Is Guyana ready for a 3-party polity or will the AFC continue to be a 3rd party?

Topics

Originally Posted by Gilbakka:

Originally Posted by Kari:

Yuji22, you may be a vocal supporter of the PPP - nothing is wrong with that - but you must demonstrate an understanding of how the party works. Moses's vote in that video you posted was a Party vote. He dissented before that vote was taken. As long as he was a member of the PPP it doesn't matter how much he wails and cusses AGAINST that vote his name had to be put on that paper as a vote.

The video's evidence of Moses's dishonesty is dishonest in itself. So strike that. You are yet to show dishonesty against Moses.

Come again....make it real.

Party discipline required that Moses should vote with the PPP regardless of his personal opinions.

As Kari points out, Moses did express his disapproval at Freedom House for the records.

Under Guyana's proportional representation system, neither the PPP nor the PNC tolerates votes of conscience in the National Assembly. Each party votes en bloc according to collective/majority decision reached beforehand at Freedom House or Congress Place.

Anil Nandalall knows that, and he himself has to subscribe to party discipline, or out goes he.

Moses have serious problems with the electorate in Guyana. If he is the AFC Presidential Candiadte, then he would have been elevated to that position just as Jagdeo did for the PPP.

These politicians MUST desist from their brand of systems that hand picks Presidential Candidates.

Moses solely approved Jagdeo's benefit package. Had he objected to it and let the Party Banished him, he would have been in a better position to go to the polls as an AFC Presidential Candidate. Moses knew back then when Janet forced Jagdeo on Central Committee of PPP. He was not much liked by her.

And Moses was not much liked by an overwhelming number of people in the PPP-taht might have made Janet's case even easier.

A bloated person, think of being heir apparent.

His selection as the PC probably came about as the same mindset. AFC acting on sentiments of a politician being done in by the PPP. The AFC sold out to the PPP stalwart who for a great portion of his life was in the Peoples Progressive Party and denied the impoverished better quality of life. We are all aware of the PPP's deals with Forbes and the Soviets.

The citizens of Guyana have gone past Nagamootoo. He is just like the PPP and PNC-lacking.

8/31/145:28 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Rev:

Originally Posted by Gilbakka:

Contrary to the barking of its detractors, the AFC is growing from strength.

gilbakka:

* The AFC received 8.1% of the votes in 2006 and 10.3% of the votes in 2011. Now, if the AFC were to surpass the 12.3% of the votes the UF received in 1964, most by a 3rd party in Guyana's history, then I'd be convinced they are growing from strength to strength like you mentioned.

* But like I said, I rather suspect the AFC peaked at 10.3% in 2011. You and karimullah's hero Moses Nagamootoo has become stale bread in Guyana.

* But let's be patient. The elections will hopefully be held in a few months and we'll all see the real numbers. We'll find out if the AFC did, indeed, peak in 2011 at 10.3% or if they are like you said "growing from strength to strength."

Rev

REMINDER TO BIG EGO MAN REV:

REV AND GILBAKKA HAVE A DEAL TO STAY AWAY FROM GNI FOR ONE YEAR IF THE PPP WINS OR LOSES COMING ELECTION.

8/31/147:21 PM

KariSenior Member

Do I need to remind everyone here of the Rev's numbers for Mitt Romney in the last US Presidential elections? They were iron-clad and stamped with divine truth - just like how the AFC will never surpass 12.3% that the UF gained in '64.

The numbers savant speaks again.

8/31/148:16 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by Rev:

* Looks like karimullah has run away from this thread. I see him starting multiple meaningless threads in Political taking cheap shots at his fellow posters.

* KARIMULLASH CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

* And the truth is the AFC is destined to remain a 3rd party in Guyana politics and will never have the same gravitas as the PPP and PNC.---the 10.3% the AFC received in 2011 will mark their peak.

Rev

I see where you missed when I said I was going to the Brazil Day Parade in Manhattan. I have a social life. This BB is to expose brainless idiots like you - not for me to live by the minute. I see you haven't responded to being told you're a fraud. Like you're hiding. I'm here now to ensure you're reminded of this.

