None of us who were born in Guyana are ‘Indians’ or ‘Africans’- Charles Sugrim

Zed posted:

 

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

In a country with a history of dangerous divisiveness, as is the case of Guyana, there is no room for clannishness.   

I see the implication that blacks, who certainly have an open definition of their ethnic identity and culture, and who generally identify as being Guyanese, seeing being Afro Guyanese as being a subset of this, are debased for having "forgotten their culture". 

THIS is why the Creole culture in Guyana is the one that Guyanese as a whole use when they have to engage in inter ethnic communication.  This is also true in Trinidad, Suriname, and even Mauritius with its dominant Indian population. 

You will note that in cultural performances the "African" component consists of folk songs and dances rooted in Guyana, whereas the "Indian" component is usually rooted in India, usually in a language which 99% of the Indo Guyanese population no longer speak.  How often do we hear the Indo Guyanese folks songs that definitely exist?

You ought to thank God that there is at least one group in Guyana which have an openness in their ethnic definition and culture because without that Guyana would have been like Iraq.

I will suggest to you that EVERY Guyanese has "forgotten their culture" if by that you mean the culture of their ancestors.  How many people in Guyana speak Bhojpuri or the myriad of languages and dialects that the Indian indentures brought with them?  How many could comfortably return to the Indian villages that their ancestors left between 100-150 years ago?

I will suggest that the last "Indians" probably died 20 years ago.  By this I mean those who could comfortably move to India, and back to their ancestral villages. 

Are you suggesting that, if indeed Indians put being Indian first, have a weak bonding with Guyana, see no connection to the rest of the population then you think that the remaining 60% will be comfortable of an Indian dominated party rules?

Now think carefully in a nation like Guyana where control of the state plays a huge role in the economy and in the lives of the people.

People are entitled to their own cultures.  They are entitled to blend those cultures as they wish.

What they are NOT entitled to do is to pursue patterns of behavior which excludes others to opportunity, as we saw during the PPP era.

D2 two years ago began a debate on how Indians identify with each other, how they connect to Guyana, and above all how they interact with other ethnic groups and how they view them.

I will suggest to you that Indians are no longer 51% of the population and in the not too distant future, will be a mere 30%.  If the rest of the population views them as a group that feels that they have a right to disrespect and exclude others, then as they lose their political clout what do you think will happen.

This is a question that Indians have to address. D2 tried to get this discussion going and now so is Charles Sugrim. It is interesting that they both face ridicule from Indians.

Drugb posted:
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There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  .

You are a POI, not an NRI and so aren't entitled to an Indian passport.  This was done to protect Indians from being "corrupted" by Afro Indo Caribbean creoles like you.   

And yes you define what being Guyanese is right there. It is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious. Not only do many cultures exist but many people COMBINE these cultures in interesting ways. Many people exist in a variety of cultural continuums depending on the  context within which they happen to be in at a particular time.

THAT is what being Guyanese is about. Its a pity that the assorted racists, like the one who is now screaming that "oil and water" don't mix and is screaming about "tribal cannibalism", which is what African culture seems to be to him, don't understand this.

Because like it or not when an Indo Caribbean person enters an Indian space they see some one with an Indian body, with aspects of Indian culture, but one who is thoroughly westernized (usually speaks English with no ability to speak any Indian language, aside from a few phrases, songs and religious texts), and one who is imbued with Afro Caribbean creole culture.

 

Django posted:
Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

I spent yesterday teaching my grandson the difference between fact and opinion and that people are free to have their own opinions.  At least he got it. Some problems now for his parents because he will tell them when it is their opinion.

Now I am worried. You said that one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes. At the end you defined yourself firstly as Guyanese of East Indian parentage. What does being Guyanese have to do with genes?

Drugb posted:
.our culture after 100's of years removed from the motherland. . 

