I think that Timothy should have said a pox on all three of them. Now, no one, except those who are financially benefitting from the AFC's inclusion in the government will ever trust a "Third Force".

i think that blame for Guyana's problems can be attributed to both major political parties, the and UF and now the AFC. One need not forget our colonial master who propagated a divide and rule strategy and the US  that encouraged and funded ethnic violence in Guyana. Furthermore, blame resides in those who mindlessly support the major parties because of race. I do believe that there are some that support the major political parties based on philosophy and other non racial reasons.  The racism that exists among all groups in Guyana (Carib please note the date so you can remember), including the Indo Guyanese and Afro Guyanese  exacerbates the problem of governance, national identity and consciousness,  and progress in Guyana. We will continue to be mired in race based politics long into the future because the hurts of the past become the basis for the hurts at the present and the future.

Too often, those who look through their ethnic lens 'see' or attribute racism by other groups without recognizing  the coded words they use and actions that implicitly and explicitly demonstrate their own racism. I despair for the future of Guyana.

Zed posted:

I think that Timothy should have said a pox on all three of them. Now, no one, except those who are financially benefitting from the AFC's inclusion in the government will ever trust a "Third Force".

i think that blame for Guyana's problems can be attributed to both major political parties, the and UF and now the AFC. One need not forget our colonial master who propagated a divide and rule strategy and the US  that encouraged and funded ethnic violence in Guyana. Furthermore, blame resides in those who mindlessly support the major parties because of race. I do believe that there are some that support the major political parties based on philosophy and other non racial reasons.  The racism that exists among all groups in Guyana (Carib please note the date so you can remember), including the Indo Guyanese and Afro Guyanese  exacerbates the problem of governance, national identity and consciousness,  and progress in Guyana. We will continue to be mired in race based politics long into the future because the hurts of the past become the basis for the hurts at the present and the future.

Too often, those who look through their ethnic lens 'see' or attribute racism by other groups without recognizing  the coded words they use and actions that implicitly and explicitly demonstrate their own racism. I despair for the future of Guyana.

Another good one, Zed.

Django posted:

Source

December 4,2017

Dear Editor,

 But in truth, the process has only highlighted yet again the sad fact that the Afro-PNC-ite and the Indo-PPP-ite do not care about the truth; they will support their ethnic party right or wrong. And that is the problem, and has always been the problem.

As a consequence, the parties are not pressured by their followers to do the right thing for the country or even for those followers. Because of the unquestioning, uncritical race-based support, the parties are not accountable to the country, and especially are not accountable to their own blind followers. The PNC-ites and PPP-ites support and have supported their ethnic party regardless of corruption, incompetence and outright illegality. They supported the PNC through years of electoral fraud and destruction of the economy, and they supported the PPP through years of financial corruption and association with criminals. Until we as a people finally realise that it is the two parties which have wrecked our country, and decide to eschew both parties, Guyana will continue to suffer. The fault lies with them.

Yours faithfully,

Timothy M. Jonas

So true.  The tribal drums were so loud that some folks even ran back to the PPP.

Lost in all of this is the fact that had we a proper constitution selecting those to manage the election process wouldn't be in the hands of politicians, and so no tainted lists or unilateral dismissal of such lists would have been possible.

Once again most Guyanese remain stooges in that footsie wootsie love game that Jagdeo and Granger play with each both. Neither having the smallest interest in developing a system of proper governance, beginning with a new constitution.

Zed posted:

I  The racism that exists among all groups in Guyana (Carib please note the date so you can remember), including the Indo Guyanese and Afro Guyanese  exacerbates the problem of governance, national identity and consciousness,  and progress in Guyana.

Get rid of that nonsense about blaming the British and the Americans. I am 60 and can barely remember the 60s.  I certainly wasn't old enough to have had a sophisticated analysis of this period.

Your average Guyanese voter is under 35.  They don't even know who Burnham is.

