrorist insanity on this world of caribnys......and seigheil....and basement dweller.....oh, how they would love Muslims to come up with a solution to eradicate radical Islamic terrorism - yes this is a superior phrase that means Islam will be stricken from history - that would involver each of us killing each other. That's the only solution - caribny's final solution - like Hitler's. The kackass does not know Muslims' hatred for ISIL and Al Qaeda is a thousand time greater than his or SiegHeil or basement caveman. Tell us broddaman -what is the solution? Self-emolument?  Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge - say the words and I will repeat them so you'll be happy. Do you want me to say all Indians are racists too?  What would satisfy you? What other yearnings of yours remain? I've heard Muslims mus tsay radical Islamic terrorists. Kill all Muslims.....what else genius? State what we must do oh brilliant mind of the human condition! For once categorically state "Kari...do this ....and do that...." I await your sage.

As ISIS is claiming, they are fulfilling end time prophecies. Then it would be the non-muslims who will have to suffer for their faith in Jesus Christ. By death or conversion. India is a good example of what may come.

The way I see it, there is a certain self pride in Islamic values. It is what is promoted as better than anything that is current. I cannot see Muslims amassing in large numbers to combat the evils that persists in Islam. They are the quiet participators of dominance. And they will be victorious. How else would the ancient words be a reality from which region of the world other than the mother of all false religions as stated in the Bible.

If America is the champion of freedom of speech, then Islam would flourish. Its Presidents are fools. Then again how else would the Righteous be persecuted by the Unrighteous. 

cain posted:

Kari, haul yo ass.

Cainsta....the people who're most affected by all this are Muslims - both by being killed in far greater numbers and in assaults by non-Muslims and atheists (physical as well as psychological). Muslims are under attack by both ISIL/Al Qaeda and Westerners. It's only Asians, Africans and Latinos in the southern hemisphere and Russians who are not in this feeding frenzy that you see reflected on GNI copycats. Donald Trump would be proud of what he sees here.

Kari posted:
cain posted:

Kari, haul yo ass.

Cainsta....the people who're most affected by all this are Muslims - both by being killed in far greater numbers and in assaults by non-Muslims and atheists (physical as well as psychological). Muslims are under attack by both ISIL/Al Qaeda and Westerners. It's only Asians, Africans and Latinos in the southern hemisphere and Russians who are not in this feeding frenzy that you see reflected on GNI copycats. Donald Trump would be proud of what he sees here.

The entire world is disrupted with these netherworld denizens. If the Islamic world cared to address this swiftly they can. The Saudis And Qataris facilitated the  emergence of ISIS.   They can help with the bleeding as recompense to the world.

Atheists and non Muslims have no hand in this except in the reluctance of western powers to intervene and erase these creatures. Too often they get blamed for it all as you so easily do without any  sense of responsibility  to the faith by speaking to the failures of its scholars to establish hard authoritative rules against the crucifixion of non Muslims and beheading of women and children. Has there ever been a fatwah against human bombs...especially the use of women and children?

Russia is deep to its knees in this. It is afraid of its border states falling and it becoming once again embroiled in a war with Muslims internally. Russians are also seeking a global voice and they are being opportunistic here. 

Trump is indeed a bigot also capitalizing  for political coin on what is a latent understanding that Muslims have a problem wrought of their own neglect on their hands. We in the west have a right to be worried about the rise of "Islamists" as we are about any bestial group intend on bombing our public spaces and it is not against Muslims because they are Muslims as you frame it. It is about self preservation in light of the community failure to reach out and bond with others needing to fight this evil. It is a terrible shame that the few who actively fight are marginalized by the acquiescence and failure to act by the larger community

It is the  usual prideful neglect to sanction their own and habit to overlook  willful abuse of non Muslims. Where among Muslims have there been an outcry against their abuse of Indians and other Asians in the gulf states or the Coptic Christians in Egypt? Where has there been a concerted attempt in the Ulema to stop the anonymizing of women. It has no scriptural imperative. Muslims have a responsibility for their present predicament as well.

Where have they sought to establish firm interpretations in the law as a community and vocally demonstrate their outrage against transgressions. Instead we see how quickly there are issues of  fatwas against cartoonists and impromptu rage in the streets against and tacit condoning of murder as those of Theo Van Gough for an innocuous film.  Then there are the outrages and riots as tales of Koran burning  spread including the stoning of a  young Muslim women for supposed religious infractions against the book! These are misplaced outrages when real glaring ones exists!

