700 Indian brides given wooden paddles to beat their husbands

This is what WIKI says. I request that my Muslim brothers step in and clarify:

Islamic Scriptures and Wife-Beating[edit]

Wife-Beating in the Qur'an[edit]

"Beat them" (4:34)[edit]

Domestic violence is a societal problem in many countries, but in the Muslim world it is divinely ordained and justified by the Qur'an in verse 4:34.

So that the meaning is clear, three translations of this verse are provided below. The word 'beat' in the arabic is daraba (beat, strike, hit[1]).

Yusuf Ali translation: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


Pickthall translation: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

 

Shakir translation: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. )

All three translations agree with each other and establish that the Qur'an promotes wife-beating. The Qur'an states two methods must be used to make the wife become obedient and if they do not work, then wife-beating is permitted. It also states men have authority over women, and women are to be obedient, thus establishing an authoritarian structure with the husband as head of the wife. The reason given for this is that Allah created men superior to women and because men are maintainers of women.

In Arabic:

ٱلرِّجَالُ قَوَّٰمُونَ عَلَى ٱلنِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَآ أَنفَقُوا۟ مِنْ أَمْوَٰلِهِمْ فَٱلصَّٰلِحَٰتُ قَٰنِتَٰتٌ حَٰفِظَٰتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ ٱللَّهُ وَٱلَّٰتِى تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَٱهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلْمَضَاجِعِ وَٱضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا۟ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا
Qur'an 4:34

The beginning:

  • ٱلرِّجَالُ (ar-rijaalu) - men
  • قَوَّٰمُونَ (qawwaamoona) - maintainers
  • عَلَى ('ala) - over
  • ٱلنِّسَآءِ (nisaa'i) - women

The "beat them" part:

  • فَعِظُوهُنَّ (fa'aithoohunna) - then (fa) admonish ('aithoo) them (hunna)
  • وَٱهْجُرُوهُنَّ (wahjuroohunna) - and (wa) forsake (hjuroo) them (hunna)
  • فِى (fy) - in
  • ٱلْمَضَاجِعِ (almadaji'ai) - beds
  • وَٱضْرِبُوهُنَّ (wadriboohunna) - and (wa) beat (driboo) them (hunna)
  • فَإِنْ (fa'in) - then (fa) if (in)
  • أَطَعْنَكُمْ (ata'anakum) - they obey (ata'ana) you (kum)

The root of the word وَٱضْرِبُوهُنَّ (wa-driboo-hunna) is ضرب (d-r-b). The letter ٱ (alif waslah) is not pronounced here but if it was without the و (-wa, meaning "and") prefix and at a beginning of a speech it would be read as "i", so the word would be "idriboohunna" (ٱضْرِبُوهُنَّ).

There are many other words, derived from this root, with a similar meaning, used in the Qur'an:

  • Verse 2:60 "...strike (ٱضْرِب, drib) the rock with your staff..."
  • Verse 2:73 "...strike it (ٱضْرِبُوهُ, driboo-hu) with a part of the cow..."
  • Verse 8:12 "...so strike (فَٱضْرِبُوا۟, fa-driboo) on their necks..."
  • and others.

The word "lighly" does not appear in the original Arabic version and it is only added by some translators.

Job beat his wife (38:44)[edit]

The Qur'an also states that the prophet Job (Ayyub) was permitted to beat his wife using a bunch of grass / twigs / rushes (dighthan[2]).

[We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].

Tafsirs such as Ibn Kathir's explain the story behind this verse. The lesson from the Qur'an is that it is better to beat your wife in a relatively unpainful, yet still humilating way, than to break an earlier oath that you will beat her.

Ayyub, peace be upon him, got angry with his wife and was upset about something she had done, so he swore an oath that if Allah healed him, he would strike her with one hundred blows. When Allah healed him, how could her service, mercy, compassion and kindness be repaid with a beating So Allah showed him a way out, which was to take a bundle of thin grass, with one hundred stems, and hit her with it once. Thus he fulfilled his oath and avoided breaking his vow.
Ayyub
Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Wife-Beating in the Hadiths[edit]

Some Muslims deny the Qur'an permits wife-beating and claim surah 4:34 has been misinterpreted, but in the Hadiths there are several examples, from various Hadith narrators and collectors, of Muhammad ordaining wife-beating, thus confirming the correct understanding of surah 4:34. There are multiple hadiths in which Muhammad's companions beat or struck women, and conflicting evidence narrated from his wife, 'A'isha, on whether Muhammad himself used physical force against women. In the section following this one, we identify hadiths in which Muhammad attempted to moderate the level of violence.

In our first hadith, Muhammad causes his wife Aisha physical pain by striking her in the chest. The word used here is lahada, which means he pushed violently or struck her chest[3].

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

On the other hand, a hadith in Abu Dawud records 'A'isha saying that Muhammad never hit (daraba) a woman, in contrast to the hadith quoted above in which she says that Muhammad pushed / struck her painfully in the chest.

`A’isha said: the Messenger of Allah (saws ) never struck a servant or a woman.

The evidence is straightforward regarding the actions of some of Muhammad's companions. In the next hadith, Abu Bakr (the first Rightly-Guided Caliph of Islam), also strikes (his daughter) Aisha violently with his fist.

Narrated Aisha:Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, "You have detained the people because of your necklace." But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah's Apostle although that hit was very painful.

