None of us who were born in Guyana are ‘Indians’ or ‘Africans’- Charles Sugrim

We must begin to celebrate our ethnic groups and their cultures.

July 11, 2017  Source

Dear Editor,

I will repeat what Prime Minister Nagamootoo stated in the last election campaign, for which he was roundly condemned by the previous government. He stated that he is not “Indian”. I responded to his statement with a letter to the press, full supporting the Prime Minister’s statement. None of us who were born in Guyana are ‘Indians’ or ‘Africans’. To be Indian or African is not an ethnic group. We are Guyanese of different ethnic groups. People of every ethnic group on earth were born in Africa today. Does this means that they are all ‘Blacks’? No, but they are qualified to be called African because they were born on that continent. Similarly, in India people of different ethnic groups were born there today, and that qualifies them to be called Indian. So the nationality of someone born in India or in Africa makes those people Indian and African respectively. But in Africa, their nationality is not African, but Nigerian, Libyan, Ghanaian, and so on. In Guyana, we are neither Indian nor African. We are Guyanese by nationality.

In Africa, the Blacks can be from the ethnic group of Yoruba, Ibo, Zulu and so on. In Guyana, some of our ancestry came from these ethnic groups. So a Guyanese whose ancestry came from the great continent of Africa is either a Yoruba, an Ibo or any of the many ethnic groups on that continent. You are not African. Your roots came from Africa, but you are not African, you are Guyanese of African descent belonging to the ethnic group of Yoruba, Ibo or some other ethnic group. Similarly, our ancestors who came from India also have different ethnic groups.

The people in Guyana need to wake up from their slumber. The country is blessed with the greatest ethnic and cultural groups in the world, and what are we doing? Instead of celebrating our great cultures with pride and joy, we seem bent on destroying each other.

My recommendation is that we carry out a detailed survey in two predominantly African villages, two predominantly Indian villages, two communities of both ethnic groups, and two Amerindian villages. Let us find out what these communities need to make our country move forward. Our researchers must compile the findings of these surveys and then propose new measures to launch a ‘New’ Guyana. We can use the information from the survey to begin the process of building our people rather than tearing them apart. The funds for this project should come from the business community, the government and other interested parties. We can then use some of our students from the University of Guyana to work with our researchers to get this done.

Let us put our hands to the plough and build a New Guyana for our children and grandchildren, and let us begin to celebrate our different ethnic groups and our rich cultures with pomp and glory.

Yours faithfully,

Charles Sugrim    

Original Post

Indians in Guyana are Guyanese by nationality and Indian as one of the six racial groups of people. We are Indians because we are descendants of India where our ancestors belong. Charles Sugram came out with this nonsense that Guyanese understood fully. Moses made a blunder which he knew was wrong when he defended himself very poorly to the Guyanese folks. Moses was busy praising the PNC that he forget about his ancestors in Indian where he received his doctorate degree from his Tamils family. 

This is why some Guyanese of Indian ancestry will always have a difficult time. Every other nationality can say "I am Guyanese" but not them, that is because they are a confused lot.

There used to be a saying about The Bronx being the most confusing place on Father's day but you guys got them beat. East Indians who fail to recognize they are first and foremost, Guyanese, will always be confused people. Try explaining to someone from India you are Indian.

Yesterday I visited a buddy who is receiving cancer treatment and met a young nurse with a brown complexion. She had to stay in the room at all times so she was included in our conversations. I asked her if she happened to be from Guyana or West Indies to which she answered.."No I am Canadian, born in Scarborough with parents from Africa and India."

You guys here would all be confused as heck if you were in that position..you'll all be saying some bullshit like you are Afrindia.

No I did not, why would I? My nose is long enough. I even saw that she had a book beside her and told her of the one I just completed by Trevor Noah ( he is from South Africa) who she never heard of until she checked on the net. Did I forget to say she was quite pretty?

Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

People of Indan Origins, that is the ones whose forefathers went to Africa and the Carribbean are the only Indians who refer to themselves as Indians, meaning their forefathers are Indians, so they associate with them. In reality, the first set of pioneers are really from India. However, we who consider ourselves as Indians embraces all of India and its customs while those present day people that hails from the sub-continent seldom refer to themselves as Indians, many simply states the REGION they came from, example, the punjab, south indian, Malalyam, tamil, Dravidians.

I say, I am an Indian.

A Guyanese is a person void of racist tendencies. And there is not such a person, as yet. But, they slowly evolving, realizing Guyana has several races of people and a truly Guyanese government is one that governs for Guyanese.

So for now, we all have racism, whether we agree or disgree. Because in the Amerindians land of Guyana, everything is a race issue.

caribny posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

Django posted:
Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

There must be a good veterinary clinic close to him.

cain posted:
Django posted:
Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

There must be a good veterinary clinic close to him.

You are the CERTIFIED GADAHA, dat would be the appropriate place for you. Not that any help can change you from being a dumb Donkey!!!!!

Mitwah posted:
 

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

They already call them ABCDs American Born Confused Desis because they don't want to marry some one of their parents' choosing. 

By the time those born in India die off its story done.  Indo Guyanese have long past that point.  How many people born in India are still alive? In fact its a declining % of Indo Guyanese who even know family members who were.

skeldon_man posted:
 

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

This is interesting. Caribj scoffs at the notion that Afro Guyanese are "African" and this is how you respond.