The Religion is in dire need or rehabilitation. I cannot accept it on par with any other religion in its present state of anarchy and inconsistency in interpretations which often predicate violence on others. Muslims themselves should be shamed into action to correct this view.

Stormborn posted:
redux posted:
Stormborn posted:

Kari, how many times have i written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, the learned interpreters of the faith has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lazers to take them out individually. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the russians are already doing.

stormborn, your last 3 paragraphs leave me scratching my head

"carpet bomb" . . . "tactical nukes"?

these are your real-world, American solutions? . . .  smh

at it's core, this is NOT a battle for Western survival . . . you are falling into the ISIS trap

it is simply a hegemonic (death?) struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam framed by the post-Sykes/Picot realities being played out in the Levant

we in the West have all kinds of lethal and extraordinarily effective options available to crush and inoculate ourselves from this disease short of the apocalypse u recommend and the desert psychopaths would welcome . . . it just takes patience and intelligence

pay attention to the tactical posture of the powers in the immediate neighborhood . . . it is instructive

sorry, this is far from existential

Dont give a shit about them any more. Any means to erase them is good from where I stand. People who can behead women and children are no longer people. Anything to erase them.... napalm, white phosphor..cluster bombs...take out every life sustaining infrastructure....I just do not care.

If Pakistan and Egypt becomes infected that is another 140 million of people enslaved. If they get their hands on those bombs it is our ass. They already used chemical weapons. Muslim nations are not going to go after them. Saudis bootstrapped them, Turkey buys their oil. or turns a blind eye to the trade.etc

Qatar is spending 122 billion on the world cup and poor Jordan is up to its neck in refugees with no help. Someone has to stop these people. Raqqa has to be leveled of all ISIS structures and the same with Mosul. Anywhere there is a black flag...take it out. One has to act like Genghis Khan with these folks. There is no room for negotiations.

stormborn, i will have a fuller response to the 'strategic' elements of your post later

however, i cannot allow you to misrepresent where i stand on such an important national security issue in furtherance of your polemic

(i) this is not about you [or me] "giving a shit about [ISIS]" as you very well know . . . if you feel that using weapons of mass destruction on the populations of Ramadi, Raqqa and Mosul (the 2nd largest city in Iraq) is called for to wipe out embedded ISIS militants, then say so clearly and i will properly pour ridicule on such madness

and (ii) where do you get off implying that i support the silly and dangerous idea of "negotiations" with Baghdadi & Co. you are having such a great time tilting at?

The Koran can never be revised. That would subject the contents as the absolute truths. The people who promote this religion are the people of the ME. The others are followers of their interpretations.

The other day I saw a video of a few muslims who want to reclaim their religion. I did not see any immans or Middle-Easterners in the group. Most Indo looking people.

No one wants to convert muslims or want to prove their beliefs are medieval. They put themselves into the frame. And beligerent about it.  

redux posted:
Stormborn posted:
redux posted:
Stormborn posted:

Kari, how many times have i written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, the learned interpreters of the faith has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lazers to take them out individually. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the russians are already doing.

stormborn, your last 3 paragraphs leave me scratching my head

"carpet bomb" . . . "tactical nukes"?

these are your real-world, American solutions? . . .  smh

at it's core, this is NOT a battle for Western survival . . . you are falling into the ISIS trap

it is simply a hegemonic (death?) struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam framed by the post-Sykes/Picot realities being played out in the Levant

we in the West have all kinds of lethal and extraordinarily effective options available to crush and inoculate ourselves from this disease short of the apocalypse u recommend and the desert psychopaths would welcome . . . it just takes patience and intelligence

pay attention to the tactical posture of the powers in the immediate neighborhood . . . it is instructive

sorry, this is far from existential

Dont give a shit about them any more. Any means to erase them is good from where I stand. People who can behead women and children are no longer people. Anything to erase them.... napalm, white phosphor..cluster bombs...take out every life sustaining infrastructure....I just do not care.

