None of us who were born in Guyana are ‘Indians’ or ‘Africans’- Charles Sugrim

caribny posted:

To be Guyanese is to acknowledge that it is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious.  It is to acknowledge that there has been much cultural exchange between the various groups.

There are Indians here who seem to think that this is a bad thing and that they should live in isolation from other ethnic groups and pretend as if their culture has remained unchanged since arrival from India.

Druggie can engage in his hysterical reaction, which implies that to acknowledge the diversity of Guyana, and to acknowledge the degree to which Guyanese of all ethnicities participate in it means that there is a plot for genocide involving Indians.

Druggie if the presence of other cultures is offensive to you then journey back to your ancestral village in Uttar Pradesh, but understand that they will treat you no better than they treat African students.

To be Guyanese in fact defies the notion of being monolithic, but you want to be a monolith which means that you cannot live in a diverse society, as monolithic behavior cannot survive amidst diversity.

You are the one calling us clannish etc. My family being from GT have assimilated some Afro culture and in fact have many of them in our employ. I never stated that I despise Blacks and their culture. You are the one who has consistently stated this about Indians over the past decade. 

Drugb posted:
.. 

Druggie as of 2012 there were more mixed kids in Guyana than Indo Guyanese kids.  So when 2030 when mixed people outnumber Indians what will you do then? 

With Indians then being around 30-35% of the population do you think that existing in an isolated ethnic cave will allow them to survive. Clearly at that point racial voting would have ceased to exist.

Drugb posted:
cain posted:
Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

You are one of the ones that pray for our extinction. You even side up with the Afros, who the rest of people from Portugal hate, just to seek our demise. 

Again, you went right up there, even touching the top of your descending colon just to retrieve that shit. You're better than any magician banna.

Drugb posted:
..

You are the one calling us clannish etc. My family being from GT have assimilated some Afro culture and in fact have many of them in our employ. I never stated that I despise Blacks and their culture. You are the one who has consistently stated this about Indians over the past decade. 

1. You despise blacks. To you we are lazy, criminal, unproductive, stupid and unable to achieve anything without the guidance of Indians.  You revel in all the stereotypes of blacks that white racists peddle. 

I even wonder whether you have sufficient respect for blacks to have them in a managerial capacity. Are they all low paid laborers?

2. You make my point about what living in a culturally diverse society. If your family has embraced aspects of Afro Guyanese culture (which is NOT African culture) you are no longer Indian, as there is no where in India where the person who operates within that cultural context can operate.

Now those who refuse to understand this are in fact clannish, and from the responses that I am seeing here a good % of Indians indeed are. The ones who aren't are accused by people like you of advocating the elimination of Indians.

cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

That is correct, you should show some respect to our people. You are not entitled to use the C word. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

cain posted:
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Again, you went right up there, even touching the top of your descending colon just to retrieve that shit. You're better than any magician banna.

Druggie in his stupidity reveals that his family operates within a multi cultural context, which is the point of Charles Sugrim.  Then screams that this is wishing the elimination of Indians.

The Indo KKK are truly manic in their stupidity.

caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
.. 

Druggie as of 2012 there were more mixed kids in Guyana than Indo Guyanese kids.  So when 2030 when mixed people outnumber Indians what will you do then? 

With Indians then being around 30-35% of the population do you think that existing in an isolated ethnic cave will allow them to survive. Clearly at that point racial voting would have ceased to exist.

What does mixed kids have to do with some of us wanting to hold on to our Indian identity from our foreparents?  The people of Guyana will choose who they want to punish under regardless of what you or I think. 

Drugb posted:
. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

Because he is a GUYANESE whose ancestors came from Portugal and as a GUYANESE he has a right to be up in GUYANESE business.

Now are you an Indian or are you Guyanese?

Drugb posted:
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What does mixed kids .. 

Based on your comments you are already a "mixed kid" as you claim that your family is already diverse culturally.  They retain aspects of the ancestral cultural while absorbing some of the cultures of the people who they live among.

I suggest that you and the Indo KKK accept this fact, because the folks from India will gladly remind you of these facts. Like when you all hear tassa drum and start wining!

caribny posted:

1. You despise blacks. To you we are lazy, criminal, unproductive, stupid and unable to achieve anything without the guidance of Indians.  You revel in all the stereotypes of blacks that white racists peddle. 

I even wonder whether you have sufficient respect for blacks to have them in a managerial capacity. Are they all low paid laborers?

