Indeed Cain. It was all about economics and opportunities. No one leaving Guyana expected that they should relinquish their Guyanese culture or identity. That is why we are still on a Guyanese message board. Similarly none of the many Americans who follow the money to the Middle East ever integrate into those societies. Therefore it is malicious for those who hate Muslims to insist that Muslims relinquish their culture and practices.

No doubt. And some time in the future, the actions of these militant Muslims will also be history. Those societies were equally as violent and back then, they had the blessings of Pope Urban. Which world Muslim leader is blessing these militant Muslims actions?

Actually, I say things of Jesus to get folks like Sagga Boy thinking. In fact, I use passages from the Bible to point out that Jesus is a bigot and racist. I can't do that with the Qur'an because the Qur'an has only wonderful things to say about Jesus. Indeed, the Qur'an even vindicated Mary who some Jewish accused of having sex with a Roman soldier thereby bring forth Jesus. People who think that Muslims don't like Jesus obviously never read the Qur'an. 

Cain, what do you think of that shock and awe treatment that we put on Iraq? Was it violent or was it like music to the ears of those Iraqi men, women and children?

And even then you wouldn't be satisfied my friend.

"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion." Qur'an 2:120

Cain, you would be fooling yourself if you think that Muslims are f'dup. Do yourself a favor and youtube some debates between Muslims and Christians and see who makes more sense. Go look at how Deedat made the likes of Swaggart wish he was not having that debate with Deedat. And while you are at it, check out some more. Actually, Christian leaders are glad that these militant Muslims are distracting their congregation from hearing from Muslim scholars. Like Muhammad said, "the pen is mightier than the sword". Do yourself that favor. You are not coming off too rational right now bai.

I do not care to argue the legalities of the appropriateness of the action because if you care you could look it up. I posted that the Chaudry group is doing in Luton and your response was they are not Muslims. Yes it is illegal and yes the police are on the job except they were in persuasive mode until this last incident where the now began to kick asses. In Belgium, the case was the similar.

Jindal is doing what he always does. Taking a far right side to the problem. 

Here is a teaser.

Part 2. Hilarious. Yeah right, Muslims can't think for themselves. Don't miss this part.

Everywhere there is a Muslim the chime goes up that we are converting the world. Meanwhile the statistics stays the same. I do not know or care to know who  Geller is. If you focus on one person what is the problem with 16 million sunnis who tolerate ISIS and is the reason they persist. What do you say about another 10 million Pakis who live in another world that locates itself some where in the 14 century or the Afgans who concern themselves with making door mats of their women.

It is a lack of centralizing creed that speaks to what is a muslim. The religion is suffering the same disease that afflicted the warring Christian states of the 16th, 17th and 18th century only this time it is in the modern world. Either they solve it themselves or they will be ostracized.

That you sit here and find all the excuse in the world for the awful condition of the muslim world and leans outside their own confusion about faith and to the west as the problem is the problem. The west is the only group that sent soldiers to save the Bosnian etc from the Serbs. Not even Muslims cared to come. It is the west that is complaining that china is suppressing 10 million Chinese Muslims. There is not a squeak from traditional muslim states. But in the end, it is the west that Muslims claim for the ignorance of their backward clans.

Every brown person suffers because of these asses. I used to run to the airport, buy a one way $99 ticket to England  Friday afternoon. That can never happen. One cannot go on Amtrak without a scan. It is these obscenely backward religious freaks for whom no excuse will serve that has made our world t he way it is. Yes, we have a muslim problem!

First, I never said that these are not Muslims so you have the wrong person. My question is specific to your earlier post that extremists are interfering with citizens movements. Are any Muslim in Luton being charged with interfering with the movements of citizens? Yes or no.

Many of those countries have capable governments which we either removed or conspired to topple. Now we conveniently want to put that burden on the helpless people over there. Iraq was a self sufficient country that has become a safe harbor for terrorists because we removed the government that was maintaining law and order. Similar in other places.

Straight up the kind of bullshit that says you people are nuts. The bible is a life lived. It has archaeology. It is the historicity of a people. It is not some supreme pristine example of divine wisdom but the expression of wisdom of god abstracted from lives of  people ( claiming to know a god) as they lived through him.