If Pakistan and Egypt becomes infected that is another 140 million of people enslaved. If they get their hands on those bombs it is our ass. They already used chemical weapons. Muslim nations are not going to go after them. Saudis bootstrapped them, Turkey buys their oil. or turns a blind eye to the trade.etc

Qatar is spending 122 billion on the world cup and poor Jordan is up to its neck in refugees with no help. Someone has to stop these people. Raqqa has to be leveled of all ISIS structures and the same with Mosul. Anywhere there is a black flag...take it out. One has to act like Genghis Khan with these folks. There is no room for negotiations.

stormborn, i will have a fuller response to the 'strategic' elements of your post later

however, i cannot allow you to misrepresent where i stand on such an important national security issue in furtherance of your polemic

(i) this is not about you [or me] "giving a shit about [ISIS]" as you very well know . . . if you feel that using weapons of mass destruction on the populations of Ramadi, Raqqa and Mosul (the 2nd largest city in Iraq) is called for to wipe out embedded ISIS militants, then say so clearly and i will properly pour ridicule on such madness

and (ii) where do you get off implying that i support the silly and dangerous idea of "negotiations" with Baghdadi & Co. you are having such a great time tilting at?

I know Raqqa has some 500k civilians. I also know Mosul is hostage.I never said attack these places with weapons of mass destruction. I said take out ISIS structures.

One  can carpet those 300 car convoys. We have refrained from bombing oil infrastructure and wells. These should not be off the list since on retreat they do set the well heads on fire. Everyone of the five dams under their control should be retaken since the already threaten to bomb them. As stated planely...they must be erased, physically from the planet.

I would flatten every fuel, food, and water resource. Ground troops has to be used to take and hold space and stop the emptying out of these places.

Sinjar for example should be abuzz with construction cranes and equipment making permanent secure homes for people to return. It is a matter of taking back land and holding it, making decent homes with infrastructure to make life worth living. These zones should be completely secure by ensuring no arms get in and every resident registered.

Something has to be done to stop this death cult from holding keeping and maintaining a presence in the region.

I have not mentioned baghdadi in any of my posts to date much less associating you with him or ISIS for that matter. That is your own imagination.

seignet posted:

The Koran can never be revised. That would subject the contents as the absolute truths. The people who promote this religion are the people of the ME. The others are followers of their interpretations.

The other day I saw a video of a few muslims who want to reclaim their religion. I did not see any immans or Middle-Easterners in the group. Most Indo looking people.

No one wants to convert muslims or want to prove their beliefs are medieval. They put themselves into the frame. And beligerent about it.  

I said revised the relevance for us for certain passages as Christians have done with odious phrases in the bible. We do not condone slavery, stoning for adultery,  sex with under aged children, genocide etc. These are barbaric from where we stand. These are in the bible and treated as incidental to god's directive.

The idea of defending passages as not meaning as stated or taking phrasing and implying other context than is clear are all silly excuses for harmonizing antiquated behavior with modern outlook to life.  We must come to accept religious plurality. Christianity does not accept it but Christians live in secular political spaces. The horrible killings all through the christian era to only the middle of the last century were all circumscribed with creating hierarchic societies with some humans being deemed better than others. Those beliefs were injurious to life. They are all biblical but they are not part of normative social experience in the world today.

 

caribny posted:
Stormborn posted:
.

The fact is someone has to stand up and say many of the medieval tenets of the faith has to go as Christians have already done. They do not stone women for adultery etc per Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Christians also do not sanitize their world of others of different faiths. Muslims have to make that stand and not bullshit about the perfect immutable laws when interpreted to be anti modern and anti human.

 

This is what Kari refuses to deal with. In fact Muslims suffer a double whammy from radicalized Islamists. Not only does the behavior of radicalized Islamists not only give cover to bigots like Trump and Maher to peddle their poison, but Muslims are also the biggest victims of these attacks. Several of those killed Paris were Muslims.

And this is especially true in the Middle East, and in Africa. where whole segments of the community are being wiped off because they represent the more intellectual traditions of Islam, while the jihadists want to remain primitive tribal nomads.

Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge that is so problematic to the vast majority of Muslims.  Why are the mentally unbalanced so attracted to kill in the name of this religion?  That is a question that needs answers.

I would like Kari to describe exactly where I demand the extermination of the Muslim religion.

Indeed the people who have the greatest need to snuff out jihadi madness are Muslims because they suffer MOST.

1. The actions of these lunatics gives people ike Trump and Bill Maher ro engage in their bigotry.  You will note that Maher is liberal/left wing, so is hardly of the clothe that is usually connected to bigotry.

2. Muslims have suffered more deaths and disruptions by jihadi lunacy then any other group.  Not only this, but the jihadi lunatics are determined to eradicate any evidence that Muslims were once a fount of knowledge, in the sciences, governance, and in literature.