8/31/148:19 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by skeldon_man:

Originally Posted by Kari:

Originally Posted by skeldon_man:

Originally Posted by Nehru:

I will be very surprise if the KFC survives after the next Election.

Bhai Nehru,

They might will still be around. However, you might see them suffer the same fate as the UF...a slow death.

skeldon_guy, you'll have to detail reasons why current evidence shows that the AFC will suffer a slow death. Saying so alone will not make it so, or convince people who read your comment that it is deigned to be so.

Reason.....reason......reason.......

Keep it real!

Historical trends..GAIL, GUMP, ROAR, UF,WPA etc.

Keep in mind also that the leaders are very ambitious individuals. At some point in time we will see a power struggle and an implosion. Guyanese kultcha!

I see you missed my thesis that the two-party dominance (ethnicity-based) may be coming to an end. Those 3rd parties with seats that suggest fringe operated in that 2-party dominance. Address whether today's political climate marks a continuance of this 2-party dominance or whether there is room for a genuine 3rd party. All you have to do is to see how the PNC and PPP are faring today. That my boy, is what I want you to address rather than regurgitate the stuff that that other numbers guy (proven over and over to be a numbers idiot) posts.

8/31/148:23 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Kari:

The numbers savant speaks again.

MOSES GROUPIE KARIMULLAH IS LIVING IN A FAIRY LAND---A FANTASY WORLD--HE IS DAYDREAMING

RE: AMERICA

* Lemme revisit the 2012 election results in America:

51.1%---Obama

47.2%---Romney

* So Rev's numbers were a tad off.

* Romney turned out to be a poor campaigner and a lousy candidate---he didn't have the fire in his belly. He deserved to lose.

TURNING TO GUYANA

* That's a whole different ball game.

* Lemme revisit the 2011 election results in Guyana:

48.6%---PPP

49.8%---PNC

10.3%---AFC

* Karimullah you have to be living in fantasy island if you believe that your hero STALE BREAD Moses Nagamootoo will arouse and galvanize the Guyanese public into putting the AFC on the same platform as the PPP and PNC when it comes to votes received.

* Like I said, the AFC is destined to forever be a 3rd party in Guyana politics. They will always tap into the 10-12% of the ANTI PPP/PNC voters.

Rev

8/31/148:34 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by caribny:

Originally Posted by Kari:

Originally Posted by Nehru:

I will be very surprise if the KFC survives after the next Election.

Nehru, use of KFC instead of AFC impresses no one and is a sign of sophomoric tomfoolery. So the choice is yours to continue to use it or be a grown up....your call.

To address whether the AFC will survive or not, I present their performance in the last two elections.

2011 7 seats 35,333

2006 6 seats 28,366

By contrast the PPP had this result

2011 32 seats 166,340

2006 36 seats 183,867

The PPP lost 4 seats and over 17,000 votes - and over 6,000 new voters VOTED.

The AFC GAINED 1 seat and just under 7,000 votes.

What does this evidence say abot the AFC's chances of surviving?

Be real now......and reason.....reason....reason

Actually this might reflect more dissatisfaction within the bases of the two major parties. You will note that the PPP lost 4 seats but APNU gained 3 seats, so benefitted more from shifts than did the AFC.

APNU did a solid job in getting its mainly African and mixed voter base out, and it apparently benefitted from the shifting of much of G/towns population to the WBD, as its region 3 vote increased significantly.

The AFC benefitted from a loss of support in Regions 5 and 6 where Nagamootoo had support. He wasn't able to use this to make inroads into Regions 2 and 3, where voter turn out declined.

So I am really not sure if the AFC has established a core base as the PPP and APNU definitely have, even if shrinking.

The problem that the AFC has is the perception that they cant win, and that they will have to rely on one of the major parties to have any impact. Even you stated that its joint action with APNU which has led to some successes.