That there is still ethnic friction is because of Guyanese, as we have had long enough to grow out of whatever morass the British left us in.  There is almost no one alive who coherently knows what life in British Guiana was all about.  A mere 5% of the population is above 70.

When the PPP was marginalizing blacks NONE of you wanted to discuss this.  Some even disrespected blacks by screaming that they were benefitting from the PPP, when their own lived experienced suggested otherwise.  All who commented on this were branded as racists and some even faced death threats and other forms of intimidation.

Now you wail about what APNU might be doing to Indians, conveniently "forgetting" that all they do is indulge in the same pattern of ethnic exclusion which began under Cheddi, especially after 1961, continued under the PNC, then under the PPP and likely now continuing under the Coalition.

The only way to resolve the issue is to discuss it.  Africans and mixed Guyanese have a very different attitude towards ethnicity and nationality than do East Indians.  THAT is the root of our problem. 

If the Indian will always favor another Indian can a black person trust an Indian who is in a leadership position?  And yes Indian ethnic loyalty being greater than national loyalty, and their different notion of what being a Guyanese is, will definitely breed behavior that will contribute to a problem, even if unintended.

I have frequently repeated what I was told by a black taxi driver during the Jagdeo era when he stated that a LIAT flight with 40 passengers generated more opportunities for him than a plane arriving from Toronto with over 100 mainly Indians.  Do you think that this leads him to trust Indians?  When he displays hostility to Indians who he doesn't know why then be surprised?

I was told by a young black woman during the PPP era who was upset that us older blacks were so critical of Burnham.  All she knew (growing up after 1992) was being made a foreigner in her own land and so she saw the Burnham era as a period with apparent black "empowerment". 

There needs to be open and honest discussion about ethnic identity formation and how this impacts how various ethnic groups in Guyana view their nationhood and how they view other ethnic groups.

Look and see how salient the "Moses says he is not an Indian" was?  The reaction of Indians to this fed into the stereotype of the "clannish Indian" as did their boycott of every single national event which is held when the PPP is not in power.

Afro Guyanese have always participated in Guyanese national events without regard to which party is in power.  Indians seem unable to unless the PPP is in power. 

So I am NOT impressed with your passive acknowledgement of Indian racism because you still haven't demonstrated any interest in discussing how it manifests, how it impacts how Indians are perceived by others, especially blacks, and how this impacts overall ethnic insecurity factors in Guyana.

caribny posted:

Zed posted:

I  The racism that exists among all groups in Guyana (Carib please note the date so you can remember), including the Indo Guyanese and Afro Guyanese  exacerbates the problem of governance, national identity and consciousness,  and progress in Guyana.

Get rid of that nonsense about blaming the British and the Americans. I am 60 and can barely remember the 60s.  I certainly wasn't old enough to have had a sophisticated analysis of this period.

Your average Guyanese voter is under 35.  They don't even know who Burnham is.

That there is still ethnic friction is because of Guyanese, as we have had long enough to grow out of whatever morass the British left us in.  There is almost no one alive who coherently knows what life in British Guiana was all about.  A mere 5% of the population is above 70.

 

When the PPP was marginalizing blacks NONE of you wanted to discuss this.  Some even disrespected blacks by screaming that they were benefitting from the PPP, when their own lived experienced suggested otherwise.  All who commented on this were branded as racists and some even faced death threats and other forms of intimidation.

Now you wail about what APNU might be doing to Indians, conveniently "forgetting" that all they do is indulge in the same pattern of ethnic exclusion which began under Cheddi, especially after 1961, continued under the PNC, then under the PPP and likely now continuing under the Coalition.

The only way to resolve the issue is to discuss it.  Africans and mixed Guyanese have a very different attitude towards ethnicity and nationality than do East Indians.  THAT is the root of our problem. 

If the Indian will always favor another Indian can a black person trust an Indian who is in a leadership position?  And yes Indian ethnic loyalty being greater than national loyalty, and their different notion of what being a Guyanese is, will definitely breed behavior that will contribute to a problem, even if unintended.