Kari quit being hysterical and understand that Muslims have an image problem, and ONLY Muslims can fix this!

seignet posted:
Kari posted:

Caribny is pointing us all to a solution - eradicate the religion of Islam. Ask the 1.6 billion Muslims to convert to some other religion or atheism and burn all the Quran in the world and jail time for anyone who utters the word Islam or partake in the religion (ooops.....not a religion in that new regime). that is the solution he's looking for - like asking all Blacks to shed their black-ness. Or maybe he wants all the Muslims to pool their resources, but a nuke (it's possible, maybe...in caribny's world) and blow up Raqqa. Then round uip all the Muslims from the Middle East living in Europe and North america and intern them for life. Oh, those bastard Muslims of this world who wreak this terrorist insanity on this world of caribnys......and seigheil....and basement dweller.....oh, how they would love Muslims to come up with a solution to eradicate radical Islamic terrorism - yes this is a superior phrase that means Islam will be stricken from history - that would involver each of us killing each other. That's the only solution - caribny's final solution - like Hitler's. The kackass does not know Muslims' hatred for ISIL and Al Qaeda is a thousand time greater than his or SiegHeil or basement caveman. Tell us broddaman -what is the solution? Self-emolument?  Kari should be directing discussion towards how Muslims can eliminate this scourge - say the words and I will repeat them so you'll be happy. Do you want me to say all Indians are racists too?  What would satisfy you? What other yearnings of yours remain? I've heard Muslims mus tsay radical Islamic terrorists. Kill all Muslims.....what else genius? State what we must do oh brilliant mind of the human condition! For once categorically state "Kari...do this ....and do that...." I await your sage.

As ISIS is claiming, they are fulfilling end time prophecies. Then it would be the non-muslims who will have to suffer for their faith in Jesus Christ. By death or conversion. India is a good example of what may come.

The way I see it, there is a certain self pride in Islamic values. It is what is promoted as better than anything that is current. I cannot see Muslims amassing in large numbers to combat the evils that persists in Islam. They are the quiet participators of dominance. And they will be victorious. How else would the ancient words be a reality from which region of the world other than the mother of all false religions as stated in the Bible.

If America is the champion of freedom of speech, then Islam would flourish. Its Presidents are fools. Then again how else would the Righteous be persecuted by the Unrighteous. 

Let me make this real short, never trust an Islamist!!

Stormborn posted:
. Where among Muslims have there been an outcry against their abuse of Indians and other Asians in the gulf states or the Coptic Christians in Egypt? Where has there been a concerted attempt in the Ulema to stop the anonymizing of women. It has no scriptural imperative. Muslims have a responsibility for their present predicament as well.

 

In fact Somalis and other African Muslims have noted, with shame, that they get help from white and black Christians, while non African Muslims ignore their plight.

Luck at poor Kenya, which has sheltered many African Muslims, only now to have become exposed to Islamist violence.

Kari can enlighten us about what non African Muslims have done to help.

Stormborn posted:
redux posted:
Stormborn posted:
redux posted:
Stormborn posted:

Kari, how many times have i written to you and others here that the faith, the ulema, the learned interpreters of the faith has to define it for adherents and establish the boundaries of its propriety? How many times have I been ridiculed as a heathen attacking a perfect religion with perfect language, with perfect meaning accessible to all and therefore never suspect to false messaging.

But while Muslims get their house in order we have to stand on the wall. That is fair is it not? Brutish expressions or reversed humanity cannot be allowed to overwhelm us as it has Syria, Libya and Iraq. If might means carpet bombing the lot as some GOP folks suggest because survival is imperative and those people have become like zombies whose disease can be transmitted electronically.

As long as they hold ground, is seen as a "force", they will continue to infect our young. I do not even give a damn these days if tactical nukes are used. Extreme times demand extreme measures and we cannot have Muslim lands emptying out with all path leading west.