2. You make my point about what living in a culturally diverse society. If your family has embraced aspects of Afro Guyanese culture (which is NOT African culture) you are no longer Indian, as there is no where in India where the person who operates within that cultural context can operate.

Now those who refuse to understand this are in fact clannish, and from the responses that I am seeing here a good % of Indians indeed are. The ones who aren't are accused by people like you of advocating the elimination of Indians.

Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. Don't kill the messenger but rather you should focus your energy on changing this perception.  If you drive around Guyana you will immediately know when you are in a Black village vs an Indian village by the quality of the neighborhood.  The same can said of the US where most Black neighborhood are easily distinguishable from many other the extent on based on decay and blight, both socially and economically.  

Drugb posted:
cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

That is correct, you should show some respect to our people. You are not entitled to use the C word. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

Foolish person...unlike you guys I do not pretend a dam thing. When asked my background I say Guyanese further on in the conversation I explain my foreparents and where they came from just as any other Canadian who would say they have Irish, Scottish etc blood.

caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
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What does mixed kids .. 

Based on your comments you are already a "mixed kid" as you claim that your family is already diverse culturally.  They retain aspects of the ancestral cultural while absorbing some of the cultures of the people who they live among.

I suggest that you and the Indo KKK accept this fact, because the folks from India will gladly remind you of these facts. Like when you all hear tassa drum and start wining!

Apparently you know even less about IndoG than you pretend. We don't look to Indians from India for approval of our Indian culture. It is just there, omnipresent, a cultural identity that your people long lost when they succumbed to the White man's culture. Now you folks struggle with adapting Kwanza and other artificial African identities while Africans from Nigeria and other countries laugh at you. 

Drugb posted:
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Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. ..  

The data that is there will tell you that the VAST majority of blacks do NOT engage in criminal behavior, yet you scream that we are unproductive occupy ourselves mainly with criminal behaviors.

The tragedy of the black villages is that the best and the brightest left those places generations ago and so you see what is left.  My background is in Buxton, BV, Victoria and Nabaclis but its been many generations since anyone directly in the family has been living there.  

Afro Guyanese and Indo Guyanese living in the USA have comparable median household incomes. NEITHER are seen as an entrepreneurial group with self employment rates among BOTH being way below the average for immigrant groups. In fact BOTH seem to love working for the MTA and in hospitals. 

Jamaicans in fact are more likely to be self employed than are Guyanese, and the gap is so large that even if we assume that no Afro Guyanese are self employed the self employment rates of Indo Guyanese will not outpace that of Jamaicans. AND in fact Jamaicans are not seen as being entrepreneurial either.

You even lambaste your supposed black relatives by damning them as a bunch of welfare dependents who look at you as their GOD.

caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
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Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. ..  

The data that is there will tell you that the VAST majority of blacks do NOT engage in criminal behavior, yet you scream that we are unproductive occupy ourselves mainly with criminal behaviors.

The tragedy of the black villages is that the best and the brightest left generations ago and so you see what is left.  Afro Guyanese and Indo Guyanese living in the USA have comparable median household incomes. BOTH are not seen as an entrepreneurial group with self employment rates among BOTH being way below the average for immigrant groups. In fact BOTH seem to love working for the MTA and in hospitals.

You even lambaste your supposed black relatives by damning them as a bunch of welfare dependents who look at you as their GOD.

I never said that the majority of Blacks engage in criminal behavior. The statistics from the state prisons around the world show that Blacks are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate from their counterparts. These are the facts, don't blame me.

Drugb posted:
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Apparently you know even less about IndoG than you pretend. We don't look to Indians from India for approval of our Indian culture.

Now you just think that you are just like them and then start crying when they reject you all by letting you know how Afro Caribbean they consider you to be.

As for Kwanza. Don't know how many Afro Guyanese celebrate but I do know that most celebrate Xmas and I do know that they do NOT celebrate Xmas the way that the English do.

And in fact most Afro Guyanese are NOT running around trying to be make believe Indians. But I leave you all to dwell in the concept of India that you all get from watching too many Bollywood movies while you chow down your beef roti, despite having the name Persaud.

Drugb posted:
..

I never said that the majority of Blacks engage in criminal behavior. .

Every comment from you about blacks indicates that we are criminals and unproductive people, or that we are welfare recipients.   You never make commentary about blacks who are hard working and productive.

Even when a mention is made of a highly successful Afro Guyanese you sulk and then  wail that they must be some extreme exception as most live on welfare and are losers.