Your culture is now a blended mix of India with various western influences as well as Afro Caribbean creole.   If you don't admit to this then you deny who you are.  Now I know that you are embarrassed by the degree to which living alongside blacks (who according to you are a degraded people) has influenced you but it does.

I am always amused when I see how Indo Caribbean people respond to tassa drumming, and then read people like you boasting about your "intact" culture.  To quote several Indians, this is an exotic mix of India and Africa, all within an Anglo American context.

caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
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.

There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  .

You are a POI, not an NRI and so aren't entitled to an Indian passport.  This was done to protect Indians from being "corrupted" by Afro Indo Caribbean creoles like you.   

And yes you define what being Guyanese is right there. It is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious. Not only do many cultures exist but many people COMBINE these cultures in interesting ways. Many people exist in a variety of cultural continuums depending on the  context within which they happen to be in at a particular time.

THAT is what being Guyanese is about. Its a pity that the assorted racists, like the one who is now screaming that "oil and water" don't mix and is screaming about "tribal cannibalism", which is what African culture seems to be to him, don't understand this.

Because like it or not when an Indo Caribbean person enters an Indian space they see some one with an Indian body, with aspects of Indian culture, but one who is thoroughly westernized (usually speaks English with no ability to speak any Indian language, aside from a few phrases, songs and religious texts), and one who is imbued with Afro Caribbean creole culture.

 

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. Maybe, the problem is inherent in your definition of culture or what you see as the cultural attributes of particular cultural groups in Guyana and the Caribbean and how attempts are made in a hegemonic arena to universalized certain attributes.

Also, but at least they have some remnants unlike so many others who have forgotten their cultural background and also, they are not responsible for how they are viewed.

Zed posted:.

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. .

I am unaware that any one defined you (if you are Indo Caribbean) as being Afro Caribbean.

I am fully aware that white Canadians are extremely aware of what Afro Caribbean culture is.  They have no problem in identifying their culture (mainly evolving out of the British Isles) and seeing it as distinct from  that which they see from immigrants from the Caribbean.

An Indian looking at an Indo Caribbean person will also be fully aware of the differences that exist between these two groups of Indian derived peoples. In fact they even have separate terminologies for people born in North America of DIRECT Indian parentage (NRI) from those whose connections to India are more distant, and whose cultures have imbued so many other influences that it is now only tangentially Indian. 

That India of Modi has no space for "Hindus" who eat beef roti without even thinking of it.  Or who can be seen frequenting Pizza Hut and not being concerned that pork products aren't segregated from other food items.

How many Indo Guyanese can fluently speak any language of India.  And I mean daily conversations covering a full gamut of topics.

And my understanding of Canadian identity is that it recognizes cultural, religious and ethnic diversity but that does NOT take away from being a Canadian. So some one whose grandparents came from Guyana is a Canadian first and whatever ethnic identity they select second.

Zed posted:
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Also, but at least they have some remnants unlike so many others who have forgotten their cultural background and also, they are not responsible for how they are viewed.

An African can easily recognize many remnants of African culture within Afro Caribbean culture. He is however impressed that Afro Caribbean people don't take these remnants and then pretend to be "African" the way that so many Indo Guyanese use this and then scream that they are Indian first, and only coincidentally Guyanese.

Zed posted:
Django posted:
Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

I spent yesterday teaching my grandson the difference between fact and opinion and that people are free to have their own opinions.  At least he got it. Some problems now for his parents because he will tell them when it is their opinion.

Now I am worried. You said that one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes. At the end you defined yourself firstly as Guyanese of East Indian parentage. What does being Guyanese have to do with genes?

I mentioned define one self firstly genes secondly nationality,sorry if there are any confusion in my view of ones identity,I also mentioned vice versa

My view is people can choose how the define themselves,in multicultural societies sometimes people tends to define themselves by their ethnicity and nationality,in the ole USA we may hear Italian American,Irish American,African American,Asian American,when all is said and done they are Americans.

caribny posted:
Zed posted:.

