Back from Saudi Arabia and Egypt

seignet posted:

Sorry bro, I had to put this one in. Lucifer waiting for the Madhi. For the time being, he making sure HIS persecution of HIS faithfuls is blamed on the infidels. Who just happens 2b Christians and Jews. I believe one of the Hadiths seys dat.

Stop listening to ISIS 

When dem boys stormed the Kaaba in 1979 even the Suadis were confused , they thought is was the real Mahdi.

 

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day. This religion needs to grow up like Christianity and allow the State to be above religion and not vice versa. Europe disposed of all its kings and Queens and puts people's power first. Islam needs reformation or else the bloodshed and backwardness will never seized. Oil is becoming like sugar... it's possible we might witness in our lifetime oil producing nations begging for preferential market in Europe and North America.

 

Welcome back Chief. I believe Nehru missed you.

Hey Billy how you doing?

Nehru and me are friends until we start cussing out each other.

Chief posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day. This religion needs to grow up like Christianity and allow the State to be above religion and not vice versa. Europe disposed of all its kings and Queens and puts people's power first. Islam needs reformation or else the bloodshed and backwardness will never seized. Oil is becoming like sugar... it's possible we might witness in our lifetime oil producing nations begging for preferential market in Europe and North America.

 

Welcome back Chief. I believe Nehru missed you.

Hey Billy how you doing?

Nehru and me are friends until we start cussing out each other.

I doing fine man. I needed your help the other day but you were not around. A member of a NON-PROPHET organization called "Atheist" wanted to put a fatwah on me.

Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
Stormborn posted:

I do not have to say more. I noticed in a documentary of undercover police work in London among Islamist that what you said above is exactly the kind of crapola used as a recruiting tool for ISIS. The west hates islam so they create dissent in the Ummah to fragment Muslim unity!  You are exactly those who would undermine the society with lies. Worse, you believe it.

Hello D2

Where is the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Why the West keep supporting Military Juntas like Sisi in Egypt? Don't you think a few thousands from the 95 million Egyptians will become freedom Fighters, sorry according to you and the others Terrorists.

Muslims like myself enhance the western societies we live in because we are honest and give honest answers.

That is just another facile excuse. Remember Tariq Azise on the evening shows hinding that they did and Saddam with his sword in hand brandishing it and shouting taunts? Under the terms of the UN agreement they US had a right to go in. They broke the no fly zone and were bombing the Kurd...and Saddam was downright offensive. But all of this was an excuse.

 

This must be the stupidest thing ever posted here. 

 

 

 

 

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 

Both you and Obama got it wrong.

Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Chief posted:

All kind of people giving fatwahs these days. A see two clowns giving Fatwa on me in regards to our Guyanese slang ' Sweet woman".

I am sure them was referring to the sweet hooman and not the actual slang 

 

You trying to play schupidee with the fatwa.

Chief, the "Islam" I saw in India makes you think that they would be apostates. The rigor of Islam is unwavering and that is what non-Muslims see as an uncompromising phenomenon. It is why you get the type of commentary from Stormy and base. I can understand what you see in the religion of Islam, and it is a position Ii defend, but step out of the paths you went in those two countries and you'll be hit with a different reality.

Chief posted:

Kaz,

I maintain that no reform is needed in Islam. The message was for then, now and until the end of time!

Are some Muslims idiots and bad people, of course. IN Every group of people YOU WILL FIND THAT.

Funny thing is that I know that you will NEVER live in Saudi Arabia, a nation which justifies its laws and practices by how it interprets Islam.

 

Saudi Arabia has been in bed with the corporate elites of the USA so don't make yourself look stupid by pretending as if the West has targeted Islam.  If it had Saudi would be at logger heads with the USA.  Instead its one of their strongest Middle Eastern allies.

caribny posted:
Chief posted:

Kaz,

I maintain that no reform is needed in Islam. The message was for then, now and until the end of time!

Are some Muslims idiots and bad people, of course. IN Every group of people YOU WILL FIND THAT.

Funny thing is that I know that you will NEVER live in Saudi Arabia, a nation which justifies its laws and practices by how it interprets Islam.

 

Saudi Arabia has been in bed with the corporate elites of the USA so don't make yourself look stupid by pretending as if the West has targeted Islam.  If it had Saudi would be at logger heads with the USA.  Instead its one of their strongest Middle Eastern allies.

caribny, Kaz is making a distinction between the religion and the bad people who inhabit it. Don't miss that point.

.

caribny, Kaz is making a distinction between the religion and the bad people who inhabit it. Don't miss that point.

And that has been my point, though you had mental breakdowns every time I mention it.