In the following hadith, Abu Bakr informs Muhammad he slapped Khadijah’s daughter, and Muhammad responds by laughing and tells Abu Bakr his wives are asking him for more money. Abu Bakr and Umar (the second Rightly-Guided Caliph of Islam) respond by slapping Muhammad's wives, Hafsa and (for the third time) Aisha.

Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him). He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Prophet (peace be upon him) laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Khadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughedand said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) then got up went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger peace be upon him) for anything he does not possess. Then he withdrew from them for a month or for twenty-nine days. Then this verse was revealed to him:" Prophet: Say to thy wives... for a mighty reward" (xxxiii. 28). He then went first to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said: I want to propound something to you, 'A'isha, but wish no hasty reply before you consult your parents. She said: Messenger of Allah, what is that? He (the Holy Prophet) recited to her the verse, whereupon she said: Is it about you that I should consult my parents, Messenger of Allah? Nay, I choose Allah, His Messenger, and the Last Abode; but I ask you not to tell any of your wives what I have said He replied: Not one of them will ask me without my informing her. God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy.

In the next hadith, Ali (the fourth Rightly-Guided Caliph of Islam) gives a slave-girl a violent beating in front of Muhammad.

As for Ali he said “Women are plentiful, and you can easily change one for another. Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.” So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her and Ali got up and gave her a violent beating, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”
Ibn Ishaq: p 496

At one time Muhammad gives a decree instructing men to not beat their wives, but changes his mind once Umar informs him that some of the women have become embolden towards their husbands.

Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them.Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.

Another hadith graded Hasan (the 2nd highest level of authenticity) says that a man should not be asked why he beat his wife:

It was narrated that Ash'ath bin Qais said: "I was a guest (at the home) of 'Umar one night, and in the middle of the night he went and hit his wife, and I separated them. When he went to bed he said to me: 'O Ash'ath, learn from me something that I heard from the Messenger of Allah" A man should not be asked why he beats his wife, and do not go to sleep until you have prayed the Witr."' And I forgot the third thing."

In the following hadith, a woman complains to Muhammad about her husband and shows him where he had beaten and bruised her. Muhammad listens to the husband’s side of the story and comes to the conclusion the reason why his wife is complaining is because he cannot sexually satisfy her and she wants to go back to her ex-husband, when all she is really saying is that he is abusing her. Instead of scolding her husband for beating her, Muhammad says she cannot re-marry her ex unless she has sexual intercourse with her husband first.

Also in this hadith, Aisha states that she has not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women, meaning Muslim women were suffering more than their pagan and Abrahamic counterparts.

Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."

In the authentic version of the "Farewell Sermon", Muhammad compares women to domestic animals and once again orders men to beat their wives.

"You have rights over your wives and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and beat them but not with severity. If they refrain from these things they have the right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons. You have taken them as a trust from God, and you have the enjoyment of their persons by the words of God, so understand…

Now then, O people, you have a right over your wives and they have a right over you. You have [the right] that they should not cause anyone of whom you dislike to tread on your beds; and that they should not commit any open indecency. If they do, then Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with the custom. Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from Allah, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of Allah, so understand and listen to my words, O people.

Narrated Amr ibn al-Ahwas al-Jushami: Amr heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say in his farewell address on the eve of his Last Pilgrimage, after he had glorified and praised Allah, he cautioned his followers: "Listen! Treat women kindly; they are like prisoners in your hands. Beyond this you do not owe anything from them. Should they be guilty of flagrant misbehaviour, you may remove them from your beds, and beat them but do not inflict upon them any severe punishment. Then if they obey you, do not have recourse to anything else against them. Listen! You have your rights upon your wives and they have their rights upon you. Your right is that they shall not allow anyone you dislike, to trample your bed and do not permit those whom you dislike to enter your home. Their right is that you should treat them well in the matter of food and clothing.

In summation, we find in the Hadiths:

  1. Muhammad provided tacit approval of wife beating by not scolding Muslims for beating their wives
  2. Muhammad forbid Muslims from questioning men who beat their wives
  3. Muhammad allowed others to hit his wives (the very women whom all Muslims adore and refer to as "the Mother of believers")
  4. Three of the four Rightly-Guided Caliphs beat women
  5. Muhammad reaffirms the command of wife-beating in his parting sermon
  6. Muhammad himself struck his wife in the chest

It is clear from all of the above that wife-beating has been an accepted part of Islam since its inception. Muhammad was not against domestic violence and indeed permitted wife-beating in Islam.

Attempts to moderate the severity of the beatings[edit]

It seems that Muhammad was concerned that the Muslim men were beating their wives too severely. Some hadiths record his efforts to control the severity of the beatings.

Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a: The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave"

In another hadith, Muhammad advises a recently divorced woman against marrying someone who he knows to be 'very harsh with women'.