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. .

I am unaware that any one defined you (if you are Indo Caribbean) as being Afro Caribbean.

I am fully aware that white Canadians are extremely aware of what Afro Caribbean culture is.  They have no problem in identifying their culture (mainly evolving out of the British Isles) and seeing it as distinct from  that which they see from immigrants from the Caribbean.

An Indian looking at an Indo Caribbean person will also be fully aware of the differences that exist between these two groups of Indian derived peoples. In fact they even have separate terminologies for people born in North America of DIRECT Indian parentage (NRI) from those whose connections to India are more distant, and whose cultures have imbued so many other influences that it is now only tangentially Indian. 

That India of Modi has no space for "Hindus" who eat beef roti without even thinking of it.  Or who can be seen frequenting Pizza Hut and not being concerned that pork products aren't segregated from other food items.

How many Indo Guyanese can fluently speak any language of India.  And I mean daily conversations covering a full gamut of topics.

And my understanding of Canadian identity is that it recognizes cultural, religious and ethnic diversity but that does NOT take away from being a Canadian. So some one whose grandparents came from Guyana is a Canadian first and whatever ethnic identity they select second.

Your long winded answer did not answer the question. 

One if the problems I have is your view that East indians are clannish but you have not defined what you see them doing that you determine to be clannish.

additionally, you attribute to a a whole group what you perceive some part of it to be, if you are correct. Furthermore, you talk about some amalgam of culture in the cultural milieu  that is Guyana as if it is a given and universally accepted within that cultural melieu. Furthermore, you seem to be posing the idea that East Indians in Guyana are being a threat to other communities or cultures in Guyana because they practice key elements of their culture and tradition. You see, to think that it takes away from being part of Guyana or being a Guyanese. 

I am surprised that you get away with your assertions here. Had I the time, I would challenge most of what you have posted on this thread.

got to go.

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
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So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix.

Right and you are an Indian first too!   I wonder where your Indian passport is. Where is it?  Apparently being Guyanese for you is just an accident of being born there but the rest of the population disgusts you.

I wonder though as this population increases relative to Indians how you will survive there if this attitude towards them is so apparent.

Its always good when people cease to disguise their racism and we can see them for who they really are.

Congoman, I don't answer asinine questions. I don't care what you think of me. I know who I am. I know that you prefer human meat over other meat. You are lucky that you were not eaten at birth.

Django posted:
Zed posted:
.nationality,in the ole USA we may hear Italian American,Irish American,African American,Asian American,when all is said and done they are Americans.

Exactly.  The Irish/Italian Americans love to wave their stars and stripes and black Americans are even less interested in Africa than are black Caribbean people.

Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

Zed posted:
.. .

One if the problems I have is your view that East indians are clannish but you have not defined what you see them doing that you determine to be clannish.

.

got to go.

It is not my view that Indians are clannish. In fact its the root of the Afro Guyanese ethnic dilemma that "dem Indians racial".

By this they mean that an Indian will put another Indian first and foremost and ignore all else.  This meaning that in any Indian controlled environment non Indians will be marginalized.

I invite you to concoct your own reasons why the vast majority of blacks, and a large number of mixed people in Guyana do not trust Indians.  

It is always interesting that people try to evade discussion on topics by engaging in personal attacks. Sugrim raises this as an issue, though he pretends as if Afro Guyanese have a similar obsession with "Africa" ahead of being Guyanese. D2 introduced the issue TWICE two years ago.

We are accustomed to this behavior.

You don't even see the irony that to prioritize your ethnic identity over your national, and to suggest that those outside of your ethnic group are of scant importance is the very definition of clannishness.  As Jagdeo himself said "his people" are rural Indians. Yet he wants to lead Guyana where rural Indians are a MINORITY!  So what will those who don't fit into his notion of who his people are to think?

And look at how Moses was being lambasted for the mere fact that he said that he was a Guyanese of East Indian descent. Why were so many "Indians" offended by this? 

