Fidel's Last Ride

Look how pragmatic the Vietnamese and Chinese have been and how successful they have become.  Cuba and North Korea have not been able to prosper because of their refusal to acknowledge that their economic system is inefficient. Cuba needs to break with the past and reform the economy.  Human rights is a big issue as well as democracy.  

Nehru posted:

Bhai, I am not in agreement with that. I would rather see people stand up and be counted. As Malcolm said " By any means necessary"

Nehru if you like paying, bribing and praying to Guyanese Africans for your survival and your human rights in Guyana to be respected then by all means be my guest. But this koolie here refuse to bow to terror and racial hate. The only way out for the East Indian people of Guyana is to have an independent sovereign country with their own army and  various mechanisms in place  to protect our people on the South American continent . Anything less than that is a waste of time and resources.

Prashad posted:
Nehru posted:

Bhai, I am not in agreement with that. I would rather see people stand up and be counted. As Malcolm said " By any means necessary"

Nehru if you like paying, bribing and praying to Guyanese Africans for your survival and your human rights in Guyana to be respected then by all means be my guest. But this koolie here refuse to bow to terror and racial hate. The only way out for the East Indian people of Guyana is to have an independent sovereign country with their own army and  various mechanisms in place  to protect our people on the South American continent . Anything less than that is a waste of time and resources.

Don't you get tired of repeating the same shit over and over?

Gilbakka posted:
. Cheddi was a virile man in his youth, but a one-woman man.

Rumor has it that Burnham also used to share his duties to Janet. Not in the marital bed. At the seawall.  This is why Burnham is Joey's godfather. For a while there Janet was worried that he might have been the actual father.

skeldon_man posted:
Prashad posted:

You are entitled to your opinion Mars. Prashad believes in democracy.

Mars believes in PNC dictatorship..grainjaw and assoc.

Mars will never be a fan of dictators. The PPP was hugging up the Dictator Burnham for years and conning y'all fools. Giving him Critical Support and trying to form a National Front government with the PNC. Dictators like Castro are y'all best friends.

It is not a matter of if. It is just a matter of when Guyanese East Indians douglas who embrace their Indian heritage and allies of the Guyanese East Indian people get their own independent sovereign country. When that day happens I hope that they chose a scandinavian model of democracy and a free society.

 

Prashad posted:

It is not a matter of if. It is just a matter of when Guyanese East Indians douglas who embrace their Indian heritage and allies of the Guyanese East Indian people get their own independent sovereign country. When that day happens I hope that they chose a scandinavian model of democracy and a free society.

 

OK. Your wife yelled and you again and banished you to your man cave, so now you engage in creating a magic world where only Indians will be allowed.

Your wife done tell you that she en gun live in no coolie country.

Carib I love my wife that is something I have no apologies for. It is foolishness to believe that African Guyanese who have fought for the last 400 years for the right to be ruled by their own people will just somehow accept an East Indian ruling over them. 

Prashad posted:

Carib I love my wife that is something I have no apologies for. It is foolishness to believe that African Guyanese who have fought for the last 400 years for the right to be ruled by their own people will just somehow accept an East Indian ruling over them. 

Here is what a major Portuguese businessman, who shows no love for blacks, as he hires few of them said.

Africans want fairness.  If they feel that they will be treated fairly they don't care who rules.  In 1953 they went to vote for Cheddi.  Cheddi is NOT an African.

Indians don't want "to be ruled by black man".  They will tolerate any misrule provided that "they aren't being ruled by black man".

You cannot mention even ONE instance when more than 10% of Indians have supported a non Indian.  In 1953 Africans voted for an Indian, even though John Carter, a man of part African ancestry, and who led a black identified party.  I will remind you that the League of Colored People, was an organization that aimed to improve the lot of Afro Guyanese.  In 1953 the UDP, an affiliate organization, contested in the elections. Afro Guyanese instead voted for Cheddi.

Feel free to attempt to justify Indian clannishness by pretending that an equivalent African clannishness exists.

The UDP was seen by the majority of Africans in British Guiana as representing the red man while the PPP at that time had brilliant African Guyanese. That is why without the cream of African Guyanese in the PPP in the 1960s there were few Africans supporting them.

Churchill posted:
Leonora posted:

Gil and Churchill should have attended the funeral. Did Guyana send any representatives?