You even lambaste your own supposed black relatives of living off welfare and unable to do anything without your advice.

Drugb posted:
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This is correct, they also whipped Babulall but he refused to change his name. 

Show me proof that the British prevented Indians from practicing their culture.

In fact they DELIBERATELY allowed it to exist to ensure that Indians remained alienated from the black population and also unable to obtain education or access civil service jobs.

And they certainly didn't ban Bollywood movies from Guyana as they became available.  On the other hand masquerade groups and other manifestation of Afro Caribbean culture was harassed by the authorities until after WWII.

This was all part of ensuring that most Indians remained trapped on the sugar estates to be used as cheap labor, and to ensure that they wouldn't join with the blacks to demand better working conditions.

antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

caribny posted:

Now you just think that you are just like them and then start crying when they reject you all by letting you know how Afro Caribbean they consider you to be.

As for Kwanza. Don't know how many Afro Guyanese celebrate but I do know that most celebrate Xmas and I do know that they do NOT celebrate Xmas the way that the English do.

And in fact most Afro Guyanese are NOT running around trying to be make believe Indians. But I leave you all to dwell in the concept of India that you all get from watching too many Bollywood movies while you chow down your beef roti, despite having the name Persaud.

Far from the truth, there are distinct differences between our culture but yet there is commonality. After 200 years of splitting apart, cultures will invariable evolve and may even assimilate other influences. Any Indog with this knowledge will never be ashamed of their culture nor will they take insults from any ignorant person like yourself trying to form a wedge. 

Your lack of understanding of the IndoG culture leads you to make ignorant statements about our need for acceptance from India Indians. In fact if you knew India then you would know even among its nationals there are thousands of different sub cultures that have very little in common. 

Blacks in Guyana on the other hand have all but abandoned their culture 100's of years ago to adapt that of the massa. Some remnants remain such as que que etc, however this is the exception rather than the rule. 

antabanta posted:
antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

One has to identify one self from the Country of origin/Passport. It has nothing to do with race, Grow a bloody brain so you can stop asking STUPID questions!!

Drugb posted:
.. 

Blacks in Guyana on the other hand have all but abandoned their culture 100's of years ago to adapt that of the massa. Some remnants remain such as que que etc, however this is the exception rather than the rule. 

And here we go.  This man who thinks that he has an Indian passport so he can show contempt for Guyanese culture.  When last I checked there was definitely a distinct Caribbean  flavor, with a Guyanese flavor being a part of this. 

Continue to be clannish and display contempt for this, but understand that you also have some level of Caribbean flavor about you so if you think that its "massa's" culture I just feel sorry for you.

Do you know that Christianity reached India before it reached the British Isles?  Yes I know you think its "massa" but people in India and Africa had exposure to Christianity before most of Europe did.

Here is the difference. We know that we aren't "African" and are proud to be a Caribbean people. SOME Indians think that they are "Indian" and make themselves look like jackasses on front of REAL Indians as they attempt to perpetrate this myth. In reality they are a Caribbean people, just a different version of being Caribbean than are the blacks who they lambaste as lacking a culture.

You know what druggie an African will respect me more than an Indian will respect you, because I am me and know who I am.  You are pretending to be what you are not.  

Druggie there is a book called "The Sly Company of People Who Care" written by Rahul Bhattacharya. Basically he spends most of the book laughing at Indo Guyanese.  In fact I gather that Indian cricketers found Indo Guyanese females to be an easy piece of flesh, so desperate to be with some one direct for India.  Of course these cricketers felt that no decent woman in India would behave like this.

 

cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

Maderia and the Azores wasn't doing so hot when dem indentured. now, u tink u pppl were better than dem Indian who venture upon dem oceans.

Imbeciles doan look towards progress. Suh, our forefather whether dalit or not had brains.

They made a tremendous scarifice for us modern day Indians. And we have done well with their efforts. Even though they recieved pittance, they managed to put aside for the generations they never hoped 2 c. That is this generation of East Indians from Guyana. Y U N V us.  

caribny posted:

And here we go.  This man who thinks that he has an Indian passport so he can show contempt for Guyanese culture.  When last I checked there was definitely a distinct Caribbean  flavor, with a Guyanese flavor being a part of this. 

Continue to be clannish and display contempt for this, but understand that you also have some level of Caribbean flavor about you so if you think that its "massa's" culture I just feel sorry for you.