The Koran is prescriptions. It is a mishmash of sayings clearly relating to no history but taking from history. It has no living ground only what is supposedly said by Mohamed of lives lived and documented elsewhere as he sat 20 years in a cave with the entire pantheon of judeo christian legacy to inform his process.

The above is what causes people to falsely believe they have the authority to take the words verbatim because all others do not count. A bunch of *******s chanting and prognosticating on 3000 years of living history and discounting on it for their own imaginary crap.

Obviously the Christian priests and evangelists including Doctors of Divinity who participate in these debates don't agree with you. This Christian who spends tons of hours on TBN found it worthwhile to participate.

Lets be real. The west created those countries out of air in the first place. It toppled them because they did not follow the plan. That they had a right not to follow the plan is of that era of powerful states and clans designing the world. That is the legacy.

Iraq was a cruel state out of am 8 years war with Iran with over a million dead. It's leader was  a serial killer who murdered his predecessor and his entire crew one fateful afternoon. He proceeded to carve out a political life via fear and oppression of its Shia clans and murdered another 250 thousand Swamp arabs via systematic draining of their swamp homes.One does not even have to mention the pain he inflicted on the Kurds. You can check that out if you care to see what mustard gas do to babies.

In the end he could not pay his bills despite having an endless spigot of oil at favorable prices on the world marked. Then he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi. What peaceful stable place you are talking about?

The Qur'an may be mishmash, yet it stands pristine amongst other religious documents. Notice Stormy how people scared to take the test? I have already demonstrated how those other books are not as you advertised them.

Do you realize that you just spoke from both sides of your mouth?

You babble of these dabates as if they are the ground of everything. You have a legacy of the early church fathers whose writings and arguments among themselves filling libraries. You have numerous councils from Nicea in 324 all debating the faith so why should I listen to these fools who only care to point to supposed dubious points for self aggrandizement. You have giants like Augustine and Aquinas hundreds of other examining the theology over history. You have the sincere Luther, austere Calvin, and the redoubtable knox on whose legacy we have much of the enlightenment creed and yet Christianity lacks scholars and await these vainglorious cretins to point to its inadequacies!

The fact remains, one existed over a thousand years before the other and is living history covering twice that period  warts and all. The other is the creation of one man with his supposed divine revelation and he might as well be ron Hubbard of Scientology and one would not know a difference except we know for sure the other created a religion that thousands believe in.

To you with the idea that the world is black and white it may be so. It is a mutable space with hapless humans crafting its reality our of their pride an prejudices and vast imagination. 

I love the part of Muhammad sitting in a cave for 20 years. If that does not reek of bigotry, what does? Here is what some non-Muslims say about how that man spent his 20 years in a cave.

What non-Muslim scholars said about Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)

Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”

M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924

Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay  - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54:

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."

Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."

Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."

James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70:

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'

"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"

Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."

Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “

Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“how one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades?” “…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."

Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”

George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936.

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness. I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity. I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

Correction. I don't see the world as black and white. That is the exactly why I am on this topic. I see people like Jindal as wanting black or white. As Bush said, either you are with us or against us. I live in a world of different people and things. I don't care to be like Jindal or the militant Muslims. 

 I am not a zealot do I will not concur with your opinion of pristine. I would spend any afternoon reading brothers Karamazov, or Keats or even Kant  any day over reading that tedious book. Indeed, the bible is delightful reading compared to it. And I am happy I live in the west where I can say that without someone wanting my head.

ISIS, Taliban, Al Quaeda are all the byproducts of Western politics, greed and avarice.

After the CIA staged a coup in Iran, and installed the Shah, the roots of Muslin extremism was born. Bush destroyed Iraq, the US and Israel wanted Syria destroyed....and ISIS appeared!

if you want to cast blame for what's going on today, try blaming the correct party.

I figure someone would end up blaming the US....