APNU has a problem and that is the legacy of the "slo fiah mo fiah" era which cost them some of its middle class base, as the defection of people like Trotman and Hughes indicates. So they will gladly "let" the AFC be the more aggressive parties. They also know that it is to their benefit if AFC activities pull Indian votes away from the PPP, or cause them to simplay not vote at all.

The AFC has emerged as an intermediary party which consists of the blacks who Indians can work with, and the Indians who black can work with. I only wonder if the Guyanese electorate is sophisticated enough to understand the usefulness of this.

Caribny, you make a good case for the AFC being an intermediary party, with limited success in eroding the base of the PPP and PNC in the last elections. Understand that for the PNC it was simply RE-GAINING rather than gaining 4 seats. The AFC's Region 2 prospect can only be enhanced by the recent protest action by rice farmers over late payment by the government.

Well, I raised the question about the AFC actually taking its place as a peer in a 3-party alignment rather than being a 3rd party, and I appreciate your contribution. The AFC is strategically shifting to Regions 7, 8 and 9, and youths. They are also banking on Moses pulling away more from Region 6. They feel that Linden is up for grabs.

8/31/148:36 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Rev:

Originally Posted by caribny:

Rev it is clear that all that motivates you is a blind hatred of blacks.

* CARIB! CUT THE BULLSHIT AND STOP THE NONSENSE.

Rev

Your bit about the "Cuffie Lovers", or the "Dirty Indians" and you can find more if you go to your posts of 2012.

You are a disservice to the PPP. That is unless that party shares the blind hatred of blacks which you do, and most blacks are of the impression that this is indeed the case. One need only look at how the PPP behaves at black protests vs. those where most of the protestors are Indians. In no situations have police fired live rounds into a crowd of Indians. They have done so TWICE since Ramotar has taken charge.

8/31/149:09 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Originally Posted by Rev:

Originally Posted by caribny:

Rev it is clear that all that motivates you is a blind hatred of blacks.

* CARIB! CUT THE BULLSHIT AND STOP THE NONSENSE.

* I am a strong supporter of the PPP. I believe that the PPP is the party best equipped to lead Guyana to continued growth and development.

* What madness you are blabbering about hating blacks. It is clear you are who harbors tons of hate.

Rev

Carib Is a blatant racist. He shows up here and attacks Indos and expect Indos to lie down and take it like the did during the Black dictatorship era of Hoyte and Burnham.

Carib is longing for the days when Blacks exploited, raped and killed Indos.

Thanks to Bharat and Uncle Gaj, we are now a proud people and will NEVER give up our country to Black dictators.

Granger rigged his own Leadership and Carib was elated and excited that another Black dictator is gunning for the Presidency to install his own brand of black dictatorship once again.

The shameless PNC and PNC lovers in the AFC will sell their female family members to the PNC.

You actualy express your racism.

1. You blindly support the PPP only because you see it as an Indian party/

2. You are a dishonest dog when you try to peddle the lie that I similarly blindly support the PNC for racial reasons. I have been very open in my criticism of the PNC, up to and including the fact that under Burnham is destroyed the black Guyanese population.

3. You also operate from a notion that the PPP owns Indians. I criticize the PPP as do MOST INDIAN posters on GNI. So why is a criticism of the PPP an attack on Indians? Especially when it has incorporated the very unsavory black elements from the Burnham era, who in their time were part of the apparatus which the Burnham used to harass those Indians who he deemed nuisances.

8/31/149:24 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by raymond:

Originally Posted by Mars:

Originally Posted by raymond:

Originally Posted by Mitwah:

Originally Posted by raymond:

Kishan...enough of pictures we have seen a thousand times...you will just sink a discussion revealing the failings of some on GNI

The pictures are more effective than the jaco Waco narratives. Who is complaining?

man...like you missed the thread where I said repetitive pictures and posts will subject the the poster to a few days off...

It is stupid practice and very juvenile

90% of DG's posts advise other forum members to look for some proverbial man in the mirror. Will you give him time off for this or does he get a break for being old and demented?

Until someone find the man in the mirror, I see no problem

Dear all I sense Raymond has been spoken to by the PPP.