The official Guyana representatives were PM Nagamootoo and Chief PPP whip Gail Texiera....

I was invited by  Cuban friends to attend but circumstances prevented me from doing so at this time ...Will be there for the New Year celebrations .....

Halim reuniting with his old comrades.

Prashad posted:

I will repeat it until I take my last breath so that every East Indian child and every dougla child in Guyana can repeat it word for word.

Now why de rass you want waste other people dem time by having dem, like you, repeating shyte and never having anything come of it.

Yesterday afternoon, December 1, the funeral procession reached the province of Camagüey, crossing the fertile plains of this region to receive a moving salute from the population along the Central Highway, and during an evening vigil in the capital city's Ignacio Agramonte Plaza de la Revolución.

Cortejo

SOURCE: GRANMA

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Look how pragmatic the Vietnamese and Chinese have been and how successful they have become.  Cuba and North Korea have not been able to prosper because of their refusal to acknowledge that their economic system is inefficient. Cuba needs to break with the past and reform the economy.  Human rights is a big issue as well as democracy.  

Ever heard about embargo my friend?  Why is it as an American I cannot be allowed to visit?  I thought we had freedom of travel here.

VVP posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Look how pragmatic the Vietnamese and Chinese have been and how successful they have become.  Cuba and North Korea have not been able to prosper because of their refusal to acknowledge that their economic system is inefficient. Cuba needs to break with the past and reform the economy.  Human rights is a big issue as well as democracy.  

Ever heard about embargo my friend?  Why is it as an American I cannot be allowed to visit?  I thought we had freedom of travel here.

The embargo has taken a major toll on Cuba's economy.  There is no doubt about that. The US have had terrible relationship with many countries in this hemisphere going back to the last two hundred years, but none has been this nasty for so long.  I would say the US needs to stop pressuring this country to submit to its whims and wishes.  Cuba should also make meaningful changes that will bring more freedoms to the Cuban people and  benefits to the economy. Cuba has been punished unfairly not necessarily because of its ideology and undemocratic rule - Cuba has been paying price for successfully defying the U.S. by thwarting every effort by the CIA to remove Castro.  Many observers believe the US had no interest in democraticizing Cuba as was the case with Nicaragua under the Somoza Dynasty. The very attempt to topple Castro in 1961 indicated to the Cubans that the use was not interested in removing Fidel by elections but a fast Latin type coup and end of story. The Jagan gov't was brought down by the longest general strike in world history.  They even confessed it was the most inexpensive operation the CIA ever carried out in removing a national gov't.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

The embargo has taken a major toll on Cuba's economy.  

This is why even though the people in Cuba are relatively poor they are content because they understand the effects of the embargo.  Cuba needs free elections but the US needs to keep it hands out.  It not like Cuba is involved in drug running. 

Nicaragua was a pain in the US side but it looks like Ortega has been winning free elections for the past decade.  Let the people decide!

 

VVP posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

The embargo has taken a major toll on Cuba's economy.  

This is why even though the people in Cuba are relatively poor they are content because they understand the effects of the embargo.  Cuba needs free elections but the US needs to keep it hands out.  It not like Cuba is involved in drug running. 

Nicaragua was a pain in the US side but it looks like Ortega has been winning free elections for the past decade.  Let the people decide!

 

Knowing how much they hate Fidel if they have to spend US$1 billion to remove him in free elections they would.  The Cubans know this. Free elections in Cuba involving Fidel would resulted in so much intervention by the Americans that it would risk a major internal conflict.

A cuban American told me that he was arrested and sent to prison for putting up an antenna in his yard to catch American radio stations so that he can listen to American music. His neighbours had reported him to the authorities. Not even Burnham ever did that.

Prashad posted:

A cuban American told me that he was arrested and sent to prison for putting up an antenna in his yard to catch American radio stations so that he can listen to American music. His neighbours had reported him to the authorities. Not even Burnham ever did that.

And Burnham never banned people from travelling to Cuba also.  See Burnham was better than the US 

Prashad posted:

The UDP was seen by the majority of Africans in British Guiana as representing the red man while the PPP at that time had brilliant African Guyanese. That is why without the cream of African Guyanese in the PPP in the 1960s there were few Africans supporting them.