Fatima bint Qais (Allah be pleased with her) reported: My husband Abu 'Amr b. Hafs b. al-Mughira sent 'Ayyish b. Abu Rabi'a to me with a divorce, and he also sent through him five si's of dates and five si's of barley. I said: Is there no maintenance allowance for me but only this, and I cannot even spend my 'Idda period in your house? He said: No. She said: I dressed myself and came to Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him). He said: How many pronouncements of divorce have been made for you? I said: Three. He said what he ('Ayyish b. Abu Rabi'a) had stated was true. There is no maintenance allowance for you. Spend 'Idda period in the house of your cousin, Ibn Umm Maktum. He is blind and you can put off your garment in his presence. And when you have spent your Idda period, you inform me. She said: Mu'awiya and Abu'l-Jahm (Allah be pleased with them) were among those who had given me the proposal of marriage. Thereupon Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: Mu'awiya is destitute and in poor condition and Abu'l-Jahm is very harsh with women (or he beats women, or like that), you should take Usama b. Zaid (as your husband).

In the following hadith, Muhammad says not to beat your wife's face.

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:

Mu'awiyah asked: Messenger of Allah, what is the right of the wife of one of us over him? He replied: That you should give her food when you eat, clothe her when you clothe yourself, do not strike her on the face, do not revile her or separate yourself from her except in the house.

Abu Dawud said: The meaning of "do not revile her" is, as you say: "May Allah revile you".

Another version of the same hadith is worded more generally, saying, "do not beat them". If this version is a more accurate reflection of what Muhammad said, it could be that it occured in the temporary period in which Muhammad forbade beating (see Sunan Abu Dawud 11:2141 quoted above).

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them

A lengthy hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud includes an instruction to beat your wives, but not severely, if they allow anyone whom you dislike to lie on your beds, which were rolled out on the floor in bedouin tents. 'beat them, but not severely' is in the arabic 'fa-idribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrihin"', and literally means 'beat them, a beating without violence, severity, sharpness, vehemence[4]'. It is very similar to Muhammad's farewell sermon quoted above and includes the following:

Fear Allaah regarding women for you have got them under Allah’s security and have the right to intercourse with them by Allaah’s word. It is a duty from you on them not to allow anyone whom you dislike to lie on your beds but if they do beat them, but not severely.

Al-Tabari's tafsir for verse 4:34[5] seems to be the earliest record of the idea that wife beating should be done with a miswak / siwaak (a small stick-like item used as a toothbrush). These do not appear in the main sahih hadith collections, but are of interest nonetheless.

I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is a non-severe beating? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like.

Al-Tabari's tafsir for verse 4:34

The phrase 'non-severe beating' is 'darban ghayra mubarrihin'. See the word definitions explained above regarding its appearance in the Abu Dawud hadith and Muhammad's farewell sermon.

Tabari also has Qatada clarifying that it means ghayr sha'in (without being disgraceful, outrageous, obscene, indecent).

Note that there is a widespread apologetic fiction that 'darban ghayra mubarrih' means "a light tap that leaves no mark". The origin of this claim is obscure, but there is no justification for such a translation.

Putting the hadiths together, it seems that Muhammad condemned those who beat their wives as severely as their slaves. At one time it seems that he forbade beating, before changing his mind. It seems that by the time of his farewell sermon he emphasised that beatings should not be severe.

If Tabari's hadiths are to be believed, Muhammad at some point stated further that the beating should only be with a miswak or the like. It is, however, rather far fetched that verse 4:34 can be interpreted in this way. The idea that a husband should attempt to regain obedience from his wife by tapping her with a toothbrush after failure to achieve the desired result by admonishing her and banishing her from his bed is surely too nonsensical to have been the intended meaning of the verse when Muhammad first uttered it.

Furthermore, even if Muhammad and verse 4:34 had instructed husbands to use an entirely painless beating on their wives (clearly that is not the case, as well as being an oxymoron), it would still be a humiliation and contribute to the general attitude in Islamic sources that wives must obey their husbands, who can discipline them, and controlling attitudes generally towards women in Islam.

Early and Modern Muslim Scholars on Wife-Beating[edit]

Muslim scholars have written a lot of commentary in relation to wife-beating in the Qur'an. Here we will only quote a few scholars:

Ayyub, peace be upon him, got angry with his wife and was upset about something she had done, so he swore an oath that if Allah healed him, he would strike her with one hundred blows. When Allah healed him, how could her service, mercy, compassion and kindness be repaid with a beating So Allah showed him a way out, which was to take a bundle of thin grass, with one hundred stems, and hit her with it once. Thus he fulfilled his oath and avoided breaking his vow.
Ayyub
Tafsir Ibn Kathir
"When a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife (nushuz), whether in words, as when she answers him coldly when she used to do so politely, or he asks her to come to bed and she refuses, contrary to her usual habit; or whether in acts, as when he finds her averse to him when she was previously kind and cheerful), he warns her in words (without keeping from her or hitting her, for it may be that she has an excuse. The warning could be to tell her, "fear Allah concerning the rights you owe to me," or it could be to explain that rebelliousness nullifies his obligation to support her and give her a turn amongst other wives, or it could be to inform her, "Your obeying me is religiously obligatory"). If she commits rebelliousness, he keeps from sleeping (and having sex) with her without words, and may hit her, but not in a way that injures her, meaning he may not (bruise her), break bones, wound her, or cause blood to flow. (It is unlawful to strike another’s face.) He may hit her whether she is rebellious only once or whether more than once, though a weaker opinion holds that he may hot hit her unless there is repeated rebelliousness."