Forces, which purport to represent Islam, distort the interpretation of the religion, and get confused kids to commit vile acts.

There is also no excuse for the behavior of the Saudi gov't when we see that they justify those acts by their interpretation of Islam.

When the decent majority of Islam remove the ability of these elements to "represent" Islam then we move to a solution of the problem, which can only be solved by Islam.

caribny posted:
.

caribny, Kaz is making a distinction between the religion and the bad people who inhabit it. Don't miss that point.

 

When the decent majority of Islam remove the ability of these elements to "represent" Islam then we move to a solution of the problem, which can only be solved by Islam.

Did Islam create the mess in Iraq, Libya, or Syria?  You have nailed it with your other points, but think that all of the solutions is within Islam which obviously is not.

The issue we face today is not with Islam itself, but with the political system which leads to socio-economic issues.  

Once you disconnect the two, you will see the real problems.

We are all over ISIS about their brutality, but totally ignore the same from the house of Saud (which you did point out).  We even line up to supply them with more weapons to cause more mayhem.

We need to stop the hypocrisy. 

caribny posted:
.

caribny, Kaz is making a distinction between the religion and the bad people who inhabit it. Don't miss that point.

And that has been my point, though you had mental breakdowns every time I mention it.

Forces, which purport to represent Islam, distort the interpretation of the religion, and get confused kids to commit vile acts.

There is also no excuse for the behavior of the Saudi gov't when we see that they justify those acts by their interpretation of Islam.

When the decent majority of Islam remove the ability of these elements to "represent" Islam then we move to a solution of the problem, which can only be solved by Islam.

You have not made any point other than decent Muslims a re responsible for the acts of the despicable ones. When are you going to get off this ridiculous notion of yours. And stop telling people what your point is when we know it and your mental breakdown comment on your point shows your shallow thinking.

 

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
Stormborn posted:

I do not have to say more. I noticed in a documentary of undercover police work in London among Islamist that what you said above is exactly the kind of crapola used as a recruiting tool for ISIS. The west hates islam so they create dissent in the Ummah to fragment Muslim unity!  You are exactly those who would undermine the society with lies. Worse, you believe it.

Hello D2

Where is the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Why the West keep supporting Military Juntas like Sisi in Egypt? Don't you think a few thousands from the 95 million Egyptians will become freedom Fighters, sorry according to you and the others Terrorists.

Muslims like myself enhance the western societies we live in because we are honest and give honest answers.

That is just another facile excuse. Remember Tariq Azise on the evening shows hinding that they did and Saddam with his sword in hand brandishing it and shouting taunts? Under the terms of the UN agreement they US had a right to go in. They broke the no fly zone and were bombing the Kurd...and Saddam was downright offensive. But all of this was an excuse.

 

This must be the stupidest thing ever posted here. 

 

 

 

 

Not even examining the merit of the statement I would say it could not be matched by your incomparable statement that the US destroyed the WTC themselves just to blame Muslims! You set the bar too high for me to even match it for stupidity!

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Abu Jihad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 Both you and Obama got it wrong.

That there are sunnis and shia points to a need to define something...a divide, the origin of which began with the murder of Ali.

Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 Both you and Obama got it wrong.

That there are sunnis and shia points to a need to define something...a divide, the origin of which began with the murder of Ali.

Again you are showing your stupidity. What does that have to do with the current topic or my response.

 

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 Both you and Obama got it wrong.

That there are sunnis and shia points to a need to define something...a divide, the origin of which began with the murder of Ali.

Again you are showing your stupidity. What does that have to do with the current topic or my response.

 

You are denying history and calling me stupid? That is a fanatical Muslim for you. You invent useless denial strategy to ignore facts. Iraq disintegrated because Shia took revenge on the Sunnis by locking them out of the government. That is an ancient schism being acted out with the entire ummah as its canvas.

You answer was a more a denial shrouded in a non answer. It contained no factual support. It was just the same bunch of useless nonsense as when we argued about the WTC.

Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Completely idiotic.  

 

Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 Both you and Obama got it wrong.

That there are sunnis and shia points to a need to define something...a divide, the origin of which began with the murder of Ali.

Again you are showing your stupidity. What does that have to do with the current topic or my response.

 

You are denying history and calling me stupid? That is a fanatical Muslim for you. You invent useless denial strategy to ignore facts. Iraq disintegrated because Shia took revenge on the Sunnis by locking them out of the government. That is an ancient schism being acted out with the entire ummah as its canvas.

 

More bull, where you totally ignore the fact that American Viceroy Paul Bremer  fired the entire Army and other officials to installed his  new puppets

Is this an issue of religion or bad politics that has come back to haunt the world.