Just about every black person has a red person in their family and there is virtually no cultural difference.  A red man is a light skinned black man.  In fact no one can tell you at what point one is not black, but red instead.  Some will call Granger red, but he calls himself black, while the darker Trotman calls himself mixed.

Just accept the fact.  Blacks will sooner accept an Indian leader if they think that they will be fair than an Indian will accept a black leader.

Indians have yet to prove that they will select a black leader over an Indian one, so the notion that Indians view black voting patterns as more racist is a big joke.

VVP posted:
Prashad posted:

A cuban American told me that he was arrested and sent to prison for putting up an antenna in his yard to catch American radio stations so that he can listen to American music. His neighbours had reported him to the authorities. Not even Burnham ever did that.

And Burnham never banned people from travelling to Cuba also.  See Burnham was better than the US 

Castro was a far more brutal dictator than Burnham.

1. Burnham allowed elections, even though he rigged them massively.  So this allowed a framework for an opposition party to exist and to be quite vocal.

2. Castro arrests all his opponents, and up to the 70s sent many to firing squad.  Had Burnham been like Castro Janet would have been a dead woman.

3.  Even though Burnham did make life difficult for opposition media, by denying them access to print and paper these papers were sold openly in Guyana.  Stabroek News, Catholic Standard, and Caribbean Contact were very popular as was Radio Antilles.  Clearly only senior civil servants were punished for accessing those media outlets.

3. Burnham never prevents ordinary people from leaving.  In fact it was mainly senior black officials, who fell out with him, who he sought to punish by denying them the ability to leave, and in fact many eventually were able to go.

4.  Burnham harassed the private sector, but didn't prevent it from operating.  Now that Castro "opened" the economy Cuba is now like what Guyana was during the worst of Burnham.

Those who praise Castro and cuss Burnham are hypocrites.  They were both dictators with huge egos.  Castro was a good deal more efficient and ruthless in persecuting those who he didn't like than Burnham was. He never set up those busy body neighborhood spy groups that Castro did.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:
. The Cubans know this. Free elections in Cuba involving Fidel would resulted in so much intervention by the Americans that it would risk a major internal conflict.

Do you know that Burnham used the same excuse for rigging?

Dictators always justify their brutality.

Who is Castro to decide who the ordinary Cubans will vote for? If Castro was doing good than he would have won.  The problem was that he knew full well that he wasn't, and that many think that he has destroyed the country.

In fact Maurice Bishop was planning to hold elections in Grenada, wanting to be known as a legitimate leader. Castro ordered goons within his party to kill him.  Note that Bishop was killed by HIS fellow party members. NOT by the US forces which intervened as Grenada fell into a blood bath with Grenadian soldiers shooting their own people, including Bishop, in cold blood.

THAT is Fidel Castro.  Had the PPP won he would have ordered Cheddi to eliminate his opposition, and Cheddi would have eagerly complied.

In fact when Bouterse saw what Castro did in Grenada he immediately ordered them out of Suriname, fearing a similar fate.

VVP posted:
caribny posted:

In fact Maurice Bishop was planning to hold elections in Grenada, wanting to be known as a legitimate leader. Castro ordered goons within his party to kill him.  

Another fact straight from the sluice hole.

This is a known fact, but the little communist that you are will deny this.

FACT.

1. The USA said that it will recognize the Bishop administration if it held elections.  Bishop decided to do so.

2. Hardliners in the NJM movement aligned with Castro objected, on the instructions from Castro.

3. Bishop knew that most Grenadians had benefitted, and was confident of victory.

4.  The hardliners than moved to eliminate him, as they knew that Bishop, and not them were popular.

5. When they shot and killed Bishop in cold blood, Grenadians staged street marches.  The hardliners shot and killed people in cold blood and staged a curfew.

6. When the US invaded, the majority of Grenadians welcomed them.  Had the US invaded with Bishop in power they would have rejected them. 

Now continue with your Nancy story that Castro didn't have anything to do with events in Grenada.  In fact when the US invaded it was the Cubans and not Grenadians, who were shooting back!

VVP posted:

Show me where Castro supported Bernard Coard over Maurice Bishop?  Where is that document even if it is propaganda.

This is a well known fact.  If you don't know that is really your issue.

FACT. Bouterse tossed the Cubans out of Suriname when he saw happened to Bishop.

caribny posted:
VVP posted:

Show me where Castro supported Bernard Coard over Maurice Bishop?  Where is that document even if it is propaganda.