Don't worry Indians don't consider you an Indian.  In fact they argue that you all are already heavily  "Afro Caribbeanized" and this has nothing to do with Caribj.  Its interesting that when you all hear a drum beat you start dancing Afro Caribbean.

Charles Sugrim is a moron.  Why was the PM celebrating Indian Arrival Day and Tamil Day?  Why Eric Phillips distinguishes between Amerindian and Africans and Africans and Indians?  Why Carib keeps talking about our ambassadors are mostly Indian?  These people are offering their ill-informed and uneducated opinions of issues they have no business dealing with. Sugrim is pandering and it's only boosting more ignorance.

antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

seignet posted:
 

I say, I am an Indian.

Siege,

I do the same and proudly add I was born in Guyana and my Great Grand Parents were indentured laborers from India.

Recently on my vacation in FR at CDG,and Indian guy asked if i am from Mauritius,i replied i was born in Guyana and the two country share a common history of Indian Indenture-ship,he agreed.His little daughter was listening to our conversation and chimed in you should visit Mauritius,i replied some day i will.

caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
 

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

They already call them ABCDs American Born Confused Desis because they don't want to marry some one of their parents' choosing. 

By the time those born in India die off its story done.  Indo Guyanese have long past that point.  How many people born in India are still alive? In fact its a declining % of Indo Guyanese who even know family members who were.

It does matter what you say. Mere dil mein Hindustani mai hu.  I am Indian in my heart. No one can take that away from me. 

The story is not done when those born in India die. We perform pujas sometimes going back to 3 to 4 generations for our ancestors. 

Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

seignet posted:
antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

Are you saying that divisiveness in Guyana started with and was created by black people? The same black people who are accused of trying to integrate the races?

caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
 

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

This is interesting. Caribj scoffs at the notion that Afro Guyanese are "African" and this is how you respond.

Don't worry Indians don't consider you an Indian.  In fact they argue that you all are already heavily  "Afro Caribbeanized" and this has nothing to do with Caribj.  Its interesting that when you all hear a drum beat you start dancing Afro Caribbean.

You don't know me. I do not listen to their shit.

I don't give a rat's ass what any Indian thinks of me. I am not "Afro Caribbeanized". I do not attend any Caribbean events here nor do I listen to their music. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

.  Why Carib keeps talking about our ambassadors are mostly Indian? .

We are not denying the role of ethnicity. What we are saying is that you are NOT an Indian.  You are an Indo GUYANESE.  You shouldn't be  centered in India. You are centered in GUYANA. 

60% of the Guyanese population do not identify themselves as being of Indian descent, which means that those who do need to figure out an identity which links them to the rest of the population.

Most Indo Guyanese have a fictional identity of themselves begin connected to India, and lambaste Afro Guyanese who lack a similar interest in "Africa". 

Afro Guyanese are GUYANESE whose ancestry is mainly from the African continent.

People like yourself view yourself to be an Indian who just happened to be born in Guyana.   This is why you lambasted Moses when he said that he was a GUYANESE.   You just cannot understand why he would offer this as his core identity and his ethnicity as an Indo Guyanese being secondary to this.

skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

Great so if you don't have any thing to do with Guyana or the rest of the Caribbean then you can ATTEMPT to return to India. Don't cry when they call you an "Africanized Indian" though, as they tend to see Indo Caribbean people in that light.

Mitwah posted:
.

Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

Which apparently is to live in isolation from other ethnic groups in Guyana, refuse to develop some bonding with them, and then wail when others consider Indians to be not patriotic Guyanese and who exhibit clannish attitudes.

seignet posted:
antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

In fact Jagdeo made Afro Guyanese more fearful of Indian rule and more determined to ensure that Guyana be rid of it.

And why shouldn't they be if Indians run around disdaining other Indians for identifying themselves as Guyanese.  Apparently one cannot be Guyanese and Indo Guyanese, but then this follows logic given that people consider them to be Indians, who just happen to be born in Guyana, but who have no interest in the remaining 60% of the population. 

When Moses attempted an identity which acknowledged his Indian ancestry, but also embraced being Guyanese and cognizant that Guyana is multi ethnic, multi cultural and multi religious you all Ravi Dev types had a mental break down.

You are welcome to live in isolation as an Indian who happens to be born in Guyana, but who isn't rooted in being Guyanese.  In another 15 years there will be more Guyanese of mixed ancestry than there will be of Indian ancestry.

What will you do then, because as it is in the under 5 age cohort there are now more mixed people than there are Indians?

 

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

Drugb posted:

.. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. .. 

To be Guyanese is to acknowledge that it is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious.  It is to acknowledge that there has been much cultural exchange between the various groups.

There are Indians here who seem to think that this is a bad thing and that they should live in isolation from other ethnic groups and pretend as if their culture has remained unchanged since arrival from India.

Druggie can engage in his hysterical reaction, which implies that to acknowledge the diversity of Guyana, and to acknowledge the degree to which Guyanese of all ethnicities participate in it means that there is a plot for genocide involving Indians.

Druggie if the presence of other cultures is offensive to you then journey back to your ancestral village in Uttar Pradesh, but understand that they will treat you no better than they treat African students.

To be Guyanese in fact defies the notion of being monolithic, but you want to be a monolith which means that you cannot live in a diverse society, as monolithic behavior cannot survive amidst diversity.

cain posted:
Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

You are one of the ones that pray for our extinction. You even side up with the Afros, who the rest of people from Portugal hate, just to seek our demise. 

Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

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