These people have to be stopped by any means necessary. We do not have space platforms with powerful lazers to take them out individually. We might have to carpet bombing their behinds like the russians are already doing.

stormborn, your last 3 paragraphs leave me scratching my head

"carpet bomb" . . . "tactical nukes"?

these are your real-world, American solutions? . . .  smh

at it's core, this is NOT a battle for Western survival . . . you are falling into the ISIS trap

it is simply a hegemonic (death?) struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam framed by the post-Sykes/Picot realities being played out in the Levant

we in the West have all kinds of lethal and extraordinarily effective options available to crush and inoculate ourselves from this disease short of the apocalypse u recommend and the desert psychopaths would welcome . . . it just takes patience and intelligence

pay attention to the tactical posture of the powers in the immediate neighborhood . . . it is instructive

sorry, this is far from existential

Dont give a shit about them any more. Any means to erase them is good from where I stand. People who can behead women and children are no longer people. Anything to erase them.... napalm, white phosphor..cluster bombs...take out every life sustaining infrastructure....I just do not care.

If Pakistan and Egypt becomes infected that is another 140 million of people enslaved. If they get their hands on those bombs it is our ass. They already used chemical weapons. Muslim nations are not going to go after them. Saudis bootstrapped them, Turkey buys their oil. or turns a blind eye to the trade.etc

Qatar is spending 122 billion on the world cup and poor Jordan is up to its neck in refugees with no help. Someone has to stop these people. Raqqa has to be leveled of all ISIS structures and the same with Mosul. Anywhere there is a black flag...take it out. One has to act like Genghis Khan with these folks. There is no room for negotiations.

stormborn, i will have a fuller response to the 'strategic' elements of your post later

however, i cannot allow you to misrepresent where i stand on such an important national security issue in furtherance of your polemic

(i) this is not about you [or me] "giving a shit about [ISIS]" as you very well know . . . if you feel that using weapons of mass destruction on the populations of Ramadi, Raqqa and Mosul (the 2nd largest city in Iraq) is called for to wipe out embedded ISIS militants, then say so clearly and i will properly pour ridicule on such madness

and (ii) where do you get off implying that i support the silly and dangerous idea of "negotiations" with Baghdadi & Co. you are having such a great time tilting at?

I know Raqqa has some 500k civilians. I also know Mosul is hostage.I never said attack these places with weapons of mass destruction. I said take out ISIS structures.

One  can carpet those 300 car convoys. We have refrained from bombing oil infrastructure and wells. These should not be off the list since on retreat they do set the well heads on fire. Everyone of the five dams under their control should be retaken since the already threaten to bomb them. As stated planely...they must be erased, physically from the planet.

I would flatten every fuel, food, and water resource. Ground troops has to be used to take and hold space and stop the emptying out of these places.

Sinjar for example should be abuzz with construction cranes and equipment making permanent secure homes for people to return. It is a matter of taking back land and holding it, making decent homes with infrastructure to make life worth living. These zones should be completely secure by ensuring no arms get in and every resident registered.

Something has to be done to stop this death cult from holding keeping and maintaining a presence in the region.

I have not mentioned baghdadi in any of my posts to date much less associating you with him or ISIS for that matter. That is your own imagination.

Listen Storm, we [US/UK] bombed the sh1t out of Dresden to get the Nazis to capitulate, we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to get the Japs to capitulate.  From a civilian standpoint, Raqqa is minor compared.  So bomb the crap out of it and the people will kick out ISIS and never let them in again.  The Sunnis of Raqqa, Mosul, Ramadi are key success factors for ISIS.

caribny posted:
Stormborn posted:
. Where among Muslims have there been an outcry against their abuse of Indians and other Asians in the gulf states or the Coptic Christians in Egypt? Where has there been a concerted attempt in the Ulema to stop the anonymizing of women. It has no scriptural imperative. Muslims have a responsibility for their present predicament as well.

 

In fact Somalis and other African Muslims have noted, with shame, that they get help from white and black Christians, while non African Muslims ignore their plight.

Luck at poor Kenya, which has sheltered many African Muslims, only now to have become exposed to Islamist violence.

Kari can enlighten us about what non African Muslims have done to help.

The Islamists in Iraq/Afgan take much more pride in killing Black marines than White.  Those fair-skinned Muslims [like Kari] don't give a damn about Black Muslims.  Just strap a suicide belt on, then they worth something.

baseman posted:

. . . we [US/UK] bombed the sh1t out of Dresden to get the Nazis to capitulate, we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to get the Japs to capitulate.  From a civilian standpoint, Raqqa is minor compared.  So bomb the crap out of it and the people will kick out ISIS and never let them in again.

quite the 6th Grade take on history, eh baseman

much stupid abroad on GNI of late . . . coward antiman like u front and center with the ignorance

no?

redux posted:
baseman posted:

. . . we [US/UK] bombed the sh1t out of Dresden to get the Nazis to capitulate, we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to get the Japs to capitulate.  From a civilian standpoint, Raqqa is minor compared.  So bomb the crap out of it and the people will kick out ISIS and never let them in again.

quite the 6th Grade take on history, eh baseman

much stupid abroad on GNI of late . . . coward antiman like u front and center with the ignorance

no?