 

 

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Completely idiotic.  

 

No doubt....immaculate perception...from god mouth to your ears.... What a bunch of insular dick heads.

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

When will Sunni Muslims accept their Shiite brothers as Muslims too?  Islam was divided from inception and it remains divided up until this day.

Completely wrong.  There was no sunni/shia divide up to the 1980's. Please show where such a divide existed in the 19th and 20th century.  

 Both you and Obama got it wrong.

That there are sunnis and shia points to a need to define something...a divide, the origin of which began with the murder of Ali.

Again you are showing your stupidity. What does that have to do with the current topic or my response.

 

You are denying history and calling me stupid? That is a fanatical Muslim for you. You invent useless denial strategy to ignore facts. Iraq disintegrated because Shia took revenge on the Sunnis by locking them out of the government. That is an ancient schism being acted out with the entire ummah as its canvas.

 

More bull, where you totally ignore the fact that American Viceroy Paul Bremer  fired the entire Army and other officials to installed his  new puppets

Is this an issue of religion or bad politics that has come back to haunt the world.

 

 

Absolutely irrelevant. If they had a mind for justice...these bathists who were the oppressors of the Shia...they reflect on their sins and support a new country. The fight to build the state after decades of cruel dictatorship was not to take to the streets murdering their kinsmen like jackals. Bremer political mistake did not imply social mayhem. These fellows do not know better, nothing in their reality predicated a difference...especially not religion. From where I stand there is little good in religion as expressed here.

Abu Jihad posted:
 

Did Islam create the mess in Iraq, Libya, or Syria?  

Yes! 

The conflicts are part of the endless war of the Shias and the Sunnis, and the attempts by the primitive Wahhabis to dominate them all. 

The Saudis have poured billions to propagate a very conservative interpretation of Islam.  We see this even in the Caribbean where many Muslim women have changed the way that they dress.

Muslims cannot pretend that the Middle East confusion isn't partially due to defects within their religion.  After all religion is used as an excuse by many to justify their acts, and they continue to engage in these acts.

Abu Jihad posted:
 

More bull, where you totally ignore the fact that American Viceroy Paul Bremer  fired the entire Army and other officials to installed his  new puppets

Is this an issue of religion or bad politics that has come back to haunt the world.

 

 

Well the US is not involved in Iraq, but we haven't seen mature discussions among the various religious factions to resolve their problems.  Instead we see ISIS, which spends most of its time slaughtering other Muslims.

caribny posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
 

More bull, where you totally ignore the fact that American Viceroy Paul Bremer  fired the entire Army and other officials to installed his  new puppets

Is this an issue of religion or bad politics that has come back to haunt the world.

 

 

Well the US is not involved in Iraq, but we haven't seen mature discussions among the various religious factions to resolve their problems.  Instead we see ISIS, which spends most of its time slaughtering other Muslims.

ARE YOU SERIOUS!!

 

TODAY THE US IS FIGHTING A WAR IN IRAQ AS WE SPEAK.

Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Completely idiotic.  

 

No doubt....immaculate perception...from god mouth to your ears.... What a bunch of insular dick heads.

Quite an intellectual .......

caribny posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
 

Did Islam create the mess in Iraq, Libya, or Syria?  

Yes! 

The conflicts are part of the endless war of the Shias and the Sunnis, and the attempts by the primitive Wahhabis to dominate them all. 

The Saudis have poured billions to propagate a very conservative interpretation of Islam.  We see this even in the Caribbean where many Muslim women have changed the way that they dress.

Muslims cannot pretend that the Middle East confusion isn't partially due to defects within their religion.  After all religion is used as an excuse by many to justify their acts, and they continue to engage in these acts.

As originally stated, point me in the direction of such endless war over the past 200 years.

Caribny and Stormy,Colin Powell famously quoted someone "if you break it, you own it". The current Mid-East implosion and its effects on the rest of the world started with the US's support for the Shah of Iran who got into power in a coup d'etat. The Ayatollah came to power in Iran and the US used the Iraqis as a proxy. At the end of the Iran-Iraq war the Saudis were belligerent towards Saddam, who complained in the Gulf Cooperation Council with the US as observer status. Ignored, Saddam went into Kuwait, and the US put troops in the holy land to Osama bin Laden's dismay. 9/11 followed and then the straw that broke the camel's back - Bush's invasion of Iraq. Paul Bremmer's de-baathification move had enormous impact in opening old wounds that Saddam kept a lid on. The Arab spring came after the chaos in Iraq and Abu is right to point out that religious differences existed centuries ago. The question we have to ask is not about religion but the politics of it. The religion in all its troubling aspects will continue. We have to solve the politics and the military is one act in that. The Iraqis with US help is about to assault Mosul and isolate Raqqah. I hope before Obama leaves office IS is history - like Osama bin Laden. There will still be remnants of Al Qaeda nd IS but they will be more manageable.

baseman, you completely ignored my point about religious schisms existing for centuries and will continue to exist. I also mentioned the troubling aspects of the religion.