This is a well known fact.  If you don't know that is really your issue.

 

Like I said straight from the hole.

caribny posted:
Prashad posted:

The UDP was seen by the majority of Africans in British Guiana as representing the red man while the PPP at that time had brilliant African Guyanese. That is why without the cream of African Guyanese in the PPP in the 1960s there were few Africans supporting them.

Just about every black person has a red person in their family and there is virtually no cultural difference.  A red man is a light skinned black man.  In fact no one can tell you at what point one is not black, but red instead.  Some will call Granger red, but he calls himself black, while the darker Trotman calls himself mixed.

Just accept the fact.  Blacks will sooner accept an Indian leader if they think that they will be fair than an Indian will accept a black leader.

Indians have yet to prove that they will select a black leader over an Indian one, so the notion that Indians view black voting patterns as more racist is a big joke.

The fact that the carib is on here every day bashing East Indians clearly illustrates my point. Folks, the carib does not like a koolie ruling over Africans. He is a product of 400 years of the African fight to be ruled by Africans.

Prashad posted:
.

The fact that the carib is on here every day bashing East Indians clearly illustrates my point. Folks, the carib does not like a koolie ruling over Africans. He is a product of 400 years of the African fight to be ruled by Africans.

So what do I say about Indians that is bad.

Compare that to others who brand blacks as lazy, useless, criminal and incompetent.

In fact you consider creole culture to be a degraded culture created by criminals.  Of course you than marry a creole woman.

The state that you are in due to your fear of your creole wife is truly pitiable.  I bet that you have yet to tell her that you want your kids to have nothing to do with her culture!

VVP posted:

Show me where Castro supported Bernard Coard over Maurice Bishop?  Where is that document even if it is propaganda.

A few months before Maurice Bishop's untimely death, during discussions at Freedom House, some senior PPP members had expressed the view that Bernard Coard was more Marxist-Leninist than Bishop. When Bishop was killed on October 19, 1983, the pro-Coard PPPites shut up tight. The next morning I went to Freedom House to wish Janet Jagan a happy birthday. She told me: "This is the worse day of my life."

I think it's a stretch to say that Fidel had a hand in Bishop's death. Everything I've read about the events on October 19 tells me that things got out of control and Coard and Hudson-Austin just lost their power-drunk minds.

Gilbakka posted:
VVP posted:

Show me where Castro supported Bernard Coard over Maurice Bishop?  Where is that document even if it is propaganda.

A few months before Maurice Bishop's untimely death, during discussions at Freedom House, some senior PPP members had expressed the view that Bernard Coard was more Marxist-Leninist than Bishop. When Bishop was killed on October 19, 1983, the pro-Coard PPPites shut up tight. The next morning I went to Freedom House to wish Janet Jagan a happy birthday. She told me: "This is the worse day of my life."

I think it's a stretch to say that Fidel had a hand in Bishop's death. Everything I've read about the events on October 19 tells me that things got out of control and Coard and Hudson-Austin just lost their power-drunk minds.

It was in fact the popularity of Maurice Bishop that protected the NJM in the minds of the Grenadian people, many of whom were ambivalent about Castro and Cuba.

It is the very Marxist Leninist orientation of Coard that led him to adopt a more Castroite view of the world and reject Bishop, who wanted a more Manley type of governance. Bishop was a social democrat in the way that Manley and Trudeau were. 

Bishop was also wanting to reduce the presence in Grenada of the Cuban army officials, once the airport was completed. 

When Bishop began moving to elections, confident that he would win Castro was NOT amused, given that he had rejected similar demands.  He urged Coard to rid Grenada of Bishop.  He promised them support if ridding Grenada resulted in open intervention by the USA. While Reagan reluctantly tolerated Bishop he was NOT going to tolerate a 2nd Soviet satellite in the Caribbean.

On the basis of this promise of protection and a fear of a democratic win solidifying Bishop's legitimacy in the eyes of the world Coard and others acted. And the rest is history.

When Grenadians went to rescue the very popular Maurice Bishop from jail they were shot down in the streets and a 24 hour curfew was immediately put in place with those not complying, being shot on the spot. Grenadians, not being accustomed to this, even under the dictator Gairy, begged for outside help. 

Where were the many Cuban soldiers present at that time on the island? Protecting Coard and company, as Castro promised that they would do.

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