Clannishness clearly because otherwise they would know that for any multi ethnic society to succeed there will have to be an overarching identity that links all of these diverse peoples, which in fact Moses tried to do. 

Now how many "Indians" defended Moses' right to say that he is a Guyanese of East Indian descent?  No they prefer Jagdeo who says that "his people" are rural Indians and that he will "take back Guyana" for them.

And need I remind all that the issue isn't about culture or ethnic identity. The issue is to which one prioritizes that ethnic identity over the national in a manner that serves to exclude those who fall outside of that ethnic definition.

23 years of PPP rule and Zed had NOTHING to say about the rampant racism which occurred against non Indians in that era. Now why should he when his prime identity is that of being Indian, with Guyana his place of birth and nowhere in his thinking embraces the notion that in a multi cultural society there has to be a construct which embraces all. He then queries why some would have a huge problem with this type of thinking after they suffered the  consequences of it under 23 years of PPP rule!

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

You should remind yourself that the cousins you left in "Congo" are stll eating humans. India is the cradle of civilisation. I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

caribny posted:

And need I remind all that the issue isn't about culture or ethnic identity. The issue is to which one prioritizes that ethnic identity over the national in a manner that serves to exclude those who fall outside of that ethnic definition.

23 years of PPP rule and Zed had NOTHING to say about the rampant racism which occurred against non Indians in that era. Now why should he when his prime identity is that of being Indian, with Guyana his place of birth and nowhere in his thinking embraces the notion that in a multi cultural society there has to be a construct which embraces all. He then queries why some would have a huge problem with this type of thinking after they suffered the  consequences of it under 23 years of PPP rule!

I do not repeat myself as nauseum like you do. I make my point and move on because I have better things to do, as I have told you before. I have made my comments about racism and the Jagdeo rule. Dig it up and reread it. 

 You seem to know what I am thinking. Which crystal ball are you reading! I know that you are attributing to others those feelings that you carry and display so many times here.  

Where is it stated that being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutually exclusive? I think that exists in your mind. Regarding your definition of clannishness, You make up your own definition by pointing to supposed behaviours and then use that to say that East Indians are clannish. This is not only structurally unsound, but also infantile.

Notions of being a proud guyanese and a proud East Indian being mutually exclusive does not exist in my mind or posts. It exists in the minds of several Guyanese, including you, and that come through in some many of your comments. Find out who they are. 

You rarely ever or have never visited Guyana since you have left. Yes, I know you read the news and your relatives tell you. Well, you need to visit Guyana and see the interaction of people of different ethnic groups. Your views are myopic and dangerous. 

I do not have a difficulty with people defining themselves as Guyanese and East Indians. Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel that they are viewed as Guyanese. When prominent people  in Guyana use words such as "visitors"  one wonders. Yes, all Guyanese have experienced 23,years of the PPP. But, they have experienced 28 years of the PNC dictatorship. No one goes around shouting that Afro Guyanese were partially responsible for the Burnham years. But we have you blaming East Indians for the  23 Years Of PPPmrule. Why the distinction. Because of Rodney and some others? Well, East Indians were struggling also, but they seem not to count because they did nonhave advanced degrees. 

You try to overcone the contradiction that exists in your statement that East Indians learning and keeping parts of their culture is a threat to other groups by your infantile notion of clannishness. And please do not refer me to supposedly author or  sources because I have read many of them.

 

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
 

 I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Yes. Caste and the abuse that goes with it. Child slavery. defecating in public when toilets are available. Wife burning.  All an integral part of "your" culture.

Thanks for admitting that you still crave human meat. It does not matter how much you try to knock my culture, I am still proud to be an Indian. 

You are still a slave; a slave to your racist mentality and inferiority complex for which we Indians have a cure.

Proud to be an Indian. 