Really pigmy, tell us what you know that military historians don't nah!  You pretend to know and seem to have all the time in the world to Google and research every posting for any inconsistency.  No one else have that much time waste.  So tell abie, which history book seh that mass civilian casualty was not a calculated outcome!

Now pigmy, do a lil re-read to refresh you semi-senile brain.

http://www.history.com/topics/...ii/battle-of-dresden

If it is signs of the times, then ISIS will prevail and the West will feel the wrought of its armies within.  The year of 2015, will go down in history as the year when the Islamist began their fear tactic on the West. And White people are worried. As soon as Obama leaves the White House and a Republican takes over, the war on ME muslims will intensify. Obama is a ME muslim sympathizer-billions of US$ is spent on muslim countries to appease them for America's safety. It doan work. Time for smitherines.

seignet posted:

If it is signs of the times, then ISIS will prevail and the West will feel the wrought of its armies within.  The year of 2015, will go down in history as the year when the Islamist began their fear tactic on the West. And White people are worried. As soon as Obama leaves the White House and a Republican takes over, the war on ME muslims will intensify. Obama is a ME muslim sympathizer-billions of US$ is spent on muslim countries to appease them for America's safety. It doan work. Time for smitherines.

not because yuh old rass ready to ready to kick the bucket means the rest of the world should also be ready...stop talkin poop 

Yuh sure yuh not one of those on the corner of 42nd st with ah cardboard in his hand shouting "Repent!"

RiffRaff posted:
seignet posted:

If it is signs of the times, then ISIS will prevail and the West will feel the wrought of its armies within.  The year of 2015, will go down in history as the year when the Islamist began their fear tactic on the West. And White people are worried. As soon as Obama leaves the White House and a Republican takes over, the war on ME muslims will intensify. Obama is a ME muslim sympathizer-billions of US$ is spent on muslim countries to appease them for America's safety. It doan work. Time for smitherines.

not because yuh old rass ready to ready to kick the bucket means the rest of the world should also be ready...stop talkin poop 

Yuh sure yuh not one of those on the corner of 42nd st with ah cardboard in his hand shouting "Repent!"

I agree with Obama that ISIL cannot wipe out the US or the West. That civil war started with Assad's father against the Islamists way back when. Bush sent the Baathist generals into the arms of these Islamists.

 

You can say the same with Trump. The demographics in 2016 favors a Democrat dressed up as a monkey over the Republican candidate. Trump has his 40% of the Republicans polled. If 60% of those vote for him, his general elections numbers will make him look like Mondale to Reagan.

RiffRaff posted:
seignet posted:

If it is signs of the times, then ISIS will prevail and the West will feel the wrought of its armies within.  The year of 2015, will go down in history as the year when the Islamist began their fear tactic on the West. And White people are worried. As soon as Obama leaves the White House and a Republican takes over, the war on ME muslims will intensify. Obama is a ME muslim sympathizer-billions of US$ is spent on muslim countries to appease them for America's safety. It doan work. Time for smitherines.

not because yuh old rass ready to ready to kick the bucket means the rest of the world should also be ready...stop talkin poop 

Yuh sure yuh not one of those on the corner of 42nd st with ah cardboard in his hand shouting "Repent!"

Yuh have the benefit of more years to witness what will come upon yuh fuh yuh stupidity. 

I am always puzzled by infantile minds who associate death with being old. As if being young, one escapes death.

Kari posted:

I agree with Obama that ISIL cannot wipe out the US or the West. That civil war started with Assad's father against the Islamists way back when. Bush sent the Baathist generals into the arms of these Islamists.

 

You can say the same with Trump. The demographics in 2016 favors a Democrat dressed up as a monkey over the Republican candidate. Trump has his 40% of the Republicans polled. If 60% of those vote for him, his general elections numbers will make him look like Mondale to Reagan.

Suh yuh prefer attrition. Let the Muslims fanatics kill as many Westerners as they feel like until they get fedup and stop on their own?