All anti PPP people are being targeted.

I shall stay away from this site until sanity comes back to the ADMIN.

He appears to be on a crusade to empower the PPP.

He tell mes not to post pictures but yet YUJI, Dem GUY and Cobra and all the PPP poster have a free for all on GNI.

This is so unfair.

It is disgusting.

8/31/149:41 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Kari:

Yes I should have used the term regaining 3 seats as my point was actually about the fact that APNU did a good job in consolidating its base and getting them out to vote. This unlike 2006 when the turn out in its strongholds was low and there was some shift to the AFC.

The AFC LOST votes in APNU areas like Region 4, 10 and in New Amsterdam. It did well because of the significant gain in Regions 5 and 6. IS that a sign that support for the PPP against Indians is declining, or is it merely that Nagamootoo had a strong base of support which he carried with him to the AFC?

What is indeed a fact is that Nagamootoo was unable to produce votes in Regions 2 and 4, with PPP losses due more to low voter turn out.

What is also true is that Nagamootoo lacks cross over appeal to the African/mixed voter base which is now at almost as large as the Indian vote. With the mixed component increasing.

A focus on Regions 7-9 is one that has some merit as the Amerindian vote isn't wedded to any of the major parties, despite Rev's bleats.

I will suggest that the AFC also focuses on regions 2 and 3 and ensure that they don't lose and even build upon their gains in regions 5 and 6.

While I understand that the AFC will focus on the PPP which is the minority gov't, and not APNU, its ally (for the moment) in parliament, I will caution that it should at least nominally contest in regions 7 and 10, and in Bartica in region 7. If it doesn't the PPP will campaign, as they did in prior times scaring its base that the AFC is intent on splitting the Indian vote (and the possibility of a PPP gov't) while allowing APNU to jeep its African/mixed base, and potentially winning the plurality as a result.

8/31/149:44 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Originally Posted by Rev:

Originally Posted by caribny:

Rev it is clear that all that motivates you is a blind hatred of blacks.

* CARIB! CUT THE BULLSHIT AND STOP THE NONSENSE.

* I am a strong supporter of the PPP. I believe that the PPP is the party best equipped to lead Guyana to continued growth and development.

* What madness you are blabbering about hating blacks. It is clear you are who harbors tons of hate.

Rev

Carib Is a blatant racist. He shows up here and attacks Indos and expect Indos to lie down and take it like the did during the Black dictatorship era of Hoyte and Burnham.

Carib is longing for the days when Blacks exploited, raped and killed Indos.

Thanks to Bharat and Uncle Gaj, we are now a proud people and will NEVER give up our country to Black dictators.

Granger rigged his own Leadership and Carib was elated and excited that another Black dictator is gunning for the Presidency to install his own brand of black dictatorship once again.

The shameless PNC and PNC lovers in the AFC will sell their female family members to the PNC.

Evidence Juji22, evidence......where is the evidence? Your buffoonery is patent. You are a fish market brawler......that's all....and bereft of intelligence.

8/31/1410:10 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Stale Bread Moses and Cockey Ramjattan will never be a part of any government in their lifetimes.

These traitors have sold out Indo Guyanese.

Stale Bread Moses and Cockey Ramjattan - there is no place for such language like stale bread and cockeye. Grow up.

These traitors - traitors to whom or what may I ask?

8/31/1410:12 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Mitwah, you shamelessly attack yuji on a daily basis and Ray shows a blind eye to your attacks.

I did not stoop to your levels and never will.

You belong to the gutter. You are an utter disgrace to Indos and Hindus.

I did not stoop to your levels and never will. You did, remember the stalebread and cockeye language?

You are an utter disgrace to Indos and Hindus - seems like coded racila language to me, as if Mits is siding with some evil race and religion.

8/31/1410:14 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by raymond:

Originally Posted by Mitwah:

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Stale Bread Moses and Cockey Ramjattan will never be a part of any government in their lifetimes.

These traitors have sold out Indo Guyanese. They align themselves with PNC thugs in blocking economic development in an effort to destroy our beautiful motherland.