If the wife does not fulfill one of the above-mentioned obligations, she is termed "rebellious" (nashiz), and the husband takes the following steps to correct matters:

(a) admonition and advice, by explaining the unlawfulness of rebellion, its harmful effect on married life, and by listening to her viewpoint on the matter;

(b) if admonition is ineffectual, he keeps from her by not sleeping in bed with her, by which both learn the degree to which they need each other;

(c) if keeping from her is ineffectual, it is permissible for him to hit her if he believes that hitting her will bring her back to the right path, though if he does not think so, it is not permissible. His hitting her may not be in a way that injures her, and is his last recourse to save the family.

(d) if the disagreement does not end after all this, each partner chooses an arbitrator to solve the dispute by settlement, or divorce.
Al-Nawawi
Reliance of the Traveller
How should the beatings go? Maybe a light slap on her shoulder, or maybe a not-so-light pinch, or a kind of gentle shove. He should make her feel that he wants to reform her, and let her know that he is displeased with her. It is like saying: None of the measures that work with sensitive people work with you. A word would be enough for any wife with lofty morals, but with you, words do not help.

Then he attempts a new direction, appealing to her femininity and emotions, by making her feel that he doesn't want her or love her. When this doesn't work, he says to her: With you, I have reached a stage which is only appropriate for inhumane people - the stage of beating.

Beating is one of the punishments of religious law. What kind of people are beaten? Virgin adulterers, both men and women, are beaten as a means of discipline. Who else is beaten? A person who committed an offense and was sentenced by the judge to beatings. Who else is beaten? Someone who committed a crime. By beating his wife, the husband is saying: You've committed a grave sin that merits beatings."
Egyptian Cleric Galal Al-Khatib Explains Wife-Beating in Islam
MEMRI: Special Dispatch, No. 2229, February 5, 2009
With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife. [According to the Koran], first 'admonish them,' [then] 'sleep in separate beds, and beat them.'...This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options – either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses. The first means is admonishment...The second means of treatment is 'sleeping in separate beds.' Why? Because this targets the honor... A lot could be said about this. The strength of a woman lies in her ability to seduce the man. The man is strong and can do whatever he wants, but the woman has a weapon of her own. This weapon can be targeted. Many women will come back to their senses, when they realize that this is what's involved...By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is.
Discipline. The husband has the right to discipline his wife if she disobeys him in something good, not if she disobeys him in something sinful, because Allaah has enjoined disciplining women by forsaking them in bed and by hitting them, when they do not obey. The Hanafis mentioned four situations in which a husband is permitted to discipline his wife by hitting her. These are: not adorning herself when he wants her to; not responding when he calls her to bed and she is taahirah (pure, i.e., not menstruating); not praying; and going out of the house without his permission.
What are the rights of the husband and what are the rights of the wife?
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 10680

Statistics on Domestic Violence in the Muslim World[edit]

Given the fact wife-beating is divinely ordained in Islam, one must wonder how this effects the Muslim world. Here are some statistics on domestic violence in the Muslim world:

<dl><dt>Afghanistan</dt></dl>
Nearly 90 percent of Afghan women suffer from domestic abuse, according to the United Nations Development Fund for Women. Despite that, there are less than a dozen shelters like this one in Afghanistan, usually run by non-governmental organizations. Abusers are rarely prosecuted or convicted, and most women are afraid to say anything. "Their mothers are beaten by their fathers. They're beaten by their fathers, by their brothers. It's a way of life," said Manizha Naderi, director of WAW.[6]
<dl><dt>Iran</dt></dl>
Statistics in Iran show that 66% of Iranian women, at the beginning of the marriage have been at least physically abused once. Some forms of physical abuse that occur include: biting, bondage, imprisonment in their own home, scratching, hair pulling, and even starving.[7]
<dl><dt>Iraq</dt></dl>
A recent report by the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) registered 139 cases of violence against women in the northern region of Kurdistan in the second half of 2008 alone. It said 163 women were killed as a result of domestic violence in Kurdistan in 2009. Experts suggest the number is less than 5 percent of the real estimates.[8]
<dl><dt>Jordan</dt></dl>
91% of university students polled by the Jordanian Human Right Center approve of wife beating. An earlier study by another organization found out that a majority of WOMEN also supports the right of a husband to beat the wife[9]
According to the [National Family Council] report:
83% of Jordanian women approve of wife beating if the woman cheats on her husband
60% approve of wife beating in cases where the wife burns a meal she's cooking
52% approve of wife beating in case where she's refused to follow the husband’s orders[10]
<dl><dt>Pakistan</dt></dl>
A study published in June 2006 in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage. At times, the violence inflicted on women takes on truly horrendous forms. The Islamabad-based Progressive Women's Association (PWA), headed by Shahnaz Bukhari, believes up to 4,000 women are burnt each year, almost always by husbands or in-laws, often as “punishment” for minor “offences” or for failure to bring in a sufficient dowry. The PWA said it had collected details of nearly 8,000 such victims from March 1994 to March 2007, from three hospitals in the Rawalpindi-Islamabad area alone.[11]
The number of incidents of violence against women increased by 13 per cent in 2009, says a report by the Aurat Foundation set to be released on Wednesday. The report states that 8,548 incidents of violence against women were reported in 2009 compared to 7,571 incidents reported in 2008. Of these, 5,722 were reported to have occurred in Punjab, followed by 1,762 in Sindh, 655 in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and 237 in Balochistan. Similarly, 172 cases of violence against women were reported in Islamabad, the report said.[12]
<dl><dt>Palestinian Authority area</dt></dl>
Launched in January 1999, the [Women's Empowerment] project first established a research team, trained by Dr Abdo, which in turn began training community leaders on gender-based research methods. They have used these skills to interview a representative sample of 120 women from refugee camps, villages, and cities in the Gaza Strip to determine the incidence of gender-based violence. The preliminary results are alarming: half of the women interviewed to date have been victims of violence. "Violence against women in Gaza basically means domestic violence," says research consultant Aitemad Muhanna. "Women are beaten by their husbands, beaten by their fathers, and even beaten by their brothers." Women are beaten for not fulfilling traditional roles — such as cooking, cleaning, or tending to their appearance — to a husband's satisfaction. Other abuses include harsh insults, sexual abuse among family, and marital rape.[13]
<dl><dt>Qatar</dt></dl>
One in three wives in Qatar suffer physical or psychological violence from the side of their husband[14]
<dl><dt>Turkey</dt></dl>
London-based Refugee Workers Association Woman’s Group (GIK-DER) revealed disturbing news last week [in November, 2006] that up to 80% Turkish and Kurdish women are victims of domestic violence and sexual harassment. At the same time 70% of Turkish and Kurdish husbands cheat on their wives.[15]
According to a government study titled “Research on Domestic Violence against Women in Turkey,” 41.9 percent of Turkish women are subjected to physical and sexual violence. Women at a “low-income level” are assaulted at a rate of 49.9 percent, while the number for higher-income women is still high, at 28.7 percent.
. . .
Altogether, 33.7 percent of women said they considered suicide as a solution to their problems.[16]
According to a report by UN Women released in early July of last year [2011], Turkey tops Europe and the US in the number of incidences of violence against women. Official statistics reveal that four out of 10 women in Turkey are beaten by their husbands.[17]
<dl><dt>South Mediterranean Region</dt></dl>
Violence against women in the home is the main emergency needed to be tackled by the Mediterranean's southern shores. The phenomenon affects between 40% and 75% of married women, who suffer mainly at the hands of their husbands. This is the glaring figure contained in a study carried out by the Euromed Gender Equality Programme (EGEP), which has been presented at a conference held in Brussels. The 'Programme to enhance quality between men and women in the Euromed Region', which is financed by the European Union as part of neighbourhood policy, focussed on nine partner countries between 2008 and 2011: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Palestinian Territories, Syria and Tunisia.[18]
ba$eman posted:
yuji22 posted:
ba$eman posted:
cain posted:

The Justice Min should have made dam sure women won't be beaten by making it law any husband beating their wives just because they feel like it to receive a whipping if and when found guilty. It still aint right for a Justice Min to do such a thing by putting women in a position of judge and executioner. In the not too distant future do not be surprised when we read of some of these women being injured or worse,killed with those same paddles after they tried using it on their husbands.

Only a stupid individual, and we have them here,  would believe aiding and abetting violence from any side would make it better.  You are correct, such actions will create a reaction.  Riff's religion promotes hitting a wife as ok as long as no marks result.

Maybe Riff should marry Leonora, he take his Islamic whip and give her the Hindu paddle!  Do fuh do no obeah, suh deh seh!

Base is this really true ? If so, then members of his religion has a lot of answering to do.

Yes, it's true in certain Islamic cultures, especially among Sunnis and their Wahab brethren!

I was floored when I read what WIKI posted. I call on my Muslim brothers to step in an clarify. It appears as if wife beating is allowed in Islam.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

yuji22 posted:
ba$eman posted:
yuji22 posted:

Base is this really true ? If so, then members of his religion has a lot of answering to do.

Yes, it's true in certain Islamic cultures, especially among Sunnis and their Wahab brethren!

I was floored when I read what WIKI posted. I call on my Muslim brothers to step in an clarify. It appears as if wife beating is allowed in Islam.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Some how I have a strong feeling you may have just started one big cock fight here on GNI!!

RiffRaff posted:

see what happen when yall men get ah little challenge from women, yuh start acting out

BTW, I have no clue how religion got into this, but I suspect it must be a lil coollie boy who want play wid he willie, ah mean wiki

No Riff, it was based on a moral compass that any violence is wrong and should not be promoted or aided and abetted.  I do understand this is an alien concept to you!

ba$eman posted:
yuji22 posted:
ba$eman posted:
yuji22 posted:

Base is this really true ? If so, then members of his religion has a lot of answering to do.

Yes, it's true in certain Islamic cultures, especially among Sunnis and their Wahab brethren!

I was floored when I read what WIKI posted. I call on my Muslim brothers to step in an clarify. It appears as if wife beating is allowed in Islam.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Some how I have a strong feeling you may have just started one big cock fight here on GNI!!

Not really, I have requested that it be clarified. Any fair minded person will respond and address this concern.

RiffRaff posted:

yuh see wan beta in the hands of a woman, now yuh concerned about DV, I never read anywhere here where you complained when men beating or raping women in India

Where did you ever see me supporting or trivializing DV of any sort?  This thread was specific to the promotion of DV of women against men.  You probably missed my reaction when I saw violence against women/wives was promoted and encouraged by Islam!  I had the same, or stronger, reaction as this thread!