Obama should not be quoted on anything. As an American of African persuasion, his intellect does not prepare him to administer America as the Whites would do. Wait until the Republican gets in. Obama, makes all comments on a half as way. He says alot without substance. He seems to equate thing with sports, basketball, football, etc.

That's the way I see it. 

Kari posted:
caribny posted:

Kari quit being hysterical and understand that Muslims have an image problem, and ONLY Muslims can fix this!

Tell me how!

I am not a Muslim. That is for Muslims to discuss and develop strategies.

1.  Why are there elements within that religion who have a literal interpretation of the Holy Book? Both Jews and Christians have moved beyond this.

2. Why do Muslims allow Bedouin Arabs like the Saudis insert their primitive tribalism as fact, this especially in their intolerance for other religions, their harsh punishments even for Muslims who don't adhere to their primitive interpretation of the Quran, and their treatment of women. The Bedouinization of the religion has become apparent. 

Long lost are the days when Islam was defined by Baghdad, Cairo, Timbuktu, and Andalusia (Spain).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...iving_b_7088320.html

This outline an era when the Christians were the terrorists with primitive interpretations of the Bible, while Islam represented knowledge and tolerance. 

Muslims need to figure out how to remove the Wahhabis from their dominance of the religion.  It is this conservative interpretation which leads to lunatics, then MISINTERPRETING the Quran.  FACT.  Al Qaeda got their money from some where, as did ISIS, before the latter conquered territory and so became able to create their economy.

 

Kari posted:

 

You can say the same with Trump. The demographics in 2016 favors a Democrat dressed up as a monkey over the Republican candidate. Trump has his 40% of the Republicans polled. If 60% of those vote for him, his general elections numbers will make him look like Mondale to Reagan.

I will suggest to you that complacency will guarantee that the GOP will win.

FACT. The core constituency of the Democrats, blacks, Hispanics, and the youth of all races never recovered from the Bush induced recession, and signs are that the economy will slow again in 2016.  Will they bother to vote, now that there isn't a charismatic person, as was the case in 2008? 

Suppose Trump, assuming that he wins, suddenly becomes "reasonable". and the media, which he obviously "owns", peddles his "new" image, to a population who are basically cynical of the Clintons?  Americans have very short memories and the media are a bunch of drug addicts hustling for ratings, which Trump has proven that he can deliver.

So if Democrats think that the election is in the bag, they over estimate their core bases tendency to sit out elections, when they aren't enthused about the candidate.  Hillary just found out that young white women don't really like her.

seignet posted:
 

Obama should not be quoted on anything. As an American of African persuasion, his intellect does not prepare him to administer America as the Whites would do.

That's the way I see it. 

Its amazing how you are a bigot, but will readily deny it.  One can say what ever one wishes about Obama, but to claim that he has limited intellect, and to cite racial reasons for this, just shows how limited YOUR intellect is.

I will remember this next time you call me a racist and I will challenge you to tell me any statement made by me about Indians, which rises to what you are saying.

caribny posted:
seignet posted:
 

Obama should not be quoted on anything. As an American of African persuasion, his intellect does not prepare him to administer America as the Whites would do.

That's the way I see it. 

Its amazing how you are a bigot, but will readily deny it.  One can say what ever one wishes about Obama, but to claim that he has limited intellect, and to cite racial reasons for this, just shows how limited YOUR intellect is.

I will remember this next time you call me a racist and I will challenge you to tell me any statement made by me about Indians, which rises to what you are saying.

Yuh see Bush, he din hesitate to kill people. Obama, he is not like Bush and can never be like a White American. Dem people dat, mek a decision, brush dem teeth and have good night sleep. Obama, I bet he razz swim the bed all night. He juss act tough.

Like I said, that's the way I see it. No racism involved. Races of people act differently. 

Chief posted:

ISIS and the whabis hijack the religion Islam

Islam is a way of life and in it's revered book it speaks about tolerance for people like D2 who are atheists. Says in the Holy Quran " There is no compulsion in religion".

.

Why only atheists? Why not everyone..Buddhists, Christians, Hindus...?

skeldon_man posted:
Chief posted:

ISIS and the whabis hijack the religion Islam

Islam is a way of life and in it's revered book it speaks about tolerance for people like D2 who are atheists. Says in the Holy Quran " There is no compulsion in religion".

.

Why only atheists? Why not everyone..Buddhists, Christians, Hindus...?

Atheists dont believe religious mumbo jumbo,suh they want to enfold them. I am exploring the atheist belief and tending to lean that way.

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