Do you know that Christianity reached India before it reached the British Isles?  Yes I know you think its "massa" but people in India and Africa had exposure to Christianity before most of Europe did.

Where did I mention that I have Indian passport? In fact India does give citizenship to persons of Indian origin if they can prove lineage.  You probably can try if you have any Indian in your family. 

There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  Indeed Christianity and Islam were in Asia and Africa a long time ago. However your people were not Christians when they came to Guyana. They lost their culture when it was beaten out of them by massa. Now you pretend that all the European culture that you adopted is African, what a dingbat your are. 

caribny posted:

Here is the difference. We know that we aren't "African" and are proud to be a Caribbean people. SOME Indians think that they are "Indian" and make themselves look like jackasses on front of REAL Indians as they attempt to perpetrate this myth. In reality they are a Caribbean people, just a different version of being Caribbean than are the blacks who they lambaste as lacking a culture.

You know what druggie an African will respect me more than an Indian will respect you, because I am me and know who I am.  You are pretending to be what you are not.  

Druggie there is a book called "The Sly Company of People Who Care" written by Rahul Bhattacharya. Basically he spends most of the book laughing at Indo Guyanese.  In fact I gather that Indian cricketers found Indo Guyanese females to be an easy piece of flesh, so desperate to be with some one direct for India.  Of course these cricketers felt that no decent woman in India would behave like this.

 

You know nothing about the psych of Indo Guyanese. You are guessing that they believe themselves to be Indians from India. We know our identity and are not ashamed for propagating our culture after 100's of years removed from the motherland. This is pretty much the same for most Indians who migrated throughout the world, keeping their ancestral identity intact via religious practices, cultural practices and food. 

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
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Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

Which apparently is to live in isolation from other ethnic groups in Guyana, refuse to develop some bonding with them, and then wail when others consider Indians to be not patriotic Guyanese and who exhibit clannish attitudes.

It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

seignet posted:
0..

Imbeciles doan look towards progress. Suh, our forefather whether dalit or not had brains.

.

in fact Portuguese and Chinese have both done better than Indians who are not better off than are blacks. At least according to your Ravi Dev who despises blacks.

Now why did Indians do much worse than did the other indentures.  They certainly didn't undergo the brutalization that the blacks under went.

Mitwah posted:
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It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

So you admit that you are clannish. Honesty is good but ask yourself as the Indian population plummets how well they are going to do as their clout declines. 

The PPP will not win elections based on Indian clannishness, and the remainder of the population isn't going to tolerate Indian clannishness either. 

When 70% of the population is black/mixed that isn't going to do Indians well unless Indians work on overcoming the suspicion that these groups have of them because of their reputation for being clannish.  I bet you will learn how to be "Guyanese" at that point, and understand that Indo Guyanese will not do well unless they learn how to work with others and ceases despising their cultures.

Drugb posted:
Nehru posted:

Remember when Kunta came to America and he was whipped until he said " OK Rass man my name is Joseph"

This is correct, they also whipped Babulall but he refused to change his name. 

They shoulda whipped his ass some more then perhaps he woulda ketch sense and pass it down the line...instead look what it got him...stupidy rassoles on GNI.

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
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It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

So you admit that you are clannish. Honesty is good but ask yourself as the Indian population plummets how well they are going to do as their clout declines. 

The PPP will not win elections based on Indian clannishness, and the remainder of the population isn't going to tolerate Indian clannishness either. 

When 70% of the population is black/mixed that isn't going to do Indians well unless Indians work on overcoming the suspicion that these groups have of them because of their reputation for being clannish.  I bet you will learn how to be "Guyanese" at that point, and understand that Indo Guyanese will not do well unless they learn how to work with others and ceases despising their cultures.

So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix. Do you ever see a fowl cock screwing a duck?  I work well with others. I doubt you do with your kind of idiotic mentality. Seems like a tribe is missing one of its cannibals. I can mix with you but afraid that you will eat me. You are from the tribe that prefers human flesh over other meat. Mr. Congo man, I am an Indian first, then Guyanese now Canadian. Samajana?

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
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So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix.

Right and you are an Indian first too!   I wonder where your Indian passport is. Where is it?  Apparently being Guyanese for you is just an accident of being born there but the rest of the population disgusts you.

I wonder though as this population increases relative to Indians how you will survive there if this attitude towards them is so apparent.

Its always good when people cease to disguise their racism and we can see them for who they really are.

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