Nehru posted:
antabanta posted:
antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

One has to identify one self from the Country of origin/Passport. It has nothing to do with race, Grow a bloody brain so you can stop asking STUPID questions!!

So your passport has you as being from India..correct?

Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

You should remind yourself that the cousins you left in "Congo" are stll eating humans. India is the cradle of civilisation. I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Come on Mits you are better than this. Carib has never to my knowledge said he is African nor has he ever indicated he speaks any of the African dialects nor participate in any African functions.

Zed posted:

...............Where is it stated that being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutually exclusive? I think that exists in your mind. Regarding your definition of clannishness, You make up your own definition by pointing to supposed behaviours and then use that to say that East Indians are clannish. This is not only structurally unsound, but also infantile.

.........you need to visit Guyana and see the interaction of people of different ethnic groups. Your views are myopic and dangerous. 

Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel that they are viewed as Guyanese.

 Zed you seem confused here.

First you say being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutally exclusive..... is only in carib's mind.

You then mention that anyone saying East Indians as being clannish...... is structually unsound and infantile.

You then add that there is interaction between people of different ethnic groups, anyone saying any different you say... their views are myopic and dangerous. Now here is where things go South.

You then say "Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel they are viewed as Guyanese."

So if what you said before is all true, why would this group of people feel this way? 

Is it possible this group view themselves as not being Guyanese and by doing so hold on to their heritage and say they are Indian, even to the point when a person of East Indian heritage say they are not Indian but Guyanese they are ridiculed which is then viewed by others as being clannish?

cain posted:
Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

You should remind yourself that the cousins you left in "Congo" are stll eating humans. India is the cradle of civilisation. I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Come on Mits you are better than this. Carib has never to my knowledge said he is African nor has he ever indicated he speaks any of the African dialects nor participate in any African functions.

That's my point. He has lost his African culture and language; he most likely has an English name; dresses like the white man. He treats people of Indian decent with scorn. I am not finished with him yet.

cain posted:
Nehru posted:
antabanta posted:
antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

One has to identify one self from the Country of origin/Passport. It has nothing to do with race, Grow a bloody brain so you can stop asking STUPID questions!!

So your passport has you as being from India..correct?

We do not need a passport to prove that we are Indians. We are descendants of Bhaaratam. It's our ancestry that matters. The words India or Indian is derived from Greek.

Extract from Wikipedia:

There are over 1.3 million people of Indian origin or ancestry in Canada, the majority of which live in Greater Toronto and Vancouver, with growing communities in Alberta and Quebec. Nearly 4% of the total Canadian population is of Indian ancestry, a figure higher than both the United States and Britain. According to Statistics Canada, Indo-Canadians are one of the fastest growing visible minority groups in Canada, making up the second largest non-European ethnic group in the country after Chinese Canadians. The Indo-Canadian community can trace its history in Canada back 120 years to 1897 when a contingent of Sikh soldiers visited the western coast of Canada, primarily British Columbia which at the time was very sparsely populated and the Canadian government wanted to settle in order to prevent a takeover of the territory by the United States.

Non-resident Indian and person of Indian origin

A Non-Resident Indian (NRI) is a citizen of India who holds an Indian passport and has temporarily emigrated to another country for six months or more for employment, residence, education or any other purpose. A Person of Indian Origin (PIO) is a person of Indian origin or ancestry who is not a citizen of India, but is a citizen of another country. A PIO might have been a citizen of India and subsequently taken the citizenship of another country, or have ancestors born in India or other states.

cain posted:

Come on Mits you are better than this. Carib has never to my knowledge said he is African nor has he ever indicated he speaks any of the African dialects nor participate in any African functions.

Shut yuh backside, carib refers to himself as a black man in a racial context.  We indo guyanese see indian as a racial and cultural identity not a nationality. Look how even a dimwit like you refer to yourself as putagee even though you have no portuguese passport nor ever will as they don't want the likes you in their country. 

cain posted:
Zed posted:

...............Where is it stated that being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutually exclusive? I think that exists in your mind. Regarding your definition of clannishness, You make up your own definition by pointing to supposed behaviours and then use that to say that East Indians are clannish. This is not only structurally unsound, but also infantile.