Regarding violence in India, not sure why you insinuate I believe that was ok.  You are getting low and cheap as your stupidity has been exposed here.

ba$eman posted:
RiffRaff posted:

yuh see wan beta in the hands of a woman, now yuh concerned about DV, I never read anywhere here where you complained when men beating or raping women in India

Where did you ever see me supporting or trivializing DV of any sort?  This thread was specific to the promotion of DV of women against men.  You probably missed my reaction when I saw violence against women/wives was promoted and encouraged by Islam!  I had the same, or stronger, reaction as this thread!

Regarding violence in India, not sure why you insinuate I believe that was ok.  You are getting low and cheap as your stupidity has been exposed here.

His response is indeed low class. Members engage, discuss and seek clarification but his response is like that of a fish market woman.

"a gift to keep drunks in check" and "police won't say anything".
 
At the ceremony in central India over the weekend, Gopal Bhargava, the minister of social justice and rural development, presented women with the bats and urged them to put them to use if necessary.
 
He said: “If your husband or any other member of family comes home drunk, treat him with it.” Mr Bhargava has ordered nearly 10,000 bats for distribution to newlywed women.
 
He explained that the purpose of the bats was to help rural women protect themselves as concerns over alcoholism mount in India.

 

Baseman, 10,000 more were ordered. Go fight Mr. Bhargava. Show him how smart you are.  

Keffer posted:
Prashad posted:

Its a good thing the Keffer is a brown man in search of a White Arab Bride or else his behind would have beaten with a wooden paddle by a brown woman.

Prash, I have already gotten what I wanted; a Guyanese wife, so whatever is left is all at your disposal so help yourself, eh ! 

That Guyanese wife have to keep a sharp eye on the keffer when he visit those Arab countries or else keffer will promote her to senior wife and add a young Arab as junior.

I do not see what religion has to do with this thread. Even if it is true that beating a wife is a Muslim thing this is not what the thread is about...it is the opposite,women given permission to beat their husbands. I see no religious overtones here. 

Prashad posted:
Keffer posted:
Prashad posted:

Its a good thing the Keffer is a brown man in search of a White Arab Bride or else his behind would have beaten with a wooden paddle by a brown woman.

Prash, I have already gotten what I wanted; a Guyanese wife, so whatever is left is all at your disposal so help yourself, eh ! 

That Guyanese wife have to keep a sharp eye on the keffer when he visit those Arab countries or else keffer will promote her to senior wife and add a young Arab as junior.

Prash, maybe I should take you along with me on my next trip; after seeing the women there,  you will beg to be converted !

yuji22 posted:
ba$eman posted:
RiffRaff posted:

yuh see wan beta in the hands of a woman, now yuh concerned about DV, I never read anywhere here where you complained when men beating or raping women in India

Where did you ever see me supporting or trivializing DV of any sort?  This thread was specific to the promotion of DV of women against men.  You probably missed my reaction when I saw violence against women/wives was promoted and encouraged by Islam!  I had the same, or stronger, reaction as this thread!

Regarding violence in India, not sure why you insinuate I believe that was ok.  You are getting low and cheap as your stupidity has been exposed here.

His response is indeed low class. Members engage, discuss and seek clarification but his response is like that of a fish market woman.

better a fish market woman than starting multiple racist or anti Muslim threads

cain posted:

I do not see what religion has to do with this thread. Even if it is true that beating a wife is a Muslim thing this is not what the thread is about...it is the opposite,women given permission to beat their husbands. I see no religious overtones here. 

If wife-beating is a 'Muslim thing', Guyana and so many other countries ought to be classified as part of the Muslim world ! Don't you agree with me, Prash ?

Prashad posted:

I prefer the Pakistani women rather than Indian women. The Pakistani women are much more traditional. They stick with the Pakistani men.

 

Prash, I will be going back to India and Pakistan in two/three weeks so let me know your preferences (tall, short, slim, plump, etc) so that I can make some arrangements for you. Unfortunately, Tajikistan is not in my current plans.

Prashad posted:

I prefer the Pakistani women rather than Indian women. The Pakistani women are much more traditional. They stick with the Pakistani men.

 

That is not such a good thing, Prash ! When they do not 'stick with you', you then have the option of making frequent changes; after all ....variety is the spice of life, isn't that so ?

Leonora posted:
ba$eman posted:

This is why Riff and Leonora would make a suitable couple!

I believe Riff's wife is Hindu. I had enough of that thing called marriage. The first half of my life I was a victim of domestic violence. Three years ago I called the police to take the abuser away. I've been healing slowly; writing on GNI is a form of therapy. The second half of my life is to take care of myself and my son. No man will abuse me again, and I don't think I'll ever remarry. I'm writing a book of my life experiences for my son.

no wonder you never smiled....what is his name again Chris???? What were you doing with that little punk anyway? You could have easily snag one of them white scientist and live a great life. Wish you luck....Seriously..

Leonora posted:
ba$eman posted:

This is why Riff and Leonora would make a suitable couple!

I believe Riff's wife is Hindu. I had enough of that thing called marriage. The first half of my life I was a victim of domestic violence. Three years ago I called the police to take the abuser away. I've been healing slowly; writing on GNI is a form of therapy. The second half of my life is to take care of myself and my son. No man will abuse me again, and I don't think I'll ever remarry. I'm writing a book of my life experiences for my son.

I am really sorry that you experienced domestic violence. At least you were strong enough to make a stand. Look at the second half of your life as a rebirth. Don't make the same mistakes but at the same time try not to let it condition how you live.