I have frequently repeated what I was told by a black taxi driver during the Jagdeo era when he stated that a LIAT flight with 40 passengers generated more opportunities for him than a plane arriving from Toronto with over 100 mainly Indians.  Do you think that this leads him to trust Indians?  When he displays hostility to Indians who he doesn't know why then be surprised?

I was told by a young black woman during the PPP era who was upset that us older blacks were so critical of Burnham.  All she knew (growing up after 1992) was being made a foreigner in her own land and so she saw the Burnham era as a period with apparent black "empowerment". 

There needs to be open and honest discussion about ethnic identity formation and how this impacts how various ethnic groups in Guyana view their nationhood and how they view other ethnic groups.

Look and see how salient the "Moses says he is not an Indian" was?  The reaction of Indians to this fed into the stereotype of the "clannish Indian" as did their boycott of every single national event which is held when the PPP is not in power.

Afro Guyanese have always participated in Guyanese national events without regard to which party is in power.  Indians seem unable to unless the PPP is in power. 

So I am NOT impressed with your passive acknowledgement of Indian racism because you still haven't demonstrated any interest in discussing how it manifests, how it impacts how Indians are perceived by others, especially blacks, and how this impacts overall ethnic insecurity factors in Guyana.

I told you before that unlike you, I will not spend my time in exercises in futility. Look how many posts you and others have made arguing against the racism exhibited here but no one has been convinced by the arguments presented. 

You are looking at one side of a two headed coin and you seem to think that this is good argument or that it is the complete story or reality. What you are writing here is rife with racist stereotyping and racist coded nessages. Obviously viewed through your ethnic lens.

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

Zed posted:

I told you before that unlike you, I will not spend my time in exercises in futility. Look how many posts you and others have made arguing against the racism exhibited here but no one has been convinced by the arguments presented. 

You are looking at one side of a two headed coin and you seem to think that this is good argument or that it is the complete story or reality. What you are writing here is rife with racist stereotyping and racist coded nessages. Obviously viewed through your ethnic lens.

I focus on the Indian side because the African racism, usually described as violence towards Indians. has been discussed endlessly.  Just a few days ago you were screaming about how blacks were chasing you out of Guyana.

Of course when you blamed blacks for this you didn't see that as one sided or racist stereotyping.  You didn't attempt to balance discussion of these black attitudes to you with Indian attitudes to them.

I note the date Zed. On December 4th you ONCE AGAIN refuse to discuss the Indian role in racism in Guyana, even as a few days ago you ranted about how suddenly racism (from blacks of course) was making life hard for you.

So Zed continue to peddle the narrative of the violent and racist African and I will remind you of the ethnocentric and racist Indian.  Two sides of the coin, but you don't want the Indian side discussed.

Zed posted:

 Obviously viewed through your ethnic lens.

This of course being a demonstration of the ethnocentricity of the Indian.  You cannot even begin to see how Indian behavior towards others influences how they are viewed.  

Here is the deal. Indo Guyanese view themselves primarily as Indians who are born in Guyana. An embracing of a collective Guyanese identity, besides a passport and a birth certificate, is not a typical Indian attitude.

 Indians do not participate in any Guyanese event unless it is dominated by an Indian entity.  This has been experienced by many Afro Guyanese led groups in NYC as they seek to involve Indians but then are rebuffed.  This was quite evident in the Jubilee celebrations last year and it has stimulated quite a few FB discussions.  The Guyana Folk Festival was rebuffed as have many alumni groups.

Yet when Guyana Day was sponsored by an Indian dominated group meeting at York College a high % of the audience were Afro Guyanese.

You see Afro Guyanese can more easily embrace a concept of a culturally diverse Guyana than can Indians.  Just look at the attitude towards the dougla demonstrated by blacks and by Indians.