.........you need to visit Guyana and see the interaction of people of different ethnic groups. Your views are myopic and dangerous. 

Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel that they are viewed as Guyanese.

 Zed you seem confused here.

First you say being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutally exclusive..... is only in carib's mind.

You then mention that anyone saying East Indians as being clannish...... is structually unsound and infantile.

You then add that there is interaction between people of different ethnic groups, anyone saying any different you say... their views are myopic and dangerous. Now here is where things go South.

You then say "Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel they are viewed as Guyanese."

So if what you said before is all true, why would this group of people feel this way? 

Is it possible this group view themselves as not being Guyanese and by doing so hold on to their heritage and say they are Indian, even to the point when a person of East Indian heritage say they are not Indian but Guyanese they are ridiculed which is then viewed by others as being clannish?

Cain. In kindness, please reread what I have posted. Even your first sentence does not reflect accurately what I wrote.

Cain, many East Indians, when they say they are Indian mean that they are East Indian. This is not a scientific study, but just an anecdotal survey. that is why there was such a backlash to Moses when he said that he is not Indian. Many took this to mean that he was denying that he is East Indian.

now, I have to go. Visiting my sister who is married to a Portuguese (I wonder why they are never referred to as white)so we can eat some garlic pork, pepper pot and duck curry and aloo roti. Now, this is important!

All, any man wants, is to have a sexy woman to cuddle up at nights, respectful children, caring neighbours, meaning employment, to sleep restfully whenever he chooses and to know the laws of the land guarantee his civil rights. Deny such necessities, all people will seek refuge in race, creed and tribe.

Guyana could be a shining example in race relations. The Devil has the country. 

The indifference of the citizens makes them identify with race on all issues even the very basic ones.

seignet posted:

All, any man wants, is to have a sexy woman to cuddle up at nights, respectful children, caring neighbours, meaning employment, to sleep restfully whenever he chooses and to know the laws of the land guarantee his civil rights. Deny such necessities, all people will seek refuge in race, creed and tribe.

Guyana could be a shining example in race relations. The Devil has the country. 

The indifference of the citizens makes them identify with race on all issues even the very basic ones.

Are you calling Guyanese niggroes "devil"?

seignet posted:

.

The indifference of the citizens makes them identify with race on all issues even the very basic ones.

The reason why Guyanese identify strongly along ethnic lines reflects their insecurity.  You have one race who thinks that they can exclude others and be concerned with their own, and then you have another who reacts against that.

So two groups live in distrust.  The rest of the population remains in horror as some of the most incompetent and corrupt governments in the Caribbean have ruled Guyana since independence.

And the record is there. In the 60s Guyana was one of the most developed British colonies with infant mortality rates LOWER than most.  This despite our damp and flood prone environment which should have resulted in worse health outcomes.

Guyana is now LAST in the English speaking Caribbean using any measure of socio economic progress.  This position didn't change in the 23 years of PPP rule, and indications are that this isn't going to change under the current batch of clowns either.

Zed posted:

Cain, tell  me why some East Indians might not view tgemselves as Guyanese. Might it not be because of what the treatment they have received at times in our history? A  good area of exploration. 

And why don't blacks similarly not want to call themselves "Guyanese" even as the treatment that they had to undergo during the colonial era and in the various periods of PPP rule was no better than what Indians incurred during the colonial rule and during periods of PNC rule?

Amazingly blacks see themselves first and foremost as "Guyanese" viewing their ethnicity as Afro Guyanese as a subset of this. They have an open notion of their ethnicity and their culture and one need only see how they have traditionally viewed douglas when compared to how Indians view them. If a dougla wants to be "black" nothing stops him. A dougla will almost never be seen as an Indian.