There meetings today are indication of the bleak future that waits these Indo Sellouts In the AFC.

These crabdawgs, Cockeye and Stale bread must be stopped.

Raymond, would you like me to respond in kind to his statement re Moses & Prakash?

are you Moses or Ramjattan? Don't you attack the PPP folks? You tend to attack people personally and you still posting the same pics over and over again...

Seems like RayRay has no problem to ad hominem attacks on public figures unable to respond on this Board - cockeye and stalebread. You ok with these words, right RayMeister?

8/31/1410:16 PM

MitwahSenior Member

Kari, go lite on Raymondo. I suspect, he was spoken to by the PPP/C boys.

Everbaady loves Raymond!

8/31/1410:19 PM

KariSenior Member

Originally Posted by raymond:

ok...guess you want some free time

Get some reason time here Ray. Put your thinking cap on. What place does personal references to Mits have in this thread? And what is wrong with Mits asking if he should respond in kind?

You are the Moderator here with support from the members of this Board. Don't do things to make this Board irrelevant. You do not want to go down as the person who caused the demise of this Board when thinking people turn their backs on what you would have made this Board. Like Politicians you are in a position of responsibility because of ground support. You have a duty to act responsibly.

8/31/1410:20 PM

Former Member

ray if the PPP is pressuring you, and I have no doubt that they are, just RESIGN. Don't do what so many in Guyana do and collapse to their intimidation.

9/1/141:45 AM

cainTired old hippie

Yeh Ray, give dem the middle finger an say, "Heh"

9/1/141:57 AM

Former Member

Originally Posted by cain:

Yeh Ray, give dem the middle finger an say, "Heh"

Guys it is simple....

If Ray cannot do the Job we supported him to do he must resign before he is removed.

Stop chataying Rev and Yuji.

We vote for you because we taught you were different from Kwambe.

You cannot stop anyone from posting Pictures .....

Are you trying to Protect PPP or PNC.

They are 2 Thieves if I need to post Pictures to enhance my argument....why are you trying to trying to practice Burnham Tactics of Banning Freedom of Expression....DO NOT STOOP LOW AGAIN.

We expect better from you.

9/1/142:09 AM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Kari:

Originally Posted by raymond:

Originally Posted by Mitwah:

Originally Posted by yuji22:

Stale Bread Moses and Cockey Ramjattan will never be a part of any government in their lifetimes.

These traitors have sold out Indo Guyanese. They align themselves with PNC thugs in blocking economic development in an effort to destroy our beautiful motherland.

There meetings today are indication of the bleak future that waits these Indo Sellouts In the AFC.

These crabdawgs, Cockeye and Stale bread must be stopped.

Raymond, would you like me to respond in kind to his statement re Moses & Prakash?

are you Moses or Ramjattan? Don't you attack the PPP folks? You tend to attack people personally and you still posting the same pics over and over again...

Seems like RayRay has no problem to ad hominem attacks on public figures unable to respond on this Board - cockeye and stalebread. You ok with these words, right RayMeister?

how come you never said anything about attacks on PPP folks???

BTW, have you checked the media recently...there are numerous attacks on public figures in the US

I'll have to suspend half the board, both PPP and PNC, for attacks

9/1/1411:51 AM

Former Member

* You are all invited to a boring thread in social:

* Click on the Link:

https://guyana.crowdstack.io/topic/rev-how-we-see-the-world

Rev

9/1/1412:05 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Rev:

* You are all invited to a boring thread in social:

* Click on the Link:

https://guyana.crowdstack.io/topic/rev-how-we-see-the-world

Rev

LOL we boy Mr PRETEND Mr DR REV.

9/1/141:16 PM

Former Member

Originally Posted by Kari:

Guyana's political history shows that there is a two-party dominance with all 3rd parties being of minor significance, with the exception being the formal coalition of the PNC and the UF back in 1964, and in practical terms the collaboration of the AFC with the APNU to make the governing PPP/C a minority government but with its hands on the Presidency.