Anyone with a brain would. Bush didn't see it coming of course

Jindal may be a nut case but he is not seeking to create paradise on earth with only sanctified theologically complaint people ( per some holy writ) living in it. Bush was speaking about the western tradition. I agree that either you agree with its fundamental precepts or you do not. He felt he needed to go into Iraq and we may disagree but the same thing is happening now. The debate now is about going back there and all across the region with massive killing force to sanitize it of its its ISIS, Al Noustra etc perversion and that is clearly an inevitability. Note, the Nazis did not start out half as cruel as these creeps and they are getting desperate as resources are depleted and they may want to step on Jordan and Israel and Lebanon and then the west is coming in with so much fire power disinfectant it will transform or be recolonized. What is happening there has to stop.

You live in a Muslim world where confused Christians believing in a horribly deficient book exist and where they must be taught that they believe in a god that never was. Alas, Christians do not need Muslims to tell them what god to worship! They are secure as anyone else.

that is what you tell yourself without taking into account the internecine between the factions beginning with the fourth Calif.  Blaming the west wont make a difference.

I can name you a similar amount who think the faith is crap and that will not settle the question.

What is bigotry...that I tell you what I believe? I think he was a master forger no less than I think Christianity is a mainly a Pauline creation. You can take that any way. I remember bonus calling be a bigot for stating t he latter but It is what I believe.

No body is begging you to read the Qur'an. Your burden comes when you claim that the other books are more superior. At that point you retreat only at the expense of your own character. While you can have it both ways, you cannot also influence my opinion of it.

Regardless. We removed the law and order. We are responsible for that. Criminals have taken over because we used illegal force to remove that law and order.

You are sadly mistaken if you think I think that Christians or anyone else MUST be taught anything. I don't even teach my children anything. As luck would have it they are bright and are doing fine on their own especially since we live in a home free of pressure.   

You are free to list your source when ever you wish Stormy. Those are not ordinary people in that list above so you better come good.

I don't label you as bigoted for stating your objections for Islam. It is your shallow arguments and wandering all over the place that gets my attention.

Maybe Christians should also accept that Muslims don't need them to tell them what God to worship. I remember the Southern Baptists enlisting themselves at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq so they can Christianize the new nation. Wonder if Cain found anything wrong with the Southern Baptists blessing that violent invasion.

Oh boy..........here we go...

Cain man, Here is another example of those Muslims who can't think for themselves.

Yes Kari, the Muslims walking hand in hand with placards saying down with ISIS and those intent on causing disruption would be seen by the rest of the world as a positive move.

Quoting any holy book means nothing to me, absolutely nothing, it's all shit to me, all of it. Yes, it's men (how come no women wrote in any of these books or did I miss that?) from the past writing their experiences but why the hell am I to follow their writings when they were all just as or worse than I?

Great movie to go see...American Sniper

"That you sit here and find all the excuse in the world for the awful condition of the muslim world and leans outside their own confusion about faith and to the west as the problem is the problem. The west is the only group that sent soldiers to save the Bosnian etc from the Serbs. Not even Muslims cared to come. It is the west that is complaining that china is suppressing 10 million Chinese Muslims. There is not a squeak from traditional muslim states. But in the end, it is the west that Muslims claim for the ignorance of their backward clans.

Every brown person suffers because of these asses."

Oi Kaz, this is good. 

I never said one is superior to another. I am clear both are fiction. I am also clear that one has stories with a beginning, a middle and an end and is located in place and time with real people. It is the God part in the equation that I take with a grain of salt.

The other is a mishmash of truncated stories clearly cobbled together for a purpose. It is located in the imagination of one man and crafted by his carious associates as he narrated the text as the story goes. Its only reference in space and time is that it presumptuously appropriate  the previous legacy as its context and purport create the definitive text, correcting them in the process! Nice story about its creation and maybe the best story surrounding it.

As I told you previously, I like good stories and and formulaic writing to convey theology or ideology is not my bag of tea.

I also care little about what you believe if it is to fabricate a pristind theology written in a perfect language and with universal cadence that resonates with the harmony of motions of the spheres! That is your god delusion.

Hehehehe this is good, this is quite factual, but good ah love dem fightin words dis.

I said all there is to say on this thread!