Previously I mentioned that it is disingenuous to state that the cause of IS is that all Muslims tolerate them - caribny's fool-hardy point.

Just like Guyana it all starts with getting the politics right. Solve that and the other things fall in place. Today's problems can be traced to the Iran of the 70s. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait got Al Qaeda going. The invasion of Iraq and the de-baathification got IS started. With all these political acts the religion still had the schisms it has today and will continue to have.

Like an addict you have to recognize the problem. Saying Islam is the problem will not solve anything. Is there a problem with Islam as its practiced in some places? You bet! Is it the same for other religions? Certainly! The only difference is that the Islam problems has this political layer. Oil is a differentiator in the proxy wars between Western Democracies and Soviet Communism.

Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Completely idiotic.  

 

No doubt....immaculate perception...from god mouth to your ears.... What a bunch of insular dick heads.

I get suspended for "Wasted Sperm" and you continue calling people "Dick Heads" without any warnings? I see the politics of this BB. PNC good; PPP bad.

Abu Jihad posted:
caribny posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
 

More bull, where you totally ignore the fact that American Viceroy Paul Bremer  fired the entire Army and other officials to installed his  new puppets

Is this an issue of religion or bad politics that has come back to haunt the world.

 

 

Well the US is not involved in Iraq, but we haven't seen mature discussions among the various religious factions to resolve their problems.  Instead we see ISIS, which spends most of its time slaughtering other Muslims.

ARE YOU SERIOUS!!

 

TODAY THE US IS FIGHTING A WAR IN IRAQ AS WE SPEAK.

Who are most of the people killing Muslims in Iraq.  OTHER MUSLIMS! The USA is fighting ISIS.  ISIS is slaughtering those Muslims who they think aren't Muslim enough.

So blame Muslims because if there wasn't this problem among Muslims others wouldn't intervene!

Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
Stormborn posted:
Chief posted:
skeldon_man posted:

Welcome back. See you visited two non democratic nations. Any observations from each one of them? Their similarities or differences?

As you mentioned non democratic so both are similar. For the Egyptians I think they are resigned to the fact that this is fate. They cannot assemble, period and they are suffering. The Saudis on the other hand are richer and are accustomed to live under the Monarchy.

Muslims do not care for democracy in general. It is why democracy gets no support among muslim nations. It gets only lip support.

Only a jacka$$ will say something like that.  Do you have any facts to support such a stupid statement.

 

Did the people of Egypt not support democracy only to be cut down by the Western backed military.

Egypt was a dictatorship most of its existence. The brotherhood was the first fairly voted in group but immediately they began their own pogrom. The lie that western took fanatics down is excusable because you are one of them. Mohammed Morsi selected Sisi thinking he was one of them given he burquaized his wife. When the people revolted Sisi stepped in. That was all Egyptian natural unfolding of the usual internal power struggle that gravitates to dictatorship.

Completely idiotic.  

 

No doubt....immaculate perception...from god mouth to your ears.... What a bunch of insular dick heads.

Quite an intellectual .......

Indeed...not a fanatic who is bound by delusions that the words of a great book guides me. I am of the western cannon...no rigid ideology frames my thinking.

Kari posted:

Caribny and Stormy,Colin Powell famously quoted someone "if you break it, you own it". The current Mid-East implosion and its effects on the rest of the world started with the US's support for the Shah of Iran who got into power in a coup d'etat. The Ayatollah came to power in Iran and the US used the Iraqis as a proxy. At the end of the Iran-Iraq war the Saudis were belligerent towards Saddam, who complained in the Gulf Cooperation Council with the US as observer status. Ignored, Saddam went into Kuwait, and the US put troops in the holy land to Osama bin Laden's dismay. 9/11 followed and then the straw that broke the camel's back - Bush's invasion of Iraq. Paul Bremmer's de-baathification move had enormous impact in opening old wounds that Saddam kept a lid on. The Arab spring came after the chaos in Iraq and Abu is right to point out that religious differences existed centuries ago. The question we have to ask is not about religion but the politics of it. The religion in all its troubling aspects will continue. We have to solve the politics and the military is one act in that. The Iraqis with US help is about to assault Mosul and isolate Raqqah. I hope before Obama leaves office IS is history - like Osama bin Laden. There will still be remnants of Al Qaeda nd IS but they will be more manageable.