So you can scream and wail that any discussion of Indian racism is taboo, but then don't wail and scream when many blacks see you walking by and think "there goes the enemy".   

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

Looks like he and Carib were up all night flying the PNC flag.  These guys need help.

You are not in Guyana so cannot see abpbd experience what u see and experience every day that I am in Guyana. You cannot see the rich diversity of interaction that occurs among the different ethnic groups in Guyana on a daily basis. You left Guyana a long time ago so have a warped notion of what really happens. I tell you, visit Guyana and become educated. You believe what fits into your racist stereotype of both Indo Guyanese and their daily interaction.

I cannot comment on what happens in The USA. Some might argue that Afro Guyanese do not attend functions organized by Indo Guyanese.

caribny posted:

So you can scream and wail that any discussion of Indian racism is taboo, but then don't wail and scream when many blacks see you walking by and think "there goes the enemy".  

.you are making up these as you go along so that you can build your narrative. Where did I state  that any discussion of Indian racism is taboo? Please reread what was state in my post, that such a discussion here is an exercise in futility. Read and comprehend! 

So many blacks see Indo Guyanese as the enemy! No wonder they seek to dehumanized them as you have done in your first response to my post. You are a racist!

caribny posted:

Zed posted:

 Obviously viewed through your ethnic lens.

This of course being a demonstration of the ethnocentricity of the Indian.  You cannot even begin to see how Indian behavior towards others influences how they are viewed.  

Here is the deal. Indo Guyanese view themselves primarily as Indians who are born in Guyana. An embracing of a collective Guyanese identity, besides a passport and a birth certificate, is not a typical Indian attitude.

 Indians do not participate in any Guyanese event unless it is dominated by an Indian entity.  This has been experienced by many Afro Guyanese led groups in NYC as they seek to involve Indians but then are rebuffed.  This was quite evident in the Jubilee celebrations last year and it has stimulated quite a few FB discussions.  The Guyana Folk Festival was rebuffed as have many alumni groups.

Yet when Guyana Day was sponsored by an Indian dominated group meeting at York College a high % of the audience were Afro Guyanese.

You see Afro Guyanese can more easily embrace a concept of a culturally diverse Guyana than can Indians.  Just look at the attitude towards the dougla demonstrated by blacks and by Indians.

When last have you attended Mash in Guyana? how about Easter or Christmas? How about the 50 th.  independence celebrations? When last have you have a discussion in Guyana regrding cricket and who people support? When last have you attended a  national function in Guyana?

you talk about the ethnocentrism of Indo Guyanese butt then point to the growing mixed population. Many of these is a result of Indo and Afro Guyanese mixed relationships. How does this happen in your indo ethnocentric argument?

No matter how much you try to deny it. You accuse me of using coded words but instead they come from you as you spill your racist diatribe!

the questionsI have for you are these. Let's assume that you are correct in stating that Indo guyanese do not have a sense national identity, why is this? What creates a sense if national identity and how was this manifested in the everyday lives of a Indo Guyanese since their arrival in Guyana? How do stories of elders create or are narratives? Why cannot someone see himself or herself as Indian (in whatever ways he or she defines it to be) and not be Guyanese concurrently.? Does the same apply to the renewed sense of being African demonstrated by Afro Guyanese? 

You are a racist! You ascribe to others the beliefs you deeply hold and they are manifested in what you post! 

caribny posted:

Zed posted:

I told you before that unlike you, I will not spend my time in exercises in futility. Look how many posts you and others have made arguing against the racism exhibited here but no one has been convinced by the arguments presented. 

You are looking at one side of a two headed coin and you seem to think that this is good argument or that it is the complete story or reality. What you are writing here is rife with racist stereotyping and racist coded nessages. Obviously viewed through your ethnic lens.

 

I focus on the Indian side because the African racism, usually described as violence towards Indians. has been discussed endlessly.  Just a few days ago you were screaming about how blacks were chasing you out of Guyana.