During the Burnham era more than a few Indo Guyanese living in the USA used to lie and tell people that they were Trinidadians. During the worst of the Jagdeo era Afro Guyanese remained staunch Guyanese even though they despised the PPP.

There is a different level of attachment that Indo Guyanese and Guyanese of African and mixed ancestries have to Guyana.  To deny this is to lie.

The only group which can use their treatment as an excuse are Amerindians, who stuck in the interior, and ignored and despised by coastlanders, have no reason to like the rest of us.

Zed posted:

.. that is why there was such a backlash to Moses when he said that he is not Indian. Many took this to mean that he was denying that he is East Indian.

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This behavior in fact revealed much about Indo Guyanese ethnic identity and the fact that many don't see Guyana is anything other than where they were born, and maybe where they live, own assets and derive an income.

Moses specifically said that he was a "Guyanese" and not an "Indian".  He then expanded the point by acknowledging his pride in his East Indian ancestry and also pointing out that a Pakistani views himself as such and not as an Indian.

Now I can see an uneducated person misunderstanding him, especially one who is schooled to think that he should live in an Indian bubble and exclude all who aren't.  But it was the EDUCATED Indians like Jagdeo who exploited this.  And then expanded this into Amerindian areas by also aiming to terrify them about how a loss by the PPP would mean marauding blacks setting out to kill them.  He of course knowing that the PPP can no longer win just by the East Indian  vote.

People can twist as much as they wish but that reaction to Moses' comments did much to illustrate why exactly Afro Guyanese and those of mixed ancestry cannot trust Indians, especially those with PPP affiliations (95% of them). 

That the PPP felt very comfortable mounting a blatantly racist and anti black campaign and they weren't reigned in speaks volumes about Guyana.  The PPP is yet to apologize for that infamous Chronicle editorial where Afro Guyanese were portrayed as a violent and criminal group who have never made any positive contribution to Guyana. 

 

Mitwah posted:
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That's my point. He has lost his African culture and language; he most likely has an English name; dresses like the white man. He treats people of Indian decent with scorn. I am not finished with him yet.

Hmmm. Now aside from the name I think that this describes most Indo Guyanese.  They dress no differently from the blacks, speak a form of English WHICH WAS DERIVED IN Africa, and they treat blacks with scorn to the point of disowning THEIR OWN KIDS should they decide to marry one of them.

You are now a full card carrying member of the Indo KKK.  The white supremacists will be happy to hear your comments about black cannibalism.

Drugb posted:
 

Shut yuh backside, carib refers to himself as a black man in a racial context.  

Carib says that Guyana is a multi cultural society. Druggie and the rest scream that blacks have no culture.  They then continue to describe us as a violent, criminal and lazy group who have made no contribution to Guyana.  Mitwah joins them by calling us cannibals.

Now who is more disrespectful?

Continue to pretend that you are fluent in Hindi script and can live in your ancestral village in India.  Continue to think that you can live in a multi cultural nation and damn 50% of the population (Afro and mixed Guyanese) as having no culture.  Continue to also think that you can behave in this manner as the Indian population dwindles and the mixed population expands.

The PPP lost because the mixed population cast their lot with APNU/AFC.  They are welcome to continue to be ethnically exclusive (clannish).

Mitwah posted:
 

Non-resident Indian and person of Indian origin

A Non-Resident Indian (NRI) is a citizen of India who holds an Indian passport and has temporarily emigrated to another country for six months or more for employment, residence, education or any other purpose. A Person of Indian Origin (PIO) is a person of Indian origin or ancestry who is not a citizen of India, but is a citizen of another country. A PIO might have been a citizen of India and subsequently taken the citizenship of another country, or have ancestors born in India or other states.

Don't worry Mitwah, no Indian passport for you. That ship literally sailed too long ago.

Now wail at Moses for daring to say that he is a Guyanese and not an Indian.  He knows that he doesn't have an Indian passport.

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