What was Powell talking about if not American will to go to war win with massive force that war and get america out in one piece? Iraq was broken already and america cannot fix that. It is for the people themselves to fix it. America tried to give than that chance.

Saddam had already killed some 300 thousand. He had practically tied the hands and foot of the shia for decades. He just got trounced in a war invading  Kuwait, a nation he owed money to and felt if he absorb them he will to erase the debt. The US warned him not to do it, he went, he destroyed the place setting some 200 oil wells a fire ...even one in the gulf. The US went in trashed his behind all the way to the gates of Bhagdad. He then signed a treaty with firm guidelines to save his ass and maintain his regime.

He broke everyone over the subsequent years...not permitting free inspection of his chemical warfare sights...always insinuating he can again take on the US...all his jets were in Iran where they were hidden. He attacked the the Kurds; they were dying by the thousands in the mountains and plastered on our screens at Christmas time. Chaney asked the president to establish a no fly zone, and began air drops to the kurds and so began the Kurds in constituting their own space in Iraq. 

 

Saddam broke that no fly zone many times. Whatever was the source of the paranoia that caused Bush to believe that he had weapons of mass destruction is irrelevant. One can only take so many chances. The precautionary principle became a grating theme for them. America began to debate pre emptive wars...just wars etc. After all Saddam did gas the Kurds. That was the use of a mass destruction weapon. That he did not have more was his ill luck. That he made the US believe that was what caused the destruction of his regime. Bush did not break Iraq. It was a broken place hardly possible to reconstitute from the pieces.

 

Digging back into pre history to constitute a rationale for what is going on there is not reasonable. Why stop there? Did not the western powers create all of those states artificially from among itinerant Bedouin tribes living in a no man's land they called Jazirat al Arab and who lived in a natural state with their own clan laws and squabbling over water holes and little green spaces in endless internecine struggles? Why should a non-state like Osama displeasure at his King asking the US to come in and prevent Iraq from overrunning Saudi? He can be pissed all he want he had no standing to make such demands. The very idea that kufars cannot visit this holy place is offensive to me.

What Saddam kept the lid on was a the ancient tribalism and religious sectarianism that could have been resolved when they had the right to choose and determine freely through negotiation. What sense does it make that we need tyrants in the world to maintain peace? Sensible people are to forge their own path according to their own traditions as long as it does not mean murdering others en mass those not like them. Then some one has to stand up for them. Who will stand for the Yazidi, the Copts and the ancient Assyrian tribal Christians being slaughtered?  Well it falls to the US again and that is why the people here are tired of wars. But as long as there are barbarians claiming absolute knowledge who are determined to interpret what is right for others or they kill them like rats then someone has to stop them.

 

The next US administration will put boots on the ground again. They will have to clear a space in Lybia or Syria to be a beach head of safety for the endless mass of people streaming into Europe. If that is not stop then what do you think will happen? Those people will eventually begin go cannibalize their hosts with car bombs and suicide bombs. Europe has to create a safe haven for them and the US and Nato will be engaged oncemore on the ground.

skeldon_man posted:

 

No doubt....immaculate perception...from god mouth to your ears.... What a bunch of insular dick heads.

I get suspended for "Wasted Sperm" and you continue calling people "Dick Heads" without any warnings? I see the politics of this BB. PNC good; PPP bad.

I have no inhibition to call him a dick head. That fellow insists the US blew up the Trade Towers to get into the war and rob muslims of their oil.  He is now claiming that ISIS was produced by the US and not the reality that Sunnis and Shia cannot get along and as soon as the US left...they went after each other. He claims there was no long standing struggle between the two groups when it existed since Ali. Yes...only something with out a brain can do that...ie a dick head.

baseman posted:

We shouldn't have ousted Sadaam!!  That was a strategic blunder!!

Hind sight is exactly that, looking at your backsides. Saddam was a butcher, a mad butcher and what he was doing the the Swamp Arabs, the Kurds was untenable. We are faced with the same dilemma with ISIS. No one wants to go in because they do not want to do what conquering armies has to do to win...occupy space. Airstrikes combined with fighting between factions on the ground will simply destroy the entire region. It is either you go in and try to constitute some order or stay out and watch the genocide and Europe will have to dump refuges into the desert because Europe cannot take in all that wants to come. Nations are natrions only if they can maintain some semblance of internal order. Saddam needed to die. Maybe the new realty of not holding space but containing the factions in it and their citizens as well  means letting the feuding factions kill each other to the point of extinction and their citizens as well. You decide.

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