Unlike the UF and WPA whose members had nothing to do with the two main parties, the AFC was formed from a defection of leading members of both parties.

We've seen the media reports of the unsavory events during the PPP/C rule following the death of its founder Cheddi Jagan.

We've also seen migratory pattern and the youthful age of voters whose understanding of the past is received from their parents and family. These are dynamics that provide a narrative of somewhat of a level playing field in the minds of the AFC, and some here in this forum. In the last election cycle it paid some dividends to the AFC, and so the next cycle remains an interesting one from this standpoint. Will it be enough to move the needle to make the AFC a viable peer to the other two party. Will a one-third block for each party be the order of the day?

There is nothing in the APNU support to base to suggest a widespread defection to the AFC, though you can expect some. It is the PPP that appears vulnerable to polling defections.

The pervading theme in Guyanese politics is that the PPP is the PPP of their fathers and grandfathers and that the APNU is the PNC of the mid-70s to the mid-80s. The latter is tougher to shake off than the former. That is why the PNC doesn't appear to be vulnerable to defections. What makes this notion viable is that the liberal wing of the party led by the former Brigidier of the Army and a historian with an intellectual bent defeated the more traditional wing of the PNC that has the baggage that scare potential defectors.

Is the PPP vulnerable to the extent that they can become a 34% party? Here is where I'm discerning that while not a party built along racial support, it must play the ethnic game. What this means is that the AFC will stay away from giving the PPP the opportunity to say "see, they're working like the PNC of old and are just like them....they cannot protect the Indians like we PPP can".

The AFC, unlike the previous two cycles now has a Parliamentary record. It has used its 7-seat count to get the 26-seat APNU to vote to block some proposed Bills, to chair commissions of inquiry, and now even a vote of no-confidence. They have taken positions by vote on social issues, pensions, domestic violence and so on. Its leadership seek to message itself as intellectuals who are not tainted with corruption, and who lead simple lives.

All that sounds good, but it remains to be seen if a major figure like Moses Nagamootoo, its next Presidential candidate can pull enough Indian votes, especially from Berbice to position itself as a 34% party. Nigel Hughes has positioned himself, being the counselor for native American land battles, to peel some votes away from interior constituencies. Ramjattan and civic organizations sound like a nice fit.

What we do know is the the PNC is evolving its image and the PPP is changing more rapidly. They both don't appear to be dominant as in past election cycles, in spite of the money and organization strengths. The underdog knocks at the door.

Please, let's get serious responses and not knee-jerk standard lines. Look hard and deep into the realities. Talk to folks back home and ask if Guyana is different than 40 years ago - and I don't mean press freedoms, and so on. I mean economically and that sense of civic maturity that we should come to expect.

I shall borrow from an IT blog, tongue-in-cheek - Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous

Yes Guyana is ready for 3 party polity.

9/29/1411:23 PM

Former Member

Quote Kish......

Yes Guyana is ready for 3 party polity.

It is simple.....

(1) PPP Train run off the Tracks....

Today PPP has become the most corrupt Govt ever in the History of Guyana.

(2) PNC track record is poor ....

but they control 40% Votes in Guyana.

(3) Neither PPP or PNC can get 50% votes...

so neither will get a Majority in Parliament.

(4) Some PPP Indian Supporters and

Some PNC African Supporters....

will never trust or forgive the other....

and will not work together....

Some PPP Indian supporters still cannot forgive PNC for what they did between 1964 and 1992.....and they are right.....WHY WOULD YOU TRUST THEM.

Some PNC African supporters still cannot forgive PPP for what they did between 1992 and 2014.....and they are right.....WHY WOULD YOU TRUST THEM.

(5) AFC holds the Balance of Power...and AFC will continue to attract supporters from both PPP & PNC.

Guyanese had enough Corruption in Govt....and they want real Development & Change.

(6) Both PPP & PNC have to come clean,

Stop Thief, Stop Corruption and

Work along with the AFC and move Guyana Forward.....

Or....... PPP & PNC could continue to fight each other for another 50 years.

9/30/1412:23 AM

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