Of course when you blamed blacks for this you didn't see that as one sided or racist stereotyping.  You didn't attempt to balance discussion of these black attitudes to you with Indian attitudes to them.

I note the date Zed. On December 4th you ONCE AGAIN refuse to discuss the Indian role in racism in Guyana, even as a few days ago you ranted about how suddenly racism (from blacks of course) was making life hard for you.

So Zed continue to peddle the narrative of the violent and racist African and I will remind you of the ethnocentric and racist Indian.  Two sides of the coin, but you don't want the Indian side discussed.

Organized violence towards Indo Guyanese  have been documented. Yes. There have been violence by Indo Guyanese against Afro Guyanese, but these have been tit for tat, as far as I know. I lived on the Essequibo Coast where none of that occurred. 

Again I reiterate that I do not spend my time in exercises in futility, that my time is better spent on the grounded in Guyana. But you fail to read and understand what I have stated to you several times because you cannit  make it fit into yiur racist narrative. On that date, I mentioned that racism existed in al, groups in Guyana! Read and understand! 

Pleaee tell me where I have peddled the narrative of the violent and racist argument. I made one comment on being the subject of hostility which might  force us to curtail our activities in Guyana. It is instructive for me that this occurred in a village where we currently have a project involving many underpriveled kids. 

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

Gilly,i am gud bhai,they say ole USA never sleeps,there is no specific bed time.

Are you defending that rubbish that yugi post ?

Where does his post fit in the conversation.

Django posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

Gilly,i am gud bhai,they say ole USA never sleeps,there is no specific bed time.

Are you defending that rubbish that yugi post ?

Where does his post fit in the conversation.

Glad to hear you're 'gud'.

I read Timothy's letter and I think that he attacked the PPP on wrong grounds. I don't believe race played a role in Jagdeo's 18 names, 6 [33.3%] of whom were not Indians. So, yuji22 has every right to express his disagreement with Timothy. As you know, yuji and I have different methods of wording our argumentation. I would have crafted my response with different language.

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

What! 2.15 am in the morning,I told him umpteen times, Get a Life, he is stalking GNI 24 hours a day. PNC really keeping him busy, no rest for the devil. I can see his energy going towards Dr Jagdeo, but now after Yuji22, poor pundit.

Gilbakka posted:

 

I read Timothy's letter and I think that he attacked the PPP on wrong grounds. I don't believe race played a role in Jagdeo's 18 names, 6 [33.3%] of whom were not Indians. So, yuji22 has every right to express his disagreement with Timothy. As you know, yuji and I have different methods of wording our argumentation. I would have crafted my response with different language.

Why not ?? East Indians are majority in Guyana,but that number is 39.83 % of the population.

Both PPP and PNC are guilty of using the race,when selecting persons for office.

kp posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

The clown Timothy should not attempt to rub PNC filth on the PPP. Who is he trying to fool ? 

Yes, the PNC is filth and they cannot even build a toilet.

How did you feel when pressing the enter button,without taking a second look...elated!!

Unfortunately lacking to comprehend what Tmothy said in his letter,exposes your foolishness.

Further the coded message in your post is to demean Afro Guyanese.

It's now 7:15AM. I just woke up and checked in here. I see that Django posted the comment above 5 hours ago. RASS, at 2:15AM or thereabouts Django quarreling with yuji22. I'm sure yuji was fast asleep like me at that time. Is Django suffering from insomnia? If so, tek appropriate treatment and don't tek it out on yuji. THAT could have waited till daybreak.

What! 2.15 am in the morning,I told him umpteen times, Get a Life, he is stalking GNI 24 hours a day. PNC really keeping him busy, no rest for the devil. I can see his energy going towards Dr Jagdeo, but now after Yuji22, poor pundit.

Oye watch it i got a good life,7 hrs of sleep good for me,no specific time when to hit the sack.

Why the r@ss you addressing that fella as Dr.,who you trying to fool.