Leonora posted:
ba$eman posted:

This is why Riff and Leonora would make a suitable couple!

I believe Riff's wife is Hindu. I had enough of that thing called marriage. The first half of my life I was a victim of domestic violence. Three years ago I called the police to take the abuser away. I've been healing slowly; writing on GNI is a form of therapy. The second half of my life is to take care of myself and my son. No man will abuse me again, and I don't think I'll ever remarry. I'm writing a book of my life experiences for my son.

Watch out for the double crossing wolves in sheep's clothing out there.  They come from places where you least expect them - with sugar on their tongue and a knife to stab you in the back!

Leonora posted:
ba$eman posted:

This is why Riff and Leonora would make a suitable couple!

I believe Riff's wife is Hindu. I had enough of that thing called marriage. The first half of my life I was a victim of domestic violence. Three years ago I called the police to take the abuser away. I've been healing slowly; writing on GNI is a form of therapy. The second half of my life is to take care of myself and my son. No man will abuse me again, and I don't think I'll ever remarry. I'm writing a book of my life experiences for my son.

Sorry to hear this Leonora. In a relationship no one deserves being treated with disrespect regardless by action or words.

Leonora posted:
"a gift to keep drunks in check" and "police won't say anything".
 
At the ceremony in central India over the weekend, Gopal Bhargava, the minister of social justice and rural development, presented women with the bats and urged them to put them to use if necessary.
 
He said: “If your husband or any other member of family comes home drunk, treat him with it.” Mr Bhargava has ordered nearly 10,000 bats for distribution to newlywed women.
 
He explained that the purpose of the bats was to help rural women protect themselves as concerns over alcoholism mount in India.

 

Baseman, 10,000 more were ordered. Go fight Mr. Bhargava. Show him how smart you are.  

I hope you get one to put some good lash pun fullah Riff whose religion says he was the right to whip you into submission!

Leonora posted:
ba$eman posted:

This is why Riff and Leonora would make a suitable couple!

I believe Riff's wife is Hindu. I had enough of that thing called marriage. The first half of my life I was a victim of domestic violence. Three years ago I called the police to take the abuser away. I've been healing slowly; writing on GNI is a form of therapy. The second half of my life is to take care of myself and my son. No man will abuse me again, and I don't think I'll ever remarry. I'm writing a book of my life experiences for my son.

And I'm sorry to hear of your experience.  No one deserves to be abused, man or woman!

Leonora,  as I read about your  experience, I had to stop and while  unconsciously rocking back and forth in my chair for a few minutes,  think of the many lives we know, that were destroyed by domestic violence, especially children.

On a Friday Dec 6, I was trying to write a reflection on a train from Toronto, before presenting it at a meeting in Montreal that evening and was having one hell of time keeping my eyes dry.  Dec 6 was the anniversary when  Papine? shot those women in Montreal and a few years after  my sister Agnes was murdered  from domestic violence. I could only imagine what became of those women families, because ours was never the same again. Agnes was beaten on her pregnant stomach by her husband with a broom handle, because he did not want the baby. 

Jackson Katz  wrote a book titled The Macho Paradox regarding domestic violence. Jackson research indicated that most domestic violence is not a woman's problem, but that of men and they fail to address it.

The world seems to be dominated by men, who seldom want to share it with their wives. So support against domestic violence  comes from mostly women  and some men. It is challenging for change to occur with only women support, but it does happen.  Women rights in the Canadian constitution in 1982 is significant to assist children  in  a separation and divorce scenario. 

There is a women's centre at our university. When it was first opened 25 years ago, the doors were always locked and men were not allowed. Now the door is kept open 24/7  and sometimes I see men sitting on the chesterfield reading. So much has changed with trust.

In cases of domestic violence, I believe women should take control of their lives and the law should deal with the men. But not only  men are abusers in domestic violence.

After reading what occurs on GNI political, it takes great courage to share personal issues  and you are to be highly commended  for doing so. It is a struggle for our women friends to rebuild their lives after domestic violence, but it does happen in time.  

On my post regarding The Guyanese Culture, it is my hope that we can support each other, as was done here,  with kind words when someone makes themselves vulnerable by sharing personal issues on GNI, instead of destroying,  as domestic violence tends to do.

Make your son the center of your life.          

I was not thinking of him. Yes I met him for a moment about 5 years ago. 

I remember him. He  is a little guy...handsome, very charming and agreeable. I would not envision him being mean. I was thinking of another guy. Well, you never know...his loss. I wish both of you luck. At least you share a son so no grudges...

Marry that white scientist. If my wife leaves me I am getting a mail order bride from the Ukraine or somewhere I have never been. I do not care if she ever went to school as long as she looks good!

Stormborn posted:

Marry that white scientist. If my wife leaves me I am getting a mail order bride from the Ukraine or somewhere I have never been. I do not care if she ever went to school as long as she looks good!

I know a White guy who did just that, hot young chick, but the US embassy refused her a visa for over four years now citing the validity of the relationship.  He is in a pickle as the girl don't want to be married unless she come here.

ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:

Marry that white scientist. If my wife leaves me I am getting a mail order bride from the Ukraine or somewhere I have never been. I do not care if she ever went to school as long as she looks good!

I know a White guy who did just that, hot young chick, but the US embassy refused her a visa for over four years now citing the validity of the relationship.  He is in a pickle as the girl don't want to be married unless she come here.

there are too many good women wanting a good man and coming to the US is incidental. If she is being a nit.. try some place else. Honesty and a rapport as to what to expect should be agreed on. Begin with a lie and the lie becomes apparent...

Stormborn posted:
ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:

Marry that white scientist. If my wife leaves me I am getting a mail order bride from the Ukraine or somewhere I have never been. I do not care if she ever went to school as long as she looks good!

I know a White guy who did just that, hot young chick, but the US embassy refused her a visa for over four years now citing the validity of the relationship.  He is in a pickle as the girl don't want to be married unless she come here.

there are too many good women wanting a good man and coming to the US is incidental. If she is being a nit.. try some place else. Honesty and a rapport as to what to expect should be agreed on. Begin with a lie and the lie becomes apparent...

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

Prashad posted:
Stormborn posted:
ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:

Marry that white scientist. If my wife leaves me I am getting a mail order bride from the Ukraine or somewhere I have never been. I do not care if she ever went to school as long as she looks good!

I know a White guy who did just that, hot young chick, but the US embassy refused her a visa for over four years now citing the validity of the relationship.  He is in a pickle as the girl don't want to be married unless she come here.

there are too many good women wanting a good man and coming to the US is incidental. If she is being a nit.. try some place else. Honesty and a rapport as to what to expect should be agreed on. Begin with a lie and the lie becomes apparent...

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

I think you are projecting your own peculiarity on the world. I have lived among Eastern European women most my life. I lived with a few.  They are no different from anyone in wanting a good man with some ambition. I have a few who have been long time friends from school to now. I trust them enough to know I can depend on them to come and find me in any backwoods dive if I need to be rescued.  I do not doubt everyone like to be with those who share a culture and an identity. But most of us live in mixed societies and in professional worlds where only who we are as people matters.

Stormborn posted:
Prashad posted:

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

I think you are projecting your own peculiarity on the world. I have lived among Eastern European women most my life. I lived with a few.  They are no different from anyone in wanting a good man with some ambition. I have a few who have been long time friends from school to now. I trust them enough to know I can depend on them to come and find me in any backwoods dive if I need to be rescued.  I do not doubt everyone like to be with those who share a culture and an identity. But most of us live in mixed societies and in professional worlds where only who we are as people matters.

I agree with you, you cannot judge like that.  Nuff Guyanese men and women marry people to come over here and screw them over after they got their visas!

Anyway, I will stick to me Guyana brown sugar coolie gyals.  I like lil Gilbaka curry every so often!  I find Indo-Guyanese female most appealing regardless of the headache they give you sometimes!!

ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:
Prashad posted:

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

I think you are projecting your own peculiarity on the world. I have lived among Eastern European women most my life. I lived with a few.  They are no different from anyone in wanting a good man with some ambition. I have a few who have been long time friends from school to now. I trust them enough to know I can depend on them to come and find me in any backwoods dive if I need to be rescued.  I do not doubt everyone like to be with those who share a culture and an identity. But most of us live in mixed societies and in professional worlds where only who we are as people matters.

I agree with you, you cannot judge like that.  Nuff Guyanese men and women marry people to come over here and screw them over after they got their visas!

Anyway, I will stick to me Guyana brown sugar coolie gyals.  I like lil Gilbaka curry every so often!  I find Indo-Guyanese female most appealing regardless of the headache they give you sometimes!!

You men are into some good using from those ladies.

ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:
Prashad posted:

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

I think you are projecting your own peculiarity on the world. I have lived among Eastern European women most my life. I lived with a few.  They are no different from anyone in wanting a good man with some ambition. I have a few who have been long time friends from school to now. I trust them enough to know I can depend on them to come and find me in any backwoods dive if I need to be rescued.  I do not doubt everyone like to be with those who share a culture and an identity. But most of us live in mixed societies and in professional worlds where only who we are as people matters.

I agree with you, you cannot judge like that.  Nuff Guyanese men and women marry people to come over here and screw them over after they got their visas!

Anyway, I will stick to me Guyana brown sugar coolie gyals.  I like lil Gilbaka curry every so often!  I find Indo-Guyanese female most appealing regardless of the headache they give you sometimes!!

You men are into some good using from those mail order ladies.

ba$eman posted:
Stormborn posted:
Prashad posted:

You folks stay away from mail order Eastern European women. They are all about money and position in society if the male is not Eastern European. Stay away from mail order white Latin women also they are obsessed with getting a white American male with blue eyes.

 

I think you are projecting your own peculiarity on the world. I have lived among Eastern European women most my life. I lived with a few.  They are no different from anyone in wanting a good man with some ambition. I have a few who have been long time friends from school to now. I trust them enough to know I can depend on them to come and find me in any backwoods dive if I need to be rescued.  I do not doubt everyone like to be with those who share a culture and an identity. But most of us live in mixed societies and in professional worlds where only who we are as people matters.

I agree with you, you cannot judge like that.  Nuff Guyanese men and women marry people to come over here and screw them over after they got their visas!

Anyway, I will stick to me Guyana brown sugar coolie gyals.  I like lil Gilbaka curry every so often!  I find Indo-Guyanese female most appealing regardless of the headache they give you sometimes!!

You can take that jangat and family intrusions. I am so over that! 

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